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LOS ANGELJiS

LBRARY

COLONIAL CONFERENCE, 1907.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

OF THE

COLONIAL CONFERENCE,

1 9 0 7.

(Papers laid before the Conference are printed separately in [Cd. 3524].)

{Sr^eenteD to fiotf) ^omti of I^AVliammt bp ComnmnH of ^19 iVtaie^ttf.

May 1907.

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[Cd. 3523.] Price os. Od.

TABLE OF CONTENTS.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

Date.

April 15

April 17
April 18 -

April 20 -

Api il 23

April 25

April 26

April 30

May 1

May 2

May 6

May 7

Mav 8

Muv y

Mav 14 -

Subjects.

ii-age.

Openiiic; Meeting. Address by the Prime Minister welcoming'
the Colonial Prime Ministers, and their replies. Position of
Colonial Ministers other than Prime Ministers

Constitution of the Conference. Organisation of Colonial Office

a. Constitution of the Conference - - .

b. Colonial representation on Committee of Imperial Defence -

a. Constitution of the Conference - - -

b. Military Defence - . - - -

a. Military Defence - - - - -

b. Naval Defence . - . . .

a. Emigration . . . . -

b. Naturalization .-..-.

c. Double Income Tax . . . .

d. Profit on Silver Coinage -----

e. Decimal currency and Metric System - - -

Imperial Court of Appeal -----

Preferential Trade - - - - -

Preferential Trade ------

Preferential Trade - . - - -

Imperial Surtax on Foreign Imports - - - -

Preferential Trade ------

Preferential Trade and Commercial Relations - - -

a. Imperial Surtax on Foreign Imports - -

b. Coastwise Trade . -

c. Commercial Treaties

d. Naval Defence ------

e. Uniformity in Trade Marks and Patents - -

f. Uniformity in Trade Statistics - - -

g. Unifoimity in Company Law - - - -
h. Reciprocity in admission of Barristers to practice -

i. Reciprocity in admission of Land Survej'ors to practice

a. Pro|iosal for a surtax on Foreign Imports to create Common

Fund for Imjierial purposes . - - -

b. International Penny Postage - - -

c. Imperial Cable Communication - - . -

d. Naturalization - . - - -

c. Naval Defence ------

_/'. Double Income Tax - . - -

(/. Profit on Silver Coinage - - - - -

h. Islands of the Pacific - . - -

a. Improvement of Mail Communication with Australasia, via

Canada -------

b. Newfoundland Fisheries Question - -

r. Wireless Telegraphy Convention - - - -

d. Organisation of Colonial Office. Interchangcof Permanent Staff

3

24

49
83

86
94

122

128

152

178
183
190
192

199

227

252

295
351

356

399

*43
445
467
469
484
490
491
491
502

509
529
533
533
541
543
546
548

565

587
601
611

The Agenda pro])Osed for the Conference of 1907 will be fo\iud in [Cd. 3337] and further
]>a[)ers were published in [Cd. 3340].

The Summary of the Pro(^eedings of the Conference an<l the Precis arc published iu [Cd. 3104]
and [Cd. 3406].' .

The preliminary correspondence will be found iu [Cd. 2785] and [CM. 2973].

'A

111

INDEX.

CO
CM

Appeals, Jiidicidly \y\i. 200-226.

Colonial Judges on Court, of Final

Appeal, pp. 213, 215-21".
Commonwealth Constitution Act, appeals

under, pp. 204-20(5, 20i», 211, 212, 214.
Conference as to Ap])eals in 1901, |)p. 200,

201, 203.
Defects In existing system, pp. 202, 207,

210, 212-214, 217, 21H, 22.3.
Imperial Court of Ajipoal, pp. 200—203,

212, 2 IB, 217, 223. 221-226.
Judicial Committee and House i>f Lonls,

relative positions of, pp. 201-207, 210,

214, 21.5, 22.5.
South African Appeal Court, pp. 207-209,

910 '^'^l *>•>'> 224

Barristers, reciprocity in ;ulmission of, to
practice, pp. 491 -.502.

Cable Communication, Imperial, p. 533.

Canadian cattle, importation of, p. 41.5.

Mr. Chamherlain, Telegram expressing sym-
pathy with, p. 23.

Coaslicise Trade, pp. 446-4(57.
Australasian, pp. 454-4.58.
In the Pacific, pp. 460-462.

Colonial Conference (1887), pp. 4, 229-232
2.54, 281.

Colonial Conference (Ottawa, 1894), pj). 231,
232, 281, 283.

Colonial Conference (1897), pp. 6, 8, 14, 73,
231,232. ' -

Colonial Conference (1902). pp. 6, 8, 14, 15,
17-21, 2.5," 3.5, 41, 47, 57, 73, 87,99, 143,
228-232, 248, 256-259 ,304, 325, 356, 410-
413,426-432.

Committee of Imperial Defence, Colonial
re|)resentation on, pp. 83, 84, 107, 117, 118,
120, 121.

Company Law, Uniformity in, p. 491.

Constitution of the Conference, pp. 2(>-48,
49-94.

Colonial Ministers other than Prime

Minister, position of, ])p. 1.5-17, .50-55,

84, 85, 88.
Colonial Office, pp. 28-31, 35,38,39,41,

42, 44-4(>, 55, 63-77, 83, 90-93.
" Dominions " instead of Colonies, pp. 79-

83, 89.
(iovcrnors, constitutioiuil position of,

pp. 37, 46.
High Commissioners and Agents-(ieneral,

pp. 31, 34, 35, 69-71, 73, 7.5, 1.5(5, 162,

168, 169.
Imperial Conference, pj). 27, 29, 38, 47, 52,

82, 88, 90.
Imperial Council, pp. 25-27, 29, 31-33,

35-37, 45, 88.
Interval between Conferences, pp, 5(>-58,

61, (52.
Mr. Lytteltou's despatch, pp. 29, 35, 36,

67.

E 48G68. Wt.

Constitution of the Conference — conl.

Prime Minister of United Kiiigdont, as
President of Conference, pp. 10, 40,
42-44, 46, 52, 54, .59-(51 ; proposed con-
trol by him of Secretariat, p[). 28-30,
34, 39, 40, 4.3. 44, 63, 64, 66-69, 72, 91.

Procedure of Conference, pp. 14, 15,24-26,
61.

.Secretariat of Conference, pp. 27-3.5, .39—
47, (52-77, 90-92, 284, 297.

Sul)sidiarv Conferein'cs, pp. 6, 9, .39, 77-80,
92-91, '181, 200, 485, 528.

Copyright, p. 489.

Decimal Currency, pp. 192-195.

Defence {Military), pp. 94-120, 123-128.

Arms and Annnunition, manufacture in

the Colonies, pp. 101, 105, 108, 133, 134 ;

identity of pattern, pp. 98, 101. lOH.
Cadet movement, p]). 106, 107, 109, 113.
Colonial troops for general service, pp. 99,

100, 108, 112, 114-116.
Exchange of militarv units within the

Empire, pp. 103, 109, 110-112.
Exchange of Officers, pp. 97, 100, 103,

104, 109, 110, 113.
General Staffi. pp. 96, 97, 100. 103, 108,

110, 111, 11(5-119.
Military Organisation of Empire, i)p. 97-99,

102,' 108.
Military Schools, ]>. 101.
Military Stores, purchase of through War

Office, pp.98, 101, 106.
Reserve of Officers, p. 98.
Rifle Clubs, p. 107.
South African Defence, pp. 11 1-1 14.

Defence (Naval), pp. 128-151, 469-483,
.541-2.

Australasian Xaval Agreement, pp. 128,

132, 136.
Coaling facilities for His Majesty's Ships

pp. 131, 137, 145, 146.
Defence on American Lakes, p. 140.
Dock and Harbour Accommodation, pp.

131, 132, 136, 137, 141, 143, 141. 146.
150.

Naval Contributions, Colonial, pi>. 130,

132, 13(5, 1.38. 1.39-144. 14(5, 147.
Reserves, Colonial Xaval, pp. 112, 110.

142. 143-146, 148, 1.50, 470(ipiestion ot

payment), pp. 138, 149.
Simonstown Dock, jip. 143, 150.
Sfinailnms, separate Colonial, pp, 130, 13;,

135, 142, 146, 474, 478.
Submarines, pp. 131, 142, 469, 473, 477»

482.
Wireless Telegraphy, p. 140.

Emigration, pp. 153-178, 292, 323, 344.
Alien immigration, j)]). 161, 1(54, 166.
Building trade, pp. 170, 382, 384.
Child emigration, pp. 172, 175.
Colonisation by large bodies, j>. 174.
Emigrants' Infornnition Office, ]ip. 1.56-

1(50, 1(56-169, 172-174, 17(5.
Emigration Agencies, pp. 170, 172.
Inter-departmental Committee (Report),
pp. 153, 161, 172, 176.

a 2

IV

EmigvatioH — coat.

Labour, white and coloured, relative advan-
tage, pp. 158, 159, 161, 16i, 165.
Relative cost, pp. 164, 165, 167.
Means of extending, pp. 172, 174-178.
Queensland sugar plantations (employment

of white labour), pp. 156-160.
United States, emigration to, compared
with Canada, p. 170. ,

His Majesty the King, message from and reply,

pp. 3, 4, 23.
Income Tax, Double, pp. 183-190, 196-198.

De Beers Company, pp. 184-186, 188-189.
Interchange of rcrmajicnt Staf, pp. 611-621.
Land Surveyors, reciprocity in admission of, to

practice, pp. 502-506.
Mail Conimiimrations, improvement of, with
Australasia via Canada, pp. 565-586, and
see under Preferential Trade.
Metric System, pp. 192-195.
Naturalization, Imperial, pp. 178-182, and

pp. 533 -541.
Naviffation Conference. See Shipping Con-
ference.
Neicfoundland Fishery question, pp. 587-600.
New Hebrides Convention, pp. 548-563.
Organisation of Colonial Office, pp. 611-621.
See Colonial Office under Constitution of
Conferenee.
Pacific, British Interests in the, pp. 548-563.
Patents, uniformity in, pp. 484-489.
Penny Postage, International, pp. 529-533.
Preferential Trade, pp. 33, 228, 432, 434-441.
British exports of manufactured goods,

pp. 364, 365.
British shipping, British goods carried in,

p. 433.
Duties on food and raw materials, pp. 233,

266, 318-322, 347, 405, 406.
Duties on wine, spirits, and tobacco, pp.
286-289, 291, 320, 321, 343, 345-347,
350, 417.
Commercial representatives in British

Colonies, pp. 272-274, 323, 390.
Communication with Australasia via
Canadii, pp. 276-279, 323, 344, 565-586.
Dumping, pi>. 242, 243.
Fiscal independence of Colonies, pp. 306,

307.
Foreign trade subsidized, pp. 243-245, 249,

250, 270, 290, 322, 391-395.
Free Trade within the Empire, pp. 318,

40S, 423.
Government Contracts, preference to British

manufacturers, p. 348.
Imperial and foreign trade statistics,
pp. 239-251, 256-7, 264-5, 267-8, 286,
298-301, 311-2, 318-9, 327-330, 332,
338, 350, 364 seq., 410, 416, 441.
Import duties on corn, pp. 381, 383.
IncMcasc of Cotton Trade, p. 386.
Inter-iinperial communication, improved,
i)!). 174, 23H, 263, 274-9, 292-3, 323,
351, 352, 390-396, 400, 407, 509-529.
Intcrniediato tarilf (Canada), p. 288, 414.
Market, British, value of, pp. 235, 255.

Preferential Trade — cont.

" Political eft'ect of system of preference,

p. 400, seq., 419, seq.

Preference not Protection, nor intended to

raise price of food, pp. 266, 269, 321,

324, 326.

Protected Countries, British trade with,

pp. 310, 375.
Reciprocal preference between Colonies,
pp. 258-9, 262, 281, 283, 287-288, 304,
347, 484.
Restriction of preference to goods in

British Shipping, pp. 260, 314.
Retaliation, pp. 248, 254, 256, 310.
Shi])ping, British, pp. 237, 308, 329, 389.
Subsidies to shipping, pp. 174, 176, 177,
2(i3, 270-1, 274, 290,328, 339, 391, 392,
396.
Suez Canal Dues, pp. 263, 274-276, 323.
Surtax on foreign imports for Imperial
purposes, pp. 231-2, 281, 283-4, 324,
351-4, 443-446, 509-529.
Tariffs, Colonial Preferential —

Australia, pp. 257-262, 293, 313-

316, 325-6, 342-3.
South Africa, pp. 263, 281-286, 304,

312, 320,348, 361.
Canada, pp. 234, 288, 312-3, 409,

413, 414.
New Zealand, pp. 259, 261-2, 266-7,

312.
India, pp. 236, 297-303, 345.
Treatv questions and preferential trade,

pi.."292, 293, 350.
Wages and hours of labour in United
Kingdom and protectionist countries,
p. 375.
Wheat, price of, afl'ected by duty, pp. 376-

380.
White Labour Clause in Australian Pre-
ference Bill, pp. 260, 293, 301-2, 314,
325, 331-2.

Publication of Proceedings, pp. 8-9, 1 3, 1 8-22,
102, lll-l'l2, 117, 120,351,541.

Resolutions of Conference. See p. \'.

Submitted to Conference. See [Cd. 3337].

Mr. Scddon, Resolution of regret at death of,
p. 48.

Shipping Conference, pp. 6, 10,21-2,302,328,
447, 450, 454, 456.

Silver Coinage, profits on, pp. 190-192, 546,

547; Colonial Mints, 191.
South African Federation, pp. \2. 78, 113-4,

145, l'47, 270, 286, 339.
Stamp Charges on Colonial Bonds, pp. 195,

196.
State and Provincial (jovrrnments in Australia

and Canada, ])osition of, pp. 92-94.
Surveyors, Reciprocity in admission of, to

practice, pp. 502-506.
Stock Act, Colonial, pp. 195, 196.
Trade Marks, Uniformity in, p. 488.
Trade Statistics, Uniformity in, p. 490.
Treaties, Consultation of Colonies, pp. 41, 42,

483.
Treaty Obligations, pp. 467, 483.
Wireless Telegraphy Convention, pp. 601-610.

RESOLUTIONS

The following Resolutions were unanimously agreed to
by the Conference, except where otherwise stated :—

I.

Constitution of the iMPERi.Ui Confki{ence.

Tliat it Avill be to the advantage of the Empire if a Conference, to be April 20.
called the Imperial Conference, is held every four years, at which questions See p. 94.
of common interest may be discussed and considered as between His
Majesty's Government and His Crovernments of the self-governing Dominions
beyond the seas. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be
ex officio President, and the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Dominions
ex officio memljers, of the Conference. The Secretaiy of State for the C'olouies
will be an ex officio member of the Conference and will take the chair in the
absence of the President. He will arrange for such Imperial Conferences
after communication Avith the Prime Ministers of the respective Dominions.

Such other Ministers as the respective Govermnents may appoint will
also be members of the Conference — it being imderstood that, except by
special permission of the Conference, each discussion will be conducted by
not more than two representatives from each Government, and that each
Government will have only one vote.

That it is desirable to establish a system by which the several Govern-
ments represented shall be kept informed during the periods between the
Conferences in regard to matters which have been or maj'- be subjects for
discussion, by means of a permanent secretarial staff, charged, under the
direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, with the duty of ol)taining
informaiion for the use of the Conference, of attending to its resolutions^ and
of conducting correspondence on matters relating to its affairs.

Tiiat upon naatters of importance requiring consultation between two
or more Governments which cannot conveniently be postponed until the next
Conference, or involving subjects of a minor character or such as call for
detailed consideration, sul)sidiary Conferences should be held between
representatives of the Governments concerned specially chosen for the
purpose.

11.

CoLONi.\L Representation on the Committee of Imperial Defence.

That the Colonies be authorised to refer to the Committee of Imperial April 20.
Defence, through the Secretary of State, for advice any local questions in See p. 121.
regard to which expert assistance is deemed desirable.

That whenever so desired, a representative of the Colony which may
wish for advice should be summoned to attend as a member of the Conmiittee
during the discussion of the questions raised.

III.

General Staff for the Service of the Empire.

That this Conference welcomes and cordially approves the exposition April 23.
of general principles embodied in the statement of the Secretary of State for See p. 128.
War, and, without wishing to commit any of the Governments represented,

a 3

VI

recognises and affirms the need of developing for the service of the Empire
a General Staff, selected from the forces of the Empire as a whole, which
shall study military science in all its branches, shall collect and disseminate
to the various Governments military information and intelligence, shall
undertake the preparation of schemes of defence on a common principle, and,
without in the least interfering in questions connected with command and
administration, shall, at the request of the respective Governments, advise as
to the training, education, and war organisation of the military forces of the
Crown in every part of the Empire.

IV.

Emigration.

April 25. That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to jDroceed to British

See p. 177. Colonies rather than foreign countries.

That the Imperial Government be requested to co-operate with any
Colonies desiring immigrants in assisting suitable persons to emigrate.

V.

Judicial Appeals.

April 26. The Conference agreed to the following finding : —

See p. 225. The Resolution of the Commonwealth of Australia, " That it is desirable^

to establish an Imperial Court of Appeal," was submitted and fully discussed.

The Resolution submitted l3y the Government of Cape Colony was
accepted, amended as follows : —

This Conference, recognising the importance to all parts of the Empire

of the appellate jurisdiction of His Majesty the King in Council,

desires to place upon record its opinion —

(1) That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects beyond the
seas it is expedient that the practice and procedure of the Right
Honourable the Lords of the Judicial Committee of the Privy
Council be definitely laid down in the fonn of a code of rules and
regulations.

(2) That in the codification of the rules regard should be
had to the necessity for the removal of anachronisms and anomalies,
the possibility of the curtailment of expense, and the desirability
of the establishment of courses of procedure which Avould minimise
d.elays.

(3) That, with a view to the extension of uniform rights of
appeal to all Colonial subjects of His Majesty, the various Orders in
Coimcil, instructions to Governors, charters of justice, orcbnances,
and proclamations iipon the subject of the appellate jurisdiction of
the SovereigTi, should be taken into consideration for the purpose of
determining the desirability of eqiialising the conditions which gave
right of appeal to His Majesty.

(4) That much uncertainty, expense, and delay would be
avoided if some portion of His Majesty's prerogative to grant special
leave to appeal in cases where there exists no right of appeal were
exercised under definite rules and restrictions.

The following Resolutions, presented to the Conference by General Botha
and supi)orted by the representatives of Cape Colony and Natal, were
accepted :—

(1) That when a Court of Appeal has been established for any
group of Colonies geographically connected, whether federated or

vu

not, to wliicli appeals lie from the decisions of the Supreme Courts
of such Colonies, it shall be competent for the Legislature of each
such Colony to abolish any existing right of appeal from its Supreme
Court to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

(2) That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shall bo final,
but leave to appeal from such decisions may be granted by the said
Court in certain cases prescribed by the statute under which it is
established.

(3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it from the
decision of such Aj^peal Court shall not be curtailed.

VI.

Preferential Trade.

[The follou-'uKj h'esolutiona of iha Conference of 19(J- were reaffirmed May 7.
hi) the Members of the Conference, unth the exception of His Majestifs See p. 429.
Government, who teas unahh' to give its assent, so far as the United
KiiKjdoni was concerned, to a reaffirmation of the Resolutions in so far as
they imphj that it is necessary or expedient to alter the fiscal system of the
United Kingdom?^

1. That this Conference recognises that the principle of preferential
trade between the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond
the seas would stimulate and facilitate mutual commercial intercourse, and
would, by promoting the development of the resources and industries
of the several parts, strengthen the Empire.

2. That this Conference recognises that, in the present circumstances of
the Colonies, it is not practicable to adopt a general system of Free Trade as
between the Mother C'oimtry and the liritish Dominions beyond tlie seas.

3. That with a view, however, to pronaoting the increase of trade within
the Empire, it is desirable that those Colonies which have not already
adopted such a policy should, as far as their circumstances permit, give
substantial preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of the
United Kingdom.

■i. That the Prime Ministers of the Colonies respectfully urge on His
Majesty's Government the expediency of granting in the United Kingdom
preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of the Colonies, either
by exemption from or reduction of chities now or hereafter imposed.

5. That the Prime Ministers present at the Conference undertake to
submit to their respective Governments, at the earliest opportunitj% the
principle of the resolution, and to request them to take such measures as
may be necessary to give effect to it.

VII.

Commercial Relations.

That, without prejudice to the Resolutions ah'eady accepted or the May 7.
reservation of His Majesty's Government, this Conference, recognising the See p, 43S.
importance of promoting greater freedom and fuller development of com-
mercial intercourse within the Empii-e, believes that these objects iwaj be
best secured by leaving to each part of the Empire liberty of action in
selecting the most suitable means for attaining them, having regard to its
own special conditions and requirements, and that every effort should be
made to bring about co-operation in matters of mutual interest.

a 1

VIU

VIII.

Commercial Relations and British Shipping.

May 7. That it is advisable, in the interests both of the United Kingdom and

See p. 434. His Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas, that eiiorts in favour of British

manufactured goods and British shipping should be supported as far as is.

practicable.

IX.
Preferential Trade.
May 7. [The folJoicmg Resolution toas agreed to hy the memhers of the

See\>.iiO. Conference, with the exception of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, icho was absent,
and whose vote was not recorded, of General Botha, icho did not support it,
and of the representatives of Eis Majesty s Government, ivho dissented.]

That while affirming the Resolution of 1902, this Conference is of
opinion that, as the British Government, through the South African Customs
Union — which comprises Basutoland and the Bechuanaland Protectorate —
do at present allow a preference against foreign countries to the United
Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and all other British Possessions
granting reciprocity. His Majesty's Government shoidd now take into con-
sideration the possibility of granting a like preference to all portions of the
Empire on the present dutiable articles in the British tariff.

X.

Xavigation Laws and Coastwise Trade.
May 8. [The folloiving Resolution was agreed to by the members of the

See p. 466. Conference, loith the exception of Bis Majesty's Government, who dissented,
in respect of the inclusion of the icords dealing with trade between the Mother
Country and the Colonies^

That the Resolution of the Conference of 1902, which was in the following
temis, be reaffirmed : —

"That it is desirable that the attention of the Governments of the
Colonies and the United Kingdom should be called to the present state of
the Navigation Laws in the Empire, and in other countries, and to the
advisability of refusing the privileges of coastwise trade, including trade
between the Mother Country and its Colonies and possessions, and between
one Colony or possession and another, to countries in which the corre-
sponding trade is confined to ships of their own nationality, and also to the
laws affecting shipping, with a view of seeing whether any other steps should
be taken to promote Imperial trade in British vessels."

XL

Treaty Obligations.
May 8. That the Imperial Government be requested to prepare, for the

See p. 468. information of Colonial Governments, statements showing the privileges
conferred and the obligations imposed on the Colonies by existing com-
mercial treaties, and that inquiries be instituted to ascertain how far it is
possible to make those obligations and benefits uniform throughout the
Empire.

XII.

Preferential Trade Arrangements and Treaty Questions.
May 8. That all doubts shotdd be removed as to the right of the self-governing

See p. 484. Dependencies to make reciprocal and preferential fiscal agreements with each
other and with the United Kingdom, and further, that such right should not
be fettered by Imperial treaties or conventions without their concurrence.

xm.

Uniformity i\ Tuvde Marks and Patknts.

That it is desirable that His Majesty's Govemmeut, after full consulta- Muy 8.
tion with the self-goveruiag Domiuious, should endeavour to provide for such Sce p. 488.
uniformity as may be practicable iu the granting and protection of trade
marks and patents.

XIV.

Uniformity in Tkaok Statistics.

That it is desirable, so far as circuiiistancps permit, to secure greater Miiy 8.
miiformity iu the trade statistics of the Empire, and that the note prepared on Sec p. -190.
this subject bj^ the Imperial Government be commended to the consideration
of the various Governments represented at this Conference.

XV.

Uniformity in Company Law.

Tliat it is desirable, so far as circumstances permit, to secure greater Mar 8.
uniformity in the company laws of the Empire, and that the memorandum .sv^ p. 491.
and analysis prepared on this subject by the Imperial Crovermnent be
commended to the consideration of the various Governments represented at
this Conference.

XVI.

RicciPROciTY IN Admission of Land Surveyors to Practice.

That it is desirable that reciprocity should l)e established between May 8.
the respective Governments and examining authorities throughout the Empire Ser p. 506.
with regard to the examination and authorisation of land surveyors, and that
the meaiorandmn of the Surveyors' Institute on this subject be commended
for the favoural:)le consideration of the respective Governments.

XVII.

International Penny Postage.

That in view of the social and political advantages and the material May 9.
commercial advantages to accrue from a system of international penny See p. 533.
postage, this Conference recommends to His Majesty's (iovernment the
advisal)ility, if and when a suitable opportunity occurs, of approaching the
Governments of other States, members of the Universal Postal Union, in
order to ol)tain further reductions of postage rates, with a view to a more
general, and, if possible, a universal, adoption of the penny I'ate.

XVIII.

Imperial Cable Communication.

1. That in the opinion of this Conference the provision of alternative May 9.
routes of cable communication is desirable ; but in deciding upon such See p. 533.
routes, the question of the strategic advantage should receive the fullest
consideration.

2. That landing licences should not operate for a longer period than
20 years, and that when subsidies are agreed to be paid, they should be
arranged on the "standard revenue" principle — i.e., half the receipts after
a fixed gross revenue has been earned to be utilised for the extinguishment
of the subsidy and, by agreement, for the reduction of rates.

E 13(508. A

XIX.

Naturalisation.

May 9. That with a view to attain uniformity so far as practicable, an enquiry

5eep. 541. should be held to consider further the question of naturalisation, and in
particular to consider how far and under what conditions naturalisation in
one part of His jMajesty's dominions should be effective in other parts of
those dominions, a subsidiary Conference to be held if necessary under the
terms of the Resolution adopted by this Conference on 20th April last.

XX.

Development of Communications within the Empire.

May 14. That in the opinion of this Conference the interests of the Empire demand

See p. 586, that in SO far as practicable its different portions should be connected by the
best possilile means of mail comiuimication, travel, and transportation :

That to this end it is advisable that Great Britain should be connected
with Canada, and through Canada with Australia and New Zealand, by the
best service available within reasonable cost :

That for the purpose of carrying the above project into eifect such finan-
cial support as may be necessary should be contributed by Great Britain,
Canada, Australia, and New Zealand in equitable proportions.

XXI.

May 14. The members of this Conference, representing the Self -Governing Colonies,

See p. 621. desire, before they separate, to convey to Lord Elgin their warm and sincere
appreciation of the manner in which he has presided over their deliberations,
as well as of the many courtesies which they have received from him : they
desire also to put on record the deep sense of gratitude which they feel for the
generous hospitality which has been extended to them by the Government and
people of the United Kingdom.

COLONIAL CONraRENCE, 1907.

Miniites of Proceedings of the Colonial Conference, 1907. ''''''" ^"y-

15 April 1907

FIRST DAY.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Monday, 15tu April 1907.

The following Members of the Conference were present : — The Secretary
of State for the Colonies (the Right Hon. the Eai!L of Elgin, K.G.) in the
chair ; the Prime Minister of Canada (the Right Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
G.C.M.G.) ; the Prime Minister of Australia (the Hon. Alfred Deakin) ;
the Prime Minister oE New Zealand (the Hon. Sir J. G. Ward, K.C.M.G.) ;
the Prime Minister of Cape Colony (the Hon. L. S. Jameson, C.B.) ; the
Prime Minister of Natal (the Hon. R. F. Moor) ; and the Prime Minister of
the Transvaal (General the Hon. Louis Botha).

The following Colonial Ministers were present : — The Hon. Sir F. W.
Borden, K.C.M.G. (Canada) ; the Hon. Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G. (AustraUa) ;
and the Hon. Dr. Smartt (Cape Colony).

The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (the Right Hon. Sir H.
Campbell-Bannerman, G.C.B.) was present, together with the following
Members of His Majesty's Government : — The Right Hon. John ^Iorley,
CM. ; the Right Hon. R. B. Haldane, K.C. ; the Right Hon. Lord
Tweedmouth ; the Right Hon. John Burns; and the Right lion. D. Lloyd-
George. There were also present Mr. Winston Churchill, Parliamentary
Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies ; Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B.,
the Permanent Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies ; Sir J. L. Mackay,
G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the India Olhce ; the Assistant Under-
Secretaries of State for the Colonies ; the Secretaries to the Conference ;
the Private Secretaries to the Secretary of State for the Colonies and to
the Colonial representatives.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, the Members of the Conference having all
assembled, with the exception of Sir Robert Bond, who is detained for a day
or two, I assume that we may now proceed to business. Before doing so, I
have the honour to read the following telegram which has been received from
His Majesty the King : " At the iirst meeting to-day of the Colonial
" Conference, I wish you to convey to the Prime Ministers and representatives
" of my self-governing Colonies, a warm welcome on my behalf, and to

A 2

First Day. " inform tliem that I shall look forward with pleasiire to receiving them ou
15 April 1907. " my return to England. The questions which will be submitted to the
CCha T -1 " Conference for discussion, involving mattei'S of Aveighty interest, not
" merely to the Colonies there represented, but to the British Empire at
" large, will, I am sure, receive the most careful attention, and I am
" confident that the decisions arrived at will tend towards the closer luiion
" of my Colonies to the Mother Country and to each other,, and to the
" strengthening and consolidation of my Empire."

Gentlemen, may I, in a single word on nay own behalf, offer a welcome to
tliose who have come to attend this Conference. For the rest it is, I am
sure, a gratification to all — as it is especially to myself — that my Right Hon.
friend on my right has been al)le to attend this meeting, and without further
preface I will ask the Prime Minister to address the Conference.

The PRIME MINISTER : It is a great pleasure to me to respond to
the invitation of Lord Elgin that I should welcome, as I do most sincerely in
the name of His Majesty's Government, the Prime Ministers of the great
self-governing communities beyond the seas, who are now for the fourth
time gathered together in the capital of the Mother Country for consultation on
matters affecting their common interests and ours. You are all of you friends,
most of you personal friends, some of you old personal friends of myself
and the Ministers with whom you have come to confer. Sir Wilfrid Laurier
has, if I ma.y use a slaug expression of the day, a " i-ecord performance "; he has
been here on each occasion. Mr. Deakin, now speaking for the Common-
wealth of Australia, attended as Chief Secretary of the Colony of Victoria,
the earliest Conference in 1887, a gathering, which, as we all remember,
was not restricted to the self-governing Colonies or to the Prime Ministers.
Sir Robert Bond, as I^ord Elgin has said, has not yet arrived. He took part
in the previous Conference ; but the other Prime Ministers are here foi the
first time in this capacity, and I wish to extend a special greeting to General
Botha, the Benjamin of the Brotherhood, if I may use that phrase, the first
Prime i\Iinister of the Transvaal, whose presence in our councils 1 am sure
you will welcome as cordially as do His Majesty's Government. I should have
been glad if he could have been accompanied by the Prime Minister of the
Orange River Colony, l^ut that has been impossible because its constitution
coidd not be brought into effect in time, and I may perhaps throw in the
observation that there will be no avoidable delay in establishing it. The
absence of the heads of so many Governments from the sphere of their
activity, must, I am afi'aid, have occasioned great inconvenience and con-
siderable pulilic as Avell as personal sacrifices, but we sincerely trust that your
presence in council will justify these sacrifices, that it will offer solid
compensation for the long journey you have undertaken, and for the time
which you are about to devote to a discussion of the matters which are of
common concern to us all.

Gentlemen, whatever be the value and whatever be the issue of your
deliberations, it is with tlie greatest gratification that we welcoiye you, and
warm as I know your attachment and devotion to the Mother Country to be,
I can assure you the feeling of affectionate interest and jn'ide entertained
within tlie shores of the Old Country is not to he surpassed even by your
warmest sentiments. But I need not dwell \ipon tlie expression of our
cordial relations ; in fact, I am not sure that in private life those who are
imited l)y the most sacred ties of relationship and the sincerest affection gain
in the estimation of their neighliours l)y the too frequent and effusive
protestation or exhibition of their feeling towards each other. I am not
therefore disposed to occupy much of your time in mere declarations of our
friendly attachment to each other, and our coinnicm solicitude for our joint and

5

iivllvidnal interests, but I would rather follow, what I think is reallj- the First Uhj.
more sigiiilieant course, of takinsf all this for granted. s, 1^ April 1907.

You will have a long progranune of business before you, and I do not ,.

propose to do more — I do not think I am railed upon to do more — than just Campbell-
to glance at some of the matters which have brougiit you together; bull Bannekman.)
should like to observe at this point — and there is sometimes, apparently, in
the minds of men a mistake on this subject — that this is not a conference
between the Premiers and the Colonial Secretary, but between the Premiers and
members of the Imperial Government under the presidency of the Secretary of
State for the Colonies, which is a very different matter. In regard to questions
of military dei'ence, for instance, the Secretary of State for War will come
and confer with you, and the First Lord of the Admiralty, in the same way,
will be present when naval questions are discussed. On this I may saj-,
that I think the views sometimes taken of the proper relations of the Colonies
to the Mother Country with respect to expenditure on armaments have been,
of late, somewhat modified. We do not meet j'ou to-day as claimants for
monej^ although we cordially recognise the spirit in which contributions
have been made in the past, and will, no doubt, be made in the future. It
is, of course, possible to over-estimate the importance of the requirements of
the over-sea dominions as a factor in our expenditure ; but however this may
be, the cost of naval defence and the responsibility for the conduct ol' foreign
affairs hang together. On the question of emigration, a matter which is of
the utmost moment to you as well as to the Mother Country, Mr. John Burns,
the President of the Local Government Board, will join in your councils ;
and if any question should arise Avith regard to India, you will have the
advice of a most distinguished Member of Council, Sir James Mackay ; and I
am sure that you wiU be glad to see my Right Hon. friend, Mr. John Morley,
amongst xis this morning.

Then, when you come to discuss matters of finance, trade, and commerce,
my colleagues, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the
I>oard of Trade, will be present to state the views which His ^lajesty's
Government entertain on these important matters. Amongst them the
question of Preference must hold a prominent ijosition, and I am sure you
will find that my Right Hon. friends are prepared fully to recognise the
friendly action which has jjeen taken bj'' some of the Colonies, and to enter
upon this subject in the fullest and frankest manner.

I hope that an agreement may be arrived at as to many of these points,
and if in regard to others you are compelled to differ amongst yours(dves, or
to differ from us, you will agree to differ not merely in a perfectly friendly
way (so much may be assumed) but with mutual respect for the grounds and
motives on which differences of opinion may be founded. You in connnon
with us are representatives of self-governing communities. We have no
power here in this room, as you know, to arrive at any binding decisions.
If is Majesty's Government cannot go behind the declared opinions of this
country and of our Parliament. No more can you go behind the opinions
and wishes of your communities and Parliaments ; but, suljject to this
governing limitation, there remain, as I have said, and as I linnly believe,
many matters of great moment in which there is room for arrangement and
advance.

These Conferences Avere formerly more or less identiii(>d with great
ceremonial occasions. This is, I believe, the first that has been speeilically
summoned for the purpose of business. I wish to say a wonl here about a
desire that has been felt with regard to the period between the Conferences
that there should be greater means than at present to continue in the interval
the definite communications which the Conferences make necessary. We
shall hope to find some method of meeting this desire. I am not going to ,
enumerate, still less discuss and criticise, the various schemes moro or less

48«G8. A 3

6

First Day. amoilious wiiich have beea put forward, but I will just make a remark
15 April 1907. applicable to all such, proposals. We found ourselves, Gentlemen, upon

freedom and independence — that is the essence of the British Imperial

(Sir H. connection. Freedom of action on the part of the individiial state, freedom

Bavn^o/a^'^ in their relations with each other, and with the Mother Country. Anything
which militates against that principal would be wholly contrary to the genius
of our race and our political ideals, and would sooner or later be disastrous.
There are some words which perfectly express what I have in my mind and
which were used in this place five years ago by Mr. Chamberlain ; and I
cannot mention Mr. Chamberlain without expressing on my own part and the
part of my colleagues, and indeed I think I am authorised to say on behaK of
the whole of the public of this country irrespective of political opinion, our
deep and sincere regret, which I know is heartily felt all over the British
Dominions, that he is for the present unable to take an active part in our
public aifairs. These are his words to which I refer : " The link " he said
" which xmites us, almost invisible as it is, sentimental in its character, is
" one which we would gladly strengthen, but at the same time it has proved
" itself to be so strong that certainly we would not wish to substitute for it a
" chain which might be galling in its incidence."

Gentlemen, freedom does not necessarilj'- mean letting things drift, and
in my opinion some provision should be made for maintaining the impetus
which these Conferences will give to the consideration and settlement of
questions which have been discussed here. I would also refer for a moment
to the precedent that Iras recently been made for holding what I may call
subsidiary Conferences upon matters of importance. I refer to the Navi-
gation Conference that is sitting mider the presidency of my friend, the
President of the Board of Trade, and at which I observe that Sir Joseph
Ward, Sir William Lyne, and other representatives are rendering great
service in the discussion of very difficult problems. To my mind the
precedent set is of high importance, and I should like to see these ancillary
Conferences held fi'om time to time as matters arise Avhich require more
time and treatment in gi'eater detail than is possible in the Colonial
Conference itself.

Well, Gentlemen, I have no more to say. I am fully confident that
your coming here will not have been in vain. You will not judge of the
feeling entertained towards you by acclamations and festivities alone,
although of those there will be abundance, but by the mutual spirit of
friendship, the desire to stretch every point that can be stretched in order
to meet the views of each constituent part of the Empire, the desire, equally
strong I hope, to avoid prejudicing in any way the interests of each other ;
and over and above all, you will be inspired and invigorated by our common
pride in the great beneficent mission which the British people in all parts
of the world are, as we believe, appointed and destined to fulfil.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Lord Elgin, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman,
and Gentlemen, it so happens that I am about the oldest Member of this
Conference and, as has been said by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, I can
almost boast of a record performance, having been here twice, in 1897 and
in 1902, and it is not without some sense of regret I must say that I find
myself about the only man who attended those Conferences. I share
altogetlier the sentiments which have been expressed by the Prime Minister,
that it is a matter of deep regret, not only in this coimtry but all through the
Britisli Empire, that at this time the man who presided over the last two
Conferences which I attended, Mr. Chamberlain, should not be able to take
any part in public affairs ; and I am sure that I express the same sentiment
when I say that we all hope, in the most distant homes of the British Empire,

that his licalth will he quite restored, and that lie Avill take his place again in P'"' Day.

the public all'airs of tliis great country and Empire. Nothing coidd he more 'i* April 1907.

gi-ateful to us, no better commencement of this Conference could take place, ~

than the message which has been read to us coming from His Majesty the Laurier^)"*

King ; and next to this message we welcome the presence of the Prinm

Minister of the Crown. This Conference is not, as I understand it (I give

mj' owji views) a Conference simph' of the Prime Ministers of the different

self-governing Colonies and the Secretary of State, but it is, if 1 may give

my own mind, a conference between government and governments ; it is

a Confereu(^e between the Lnperial Government and the Ciovernnieuts of

the seK-governing dependencies of England. I recognise all the difficulties

which beset us ; they have been expressed by Sir Henry Campbell-

Bannerman. We all hope and we all believe in the future of the British

Empire. There are w'ays and ways by which it can be increased and

improved. We are here to discuss those questions. Upon many things

we can agree ; upon many things, I believe, we cannot agree at this

moment ; but, above all things, we all agree we all move towards the same

goal and the same end. The observations which have been offered to us

by Sir Ileniy Campbell-Banner man upon this subject have been excellent,

and could not be improved upon, 1 ain sure. He recognises that there are

things upon which public opinion is not in the same groove that it is perhaps

in the Colonies. We must recognise that there are many questi(jns xipon

which public opinion in our own respective countries may not be the same as

in this country. But upon one thing we are all agreed, and I believe that if

we can keep this in view we can never go astray, that is to say, that if the

basis of the union which now binds the British Emi:)ire remains as it is now,

a proper and always permanent recognition of the principle that every

community knows best what does for itself, then we cannot go wrong, and our

deliberations must be fruitful. This is the spirit, at all events for my part,

in which I approach the great subjects we have to discuss. The time is

not fitting to-day to take these subjects in detail, and I will confine my

few remarks upon this point to the same spirit which has inspired the

observations of the Prime Minister ; but I have only one word to say, to

express my great satisfaction that our proceedings are commencing imder

such favourable auspices.

Mr. DEAKIN : My Lord, Mr. Prime ]\rinister, and Gentlemen, the
wise and weighty words which you have been good enough to address to
us to-day, furnish a fitting opening, and, if I may be pardoned for saying
so, coming from your lij)?, the most fitting opening for a Conference whose
character and principle you have aptly defined. Your address. Sir, contains
many memora!)le sentences, summing up with felicity some of the aspects
from which this gathering will, we hojw, come to be generally regarded. .

Wc acknowledge your presence as a recognition of the principle alluded to
by juy friend and senior. Sir WiKrid Laurier, as one which we are anxious
to ui)hc)ld, that this is a Conference between governments and governments,
due recognition, of course, being had to the seniority and scope of those
governments. In addition, we owe to you a propitious and happy exposition
of the nature of this Conference for those to whom we, at all events,
naturally turn our eyes. We nuij' be pardoned for laying what might apjjear
to many residents of this country an undue stress upon the importance of
your sj^eech, not that it will fail of adequate recognition, but because to
the distant communities from whom we come, for Avhom we speak, and in
whose name alone we wish to be heard, it means much more than it can to
the people of this countr}^ accustomed as they are continuallj' to hear from
your lips political utterances relating to what 1 may term the home politics of
the United Kingdom.

A 4

8

First Day. But utterances of yourself and of leaders like yourself relating to those

15 April 1907. larger jDolitics which Ave share -with you are, first of all, rare, and next fail

to be conveyed to those Avhom we represent, as these undoubtedly Avill be.

(Mr. Deakin.) We are hapj^y to think that millions in AustraHa — I use the word, although
it is large, in reference to our population, advisedly — practically the whole
population of Australia to-morrow will have the opportunity of reading in
exteiiso the remarks wliich you have been good enougli to' make to-day.
Wliat does that mean? The subjects with which you have dealt have
probably been but lightly touched upon there since six weeks ago the
Parliament of the Commonwealth was closed in order to permit of the
attendance of its representatives at this table. During those six weeks I
venture to say, without any very intimate knowledge of detail, that local
public events in Australia have not stood still, and that the interest of our
people in those events has not diminished. Consequently the tendency has
been to overlay whatever impression was made bj^ the action of our
Parliament in adjourning to permit of the attendance of my colleague and
myself at this Conference by the more insistent demands of the everyday
politics of our country. After these proceedings close, five weeks vnW elapse
before either of us will have the opportunity of addressing the people of
Australia in order to explain what we think has been done here, and also
what has been attempted to be done. Now all this interval requires to be
bridged over by some such strong influence as you. Sir, by your address,
are, fortunately, bringing to bear. It will revive that interest of theirs in
the Proceedings of this Conference, an interest as deep as is the interest
of the people of this country ; you refresh that interest and thus enable the
Proceedings of this Conference to become to them actual, concrete, and
indeed living.

On our side of the sea, with the ample self-government that happily we
enjoy, and, perhaps, largely becai;se we are still a smaller community, our
electors, men and women both, share and share intimately with us so far as
they choose in every stage and every step of our political action. If that
intimacy be withdrawn from them, or rather, if the knowledge which enables
them to follow us step by step be withdrawn from them, those political
questions disappear over their horizon and are replaced by others closer and
more pressing, although probably of far less importance. Consequently, to
us publicity is of great importance. If this Conference is to exercise that
educational influence to which, in your concluding remarks, you referred
as one of its chief functions — if it is to exercise it at all elHciently, it can
only be by convincing Australia that the Government of Great Britain, the
Government of the Empire, realises the significance of this gathering,
however hniited its practical powers may be. That you do recognise its
importance we have proof in that you not only think fit to attend it, but
honour it by addressing to us such words of experience and counsel as you
have been good enough to speak to-day. You will, therefore, realise that
much natural anxiety felt by us has been dispelled by your appearance and
by your address, and will also perhaps realise how, at a later stage, we shall
be inclined to ask your colleagues to remember that our people (m the other
side of the world, unless kept in close touch with the proceedings of this
Conference, will not derive from it anything like the benefit we are desirous
they should obtain. The preceding Conferences, at which Sir Wilfrid
Laurier has been present, and in which he has played so honourable and
conspicuous a part, may have produced great results in this country and in
Canada, which, as compared with us, is your next-door neighbour ; but to
our communities at the Antipodes, separated by half the globe, I regret to
say that those Conferences failed of anything like their liill effect. Their
results were carefully studied by some politicians and bj^ those directly
concerned, but they made little or no impression upon our people ; and the

iinprpssiou \\]xm our people is what, in the lon^ nin, will (leteriiiino very First Day.
largely the attention paid even by public men. What the electors disreganl, 15 April 1907.

and cannot be practically invited to regard, tends always to become obscnred

by more inimodiate diMuands. ^^^'^' "'■•'*'»'"'•)

I trust that in this Conference we shall realise that although we have
been likened and happily likened to a Cabinet of Cabinets, we differ
absolutely froni all Caliinets inasmuch as we have not a tittle of executive
power ; neither legislative nor executive authority is ours ; and therefore
the strict confidence necessarily observed in Cabinets has no analogical
relation to the proceedings here. There are always risks in regard to
publicity, and there are some matters in which reticence and private discus-
sions are umloubtedly desirable ; but it appears to me that the major part
of the subjects for our discussion are not of that kind. Ijooking at our
agenda paper, 1 observe that those subjects are few, and of those few
subjects only some few parts call for secrecy. The great bulk of our deli-
berations might, as it appears to me, be held in public, or as nearly in public
as the sense of this Conference authorises. Of course there are perils in
publicity, but the greatest risk this Conference can run is the risk of being
ignored or misunderstood. The more it is now ignored, or its publication
postponed, the greater will be the liability to misunderstandings. These,
w^hen once they obtain currency, are hard to correct. Especially is this
the case when you have to travel half rouiid the globe before you begin
the task of correction, and when you undertake that task are subject to the
daily demands of local politics, Avliich, as most of us here realise, may easily
tend to conceal from constituents the Imperial issues at stake.

But, Sir, I do not rise for the purpose of endeavouring to add anything
to your address or to criticise it, though your recognition of the value of
subsidiary conferences, which would have a more technical and more detailed
character, and call for a different class of representation, you have nuide a
pregnant comment. There are many matters of this kind which can be better
dealt with by such subsidiary conferences. Some of those matters may be
so better dealt with, because such governments as Sir Wilfrid Laurier and
myself represent, not being unitary but federal governments, have a limited
though very large jurisdiction. There are questions bej^ond their jurisdiction
falling within the control of the local governing bodies — the State Govern-
ments in our case ; the provincial governments in the case of Canada. On
certain particular suljjects, such, for instance, as Education — and an educa-
tional gathering of some kind is shortly to take place here — our local
governments require to be, and ought to be, represented.

The further remark made that it is our good fortime on this occasion
not to be identified with any exceptional ceremonial is also timely. If it
did not sound imgrateful, I could wish that we had not been identified
with a London season or with a Session of the Imperial Parliament. If
possible, these Conferences should assemble when Ministers of the Imperial
Parliament are at leisure, and when the additional advantage might present
itself of our having the public attention of the people of Great Britain to
ourselves for a little time rather than come as we do now imdcr the shadow
of the great questions which are being debated in both Houses of the British
Parliament. This Conference occupies a niche quite large enough for us
individually, but too small for the great conimimities which we represent,
especially if their possibilities are to be taken into account. We are not
the representatives of to-day, though to-day we claim to speak for them ;
we are also the representatives of to-morrow, and of the day after to-
morrow, of those portions of the British Empire in which the vastest
opportunities of expansion, of aggrandisement, and of peaceful development
exist, and which in view of those possibilities desire for their own sakes,
as well as for yours, to be knit closer together. We aspire to the attainment

10

First Day. of a mutual understanding, one of those ties whicli was happily referred to by
15 April 1907. the late Lord Granville, when, following Lord Salisbury at the first Conference

in 1887, he referred to them as " ties of steel and of silk." It was at that

( r. EAKiN.j Conference, to which my memory returns, that the precedent was set which
you have happily followed by addressing us as a Prime Minister. Lord
Granville, representing the then Opposition, also did us the honour to
speak on that occasion. The chivalrous reference Avhich •you made to
Mr. Chamberlain, the statesman who lately presided over these gatherings,
may almost be taken as equivalent to a representation here of the present
Opposition in the British Parliament.

Li the future. Sir, we hope that the principle to which you have given
your adherence, which has led to your presence here to-day, will be given
a still further expansion. We may consider whether the Prime Minister of
Great Britain, if not the actual, ought not to be the titular President of all
these gatherings, so that the principle of governments conferring with
governments would be recognised. Such a course would not detract in any
sense or by any possible suggestion from any future Secretary of State
for the Colonies, and, certainly least of all, the Right Hon. statesman of
experience who occupies that post to-day, but merely in order to impress
upon the public the cardinal fact that these are meetings of governments
with governments for the sake of the Empire.

f Sir JOSEPH WARD : My Lord, Mr. Prime Minister, and gentlemen,

unlike my two friends, Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Mr. iJeakin, this is the first
occasion upon which it has been my privilege and honour to attend this great
Conference, which is looked forward to by the people whom I represent with
the deepest possible interest, and I want to say how much I appreciate the
sentiments conveyed in the address delivered by the Prime Minister. We
approach this Conference with a full recognition of the difiiculties that must
necessarily exist, not only in Great Britain, but in each of our countries, upon
matters concerning which there is very great room for differences of opinion,
and it is because of the fact in the outlying countries that those difi'erences of
opinion and difficulties attending them exist, that we are anxious to have the
benefit at the consultation and the discussion of them, of the ripened judg-
ment of the men who are responsible for the govermnent of the Empire. For
my own part I want to say how much I appreciate that reference to perhaps
a minor matter made by the Prime Minister. I refer to the Conference
which is sitting in another place for the purpose of regulating and dealing
with the Navigation Laws of the Empire, and I take the opportunity of
saying that, under the able presidency of Mr. Lloyd George, that Conference
already has dealt with some of the most complex matters, and has arrived at
decisions which, before we went into Conference, appeared to be ahnost
impossible (to my mind, at least) of solution. It is from a knowledge of
Avhat we have already done in one great dejjartment affecting various x)arts
of Britain and her possessions there, and the solutions that have been arrived
at, that I look forward with some confidence to the discussions, and the
results from those discussions, which nmst take place upon matters doubtless
of wider and greater moment and of very great difficulty that will come up
for consideration at this Conference.

New Zealand is far distant from the seat of the Empire. One arrives in
the old land and feels on every side that one is amongst New Zealanders in
the sense that they are British. The sentiment of the people, the desires
and aml)itioiis of tlie people here, though coveriug a very mucli wider area,
are very similar to what we find in our own country, and it is one of the
fine sides to being a member of the British Empire tliat one realises on
coming to tlie old land that there is amongst every class a desire to bring all
parts of our dominions as closely together as possible for the purpose of our

11

common good. I waut to say, my Lord Presideut and gentlemen, that First Day.

however one from time to time may observe that the questions of the 15 April 1907.

Colonies get drawn into the position of being su])jects for political fighting — -

either here or eisowliere, I regard the question of the future of the I'^nipire (^"

as one that should be kept entirely al)ove and clear of party warfare. There "*^''" -*""•)

must 1)6 no ([uestiou of party introduced into it. I am perfectly certain that

the members of the Imperial Government view the matter in the same light,

and I, for one, look forward with very great hope to the time when all

questions afl'ecting the Colonies may get into that happy position which the

Foreign OIKce occupies in regard to the affairs of the iMnpire. Governments

come and governments go ; parties come and parties go, but our Great

Empire we trust will last for ever ; and the continuity of policy dealing with

the great foreign affairs of this Old World is one of the things we admire

so much, and which we would much like to get to the position of, so far as

it affects the Colonies.

Sir Henry Cam])bell-l?annerman in the course of his admirable speech
expressed a desire that we should approach matters appertaining to each of
our countries without prejudice to one another. I am perfectly certain, Sir,
that that will prevail in the whole of the discussions that take place at this
Conference. I will not go into any details. The agenda is a long one ; it
contains most important matters, and I can only say that some of them I regard
as of the most vital consequence, perhaps I may say without egotism, to the
Old Country and certainly to the newer ones, that I believe the most important
matters submitted AviU be decided upon, and that the ripe judgments of
the gentlemen representing the Old Country, co-operating with the men
from the younger countries, whose positions are so often misunderstood,
will surmount difficulties that have seemed incapable of settlement. I
recognise that the machinery required for carrying on an old country with
a huge population is quite a different business to that which we have in
bringing into active life tlie younger countries for the administration
of which we are for the moment responsible. In our countries we can do
things in a day or a year that it naturally takes a long time to effect in the
Old Land, and sometimes, perhaps, we are rather restive in wondering whj'
it is that matters that we conceive to be for the good of our people in our
own portion of the British Empire, that we think might be applied to the
Old World itself, have been so long in being brought into operation. But on
examination into facts we realize that it is infinitely more difficult to turn
the machinery of the Old World such as exists to meet the diverse interests
and requirements of such a huge population, than the machinery of a
young countrjr, especially when we liave history and example by which we
can steer clear of the difficulties that present themselves to the Old Country,
and we get into a position of greater comfort in our younger communities
than can be expected to be achieved in an old land. I want to express my
regret that the ill-health of the gentleman who took such an active part in a
former Government in connection with Colonial matters has, for the moment,
laid him aside, and those sentiments, so very finely expressed by Sir Henry
Campbell-Bannerman, I think will be re-echoed certainly in the country
I represent, where a great deal of sympathy is felt in connection with
Mr. Chamberlain's iUness.

I wish to thank the Lord President and the Prime Minister for that
cordial reception which I feel that from British representative gentlemen we
would, under ordinary conditions, receive, but coming from them at this
great Conference it is to me personally a very great pleasure indeed to
acknowledge it. I know the New Zealanders Avill look forward with very
great concern to the doings, when they are made public, of this important
Conference, which I believe, and, I certainly hope, will be in the tlirection of

12

First Day. hvingiiig the Old Land and the great and growing self-governing colonies
15 April 1907. "^^0 much closer connection than they have attained now.

(Sir^ Dr. JAMESON : Lord Elgin, Sir Henry Campbell-Lanuernian, and

Joseph Ward.) Gentlemen, in the words of appreciation used by Sir Wilfred Laurier as to
the message of welcome we have received from the hands of the King, I
think he was speaking for all of iis. Again, the graceful words used in
connection with Mr. Chamberlain, who presided at the former Conference,
I am sure we all join in expressing, and I hope, before we go to-day, that
those words will take formal expression in some message of sympathy froni
the Conference to that great statesman. The representatives of the greatest
colonies have spoken, and I feel — and I think my colleagues, General Botha
and Mr. Moor, will feel — that we, representatives of South Africa, must
naturally labour under a certain disadvantage, not only on this occasion, but
on every occasion of a meeting of the Conference when these important subjects
on the agenda paper are brought up. We cannot each individually speak for
South Africa. We have not attained out destiny-, as those two great colonies,
Australia and Canada, have already done. New Zealand, I believe, can live
within itself, it requires no further consolidation, iinless it is that great
consolidation which this Conference, we hope, will take a long step
towards bringing about, that is the consolidation of the whole of the
component parts of the Empire. But we in South Africa, I hope and
1 thoroughly believe, will minimise that disadvantage by the unanimity with
which we will approach every subject which is brought forward, and we
may further get a local advantage, I think, in that if possible we, seeing
that we do suffer from that disadvantage here, will go back to our countries
in South Africa more earnest than ever in endeavouring to consolidate
our local interests, so that at our next Conference South Africa also shall
be represented by one representative. In thanking you. Sir, on behalf of
Cape Colonj^, for the kind welcome you have extended to us to-day, I wish to
say that I Avas very glad to see that, though, of course, you expressed in very
kind words of sympathy, not only of the English Government, but of the
whole of the English people with the Colonies and their representatives, you
also reminded us that it was not merely sympathy that was expected from
this Conference, but solid business. Therefore, I take it that we will get
further, propably, in this Conference than in past Conferences, that we will
get beyond the simple discussion of the methods of unity within the Empire.
I look forward with that expression of yours. Sir, and with the trouble which
you took to lightly pass over the whole of the agenda paper before the
Conference, as far as it exists at the present time, to resolutions being passed,
not merely as resolutions which may be forgotten, but resolutions put into
such a form that they will bring some real result. It is quite true, as you,
Sir, said, that of course, at this Conference, resolutions may be passed but no
action can Ije taken. But there are various kinds of resolutions, and resolutions
may be put in such a form at this C'onference — always supposing we, the
Colonial representatives, come into agreement with the representatives of
His Majesty's Government — that they can go to the various Legislatures, with
Avhom alone the power rests, and that we should be able to take some step
forward — some practical step towards further imity, not only in the sentimental
feeling, but in the practical material interests of the various component parts
of the Empire.

I thank you, Sir, again for your kind welcome.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Lord Elgin, Sir Henry ( 'ampbcU-Bannerman, and
Gentlemen, — On behalf of the Colony I represent, 1 liave to sincerely thank
Sir Henry Campbell-Banncrman, the head of your Government, for the
welcome we have received here this morning, and I sincerely hope and

lo

<J

.sinccrel.y Lelicvo that this great gathering is going to be for tlic gooil, not tirstDay.
only of the Empire as a whole, but also for the good of that little Colony ^^ -^P'"'* '^^'^•
which I have the honour of representing here this morning. ,^^ F K Moon )

General BOTILV : My Lord, may I express myself in Dutch, as I find it
a little difficult to express myself in English.

(The folloicing statement teas made hy General Botha througli an interpreter.)

The circumstances under which I am present here this morning are
someAvhat different from those under which the other Prime Ministers are
lierc. They have all been long in the saddle in the Colonies which they
represent. I have just got into the saddle and I am not lirinly seated yet.
When the invitation arrived to attend this Conference my Coverument did
not hesitate to express the opinion that the invitation should be accepteil
at once. Of course always having been the leader of the Boer popidation
there, and because the Government have now received great privileges from
the Imperial Government, it was a source of great pleasure to me to attend
this Conference on behalf of the Transvaal people, and to prove by such
attendance at the Conference that the old Dutch population of the Transvaal
Avould work ecpially loyally with the English population for the welfare of
the Transvaal and of the whole British Empire. I am very grateful for the
sentiments expressed by Sir Henry Campbell-Banuerman in his address.
I am here with an open mind on the various points raised, and with a iixed
purpose of assisting my colleagues as far as 1 can, to forward the interests
of the various portions of the British Empire.

CHAIRJMAN : Gentlemen, the rest of the business which I have to lay
before this meeting, consists of arrangements which the Conference will
have to make in order to carry out their business at the further meetings
which it will hold. Amongst those of course will be the subject to which
Mr. Deakin has referred, namely, the cpiestion of the publicity which will
attach to our meetings. I only refer to it just now to make one observation,
that it was understood between some of us who met last week — and I think I
exijlaincd it also to Sir Wilfrid Laui-ier and General Botha afterwards— that
as far as regards the proceedings of this meeting they are being recortled
verbatim, and Avill, as soon as it is practicable, be put in the hands of the
Press. The rest of that subject, it is perfectly understood, is one for the
decision of the Conference itself and not in any way for His IMajesty's
Government. The rest of this business, I take it, would, therefore, be of a
nature which the Conference would consider, if I niaj'- so exx)ress it, in
Committee, and I imagine that some of those present will not desire to be
detained.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : May I suggest that the Conference should
adjourn now, and that the other subjects as to publicity and the future sittings
of the Conference should come up for discussion at a subsequent meeting V
At the present time I wish to move a vote of thanks to the Prime Minister for
his attendance.

Mr. DEAKIN : I have pleasure in seconding that.

Sir HENRY CAMPBELI^BANNERMAN : Gentl.>nun, I am much
obliged to you for your kindness in moving this vote of thanks. I think that
I should rather like, although I do not know that it would be quite in form,
to move a vote of thanks to the Conference and to Lord Elgin for allowing

14

First Day ^le to be present, and that is much more the sentiment which I entertain than

15 April 1907. the idea that I have done any favour to the Conference by coming. It has

,jr~ been an unmixed pleasure for me to be here, and personally, individtially, to

Campbell- S^^^ ^^ official countenance to it. My whole object will be to do all I can to

Bannekmax.) further the interests of the Conference, to help in bringing it through a

successful career, in the hope that it may make a lasting impression upon the

great questions which you have to discuss.

(The Ministers of the Crown having retired, the Conference then proceeded

with its business in Committee.)

Lord ELGIN in the Chair.

Akrangement chairman : An amended agenda paper has been circulated, but I am

>iNEss. afraid even that will have to be taken subject to amendments again. Before
we get to the actual agenda, may I just say that, with regard to the days of
meeting, we have arranged, as you will see, for three or four days in a week, but
not always regularly the same days. That follows the precedent of former
Conferences, in which, though they had certain days which they aimed at,
they were not able, owing to various other engagements which the members
of the Conference had to fulfil, to keep invariably to those days. There is
another cause for a variation, namely. Cabinet meetings, which I and my
colleagues are obliged to attend. During the last Conference there Avas, I
believe, a fixed day in the u'eek on which the Cabinet meeting was
generally held. Owing to circumstances that arrangement does not prevail
so regularly now, and I shall be obliged, I am afraid, to ask the Conference
to allow me to be absent fi'om time to time without fixing a regular day ;
but I have si;)oken to the Prime Minister, and, as far as possible, he will
endeavour to avoid inconveniencing the Conference in that respect. From a
study of the proceedings at the last Conference, thoiigh they may haA^e had,
and I daresay, did have, an agenda paper something like this indicating the
days, in general, the practice was — Sir Wilfrid Laurier will correct me if
I am wrong — to fix finally at one meeting the business that was to be taken
at the next, or the next following meeting, without too great an adherence to
the general scheme. That, I think, was the practice, and, as far as the
Colonial members are concerned, it probably will be as convenient for them,
as it is almost necessary for us. We can take this agenda, therefore, as a
general scheme ; and it will be understood that it does not follow that
the particular subject piit down for April 25tli will be the subject which is
then dealt with, but Ave Avill settle far enough ahead, so that everybody may
be ready, the subjects to be taken in their order. As regards the business for
Friday of this Aveek, I should have to ask for an alteration, and it is proposed
to sit on Saturday instead of Friday. •*

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I may say that I have fixeil several engage-
ments for Saturday. The next meeting of the Conference is on Wednesday
and I suppose that is satisfactory to all.

CHAIRMAN: On Wednesday antl Tliursday we can hold meetings fur
discussion ; but on Friday I am afraid Ave cannot meet as there is a Cabinet
Council. The First Lord of the Admiralty is also engaged on Friday and
Saturday. The next thing to arrange is Avith regard to the time of the

16

meetings. I am not quite sure what the hours were on tlie occasion of the First Day.
previous Conferences. 15 April 1907.

Sir Wfl.FRID LAUlilER : From 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock. ^rBr^N^E^r

(Chainnan.)
CHAIRMAN : And not in the afternoon ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : No.

CK4IRMAN : I think we might meet at 11 o'clock and sit till half-
past 1 on the understanding that if on any occasion there was a necessity for
it we coidd arrange to sit in the afternoon. It appears to me that if the
Conference meets in the morning, a good deal of business connected with the
Conference can be got through in the afternoon separately, and in this I
think Mr. Deakin agrees because there might ])e smaller meetings in the
afternoon.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am sure we would fall in with any arrangements
as to the sittings so long as we have enough time while we are here to get
through the work.

'»

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : We will leave it in that way. Whenever
tlie Conference wishes to meet we are ready to be here.

CHAIRMAN: Then we Avill try it this week, sitting from 11 to half-
past 1 on Wednesday and Thursday.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : There is a question as to the attendance of
the gentlemen who are with the Prime Ministers and the colleagues of Prime
Ministers. I should like to have- my two colleagues present with me at the
Conference. It woidd be a great convenience to them and to me, at all
events, and I suppose also to Mr. Deakin, to have the benefit of the presence
of our colleagues.

"o^

Ml-. DEAKIN : Certainly.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Is there any objection to that ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Does not it follow from the principle which the IMme
Minister laid down to-day, that this was a consultation of governments Avith
governments. Although it is a case of one government one vote, it is
immaterial how many members of that government come so long as the
Prime JMinister of each State is the responsible spokesman who calls upon his
colleagues when he desires their assistance.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : You have expressed my own opinion on the
point.

CHAIRMAN : May I explain my position in this matter ? When I
received the despatch fi-om Canada asking that the Ministers who came from
Canada should be treated as members of the Conference, I naturally referred
to the proceedings of the last Conference, and I found that it had been dis-
tinctly ruled that the Conference was a Conference between the Prime ^Ministers
and the Secretary of State. This particular question of the admission of other
Ministers was taken exception to at the last Conference, not by His Majesty's

16

First Day. Government, or by the representatives of it, but by one of the other repre-
15 April j907. seutatives, and Mr. Chamberlain ruled that if the Conference was not nnani-

mous on the point they could not be admitted. Speaking for His Majesty's

Arrangement Govermnent we felt that the Ministers from the Colonies under the
OF isiNEss. present system really occupy the same position as my own coUeages who
(t airmail.; come into the Conference on any occasion on which any subjects in which
they are interested are brought up, and they sit here and take part in the
debates, as I imderstand it. The only difference is that they do not sit at
the table and take part in the general debates unless the subject of them is
one in which they are specially intei-ested. Personally, I should be only
too pleased to see all the j\Iinisters from the Colonies who are good enough
to attend these meetings in this countrj^ sitting at our table. The only
thing I would like to point out as a matter of convenience is this : AVe are
at present an assembly of eight gentlemen sitting round this table. The
conversations which can take place between eight people sitting round a
table can be conducted in a more familiar strain and with less formality
than those of a larger meeting. I had rather Avished to take up the whole
of this subject in connection with the matter of the next meeting and the
constitution of the Coirfei-ence as a whole ; but as Sir Wilfrid Laurier has
mentioned it I have pointed out what I think ought not to be overlooked.
As far as this Conference is concerned, if the Colonial representatives desire
that other members beside the Prime Ministers shoidd be recognised as full
members of the Conference in a more distinct way than they already
are — because I consider that they are already so recognised — I
personally have no objection except on the pure matter of convenience.
I quite recognise that there is a difference between your colleag^les and
mine. My colleagues have other occupations here, and your colleagues
come specially for this Conference and nothing else, and they naturally
would desire to see and hear all that is going on. I would suggest, as a
possible solution of the matter, that if all Ministers from the Colonies are
recognised as full members of the Conference, that is to saj^, with the full
right of entry to this room, it should be understood that the Prime ]\IiDisters
have the assistance, for the purpose of a debate, of the one Minister interested
in the subject, and that the others, though present, should not intervene. I
only suggest that as a possible solution in order to keep the numbers of the
Conference within bounds. I hope the members present will clearly
understand that this is a point on which I do not wish to give any ruling
whatever ; but I was following the principle laid down by Mr. Chamberlain.
If the Conference itself desires the presence of others, I, of course, acquiesce.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would say that Mr. Chamberlain ruled, I
think rather against his own inclination, that as a question of order, the point
being taken, as other Ministers had not been invited they should not be
admitted. I think he was rather favourable to their being present. I ask
the question now, because at this Conference the whole subject of the
constitution of the Conference is one thing to be discussed, and it woidd
apply to the next one. I think it would be verj^ satisfactory *to Mr. Deakin
if he could have a colleague of his with him, and it would be very satisfactory
to me if I coidd have my two colleagues so that we might have the benefit
of their assistance.

Mr. DEAKIN : I accept the suggestion of His Lordship.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : And I, certainly.

CHiVIRMAN : My suggestion is that one member only will take part
iu the debate except liy leave of the Conference.

17

Mr. DEAKIN : For instance, on the question of Preferential Trade, no First Day.
doubt Sir Wilfrid Lauricr would tlesire to speak, and at the same time 15 April 1907
Mr. Fielding. So also I should desire to have the assistance of Sir William
Lyne.

Arkangement
OK Business.

CHAIRMAN : So that the two have a right to speak ?.

Sir WIT.FRID LAURIER : The Priiiie Minister has a right to speak
always, but upon the question of Defence, for instance, I should desire to
have the assistance of my colleague.

Dr. JAMESON : The next point in connection with that, which I want
to bring forward, is that General J3otha's Government have deputed Sir
Richard Solomon to act with him in the Conference, and owing to his position,
as he told us in his speech this morning, General Botha is verj'' anxious
constantly to have the advice of Sir Richard Solomon. Of course. Sir
Richard Solomon could not be a member of the Conference, or take any part
in it in any way, but I thought it possible the Conference might agree that
the Prime Ministers should have their secretaries present Avith papers, and so
on, Avhich would be a very great convenience, and is a thing which is allowed
in most other Conferences. In that w^ay Sir Richard Solomon could come in
and be a help to General Botha.

General BOTHA : If it involves a wrong principle I wiU not press it at
all, because I am a man for principles, and I do not want to lay down wrong
principles. Sir Richard Solomon is now here to assist me, and if possible I
would like to have him present, but, as I say, I do not Avant to see
wrong principles laid down for this Conference which will bind future
Conferences.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: With all due deference, and with every
desire to oblige my colleagues, I hardly think Sir Richard Solomon could give
this Conference any assistance. If he were in a position of a secretary, I
think it might have been done.

Mr. DEAKIN : The Colonial Office secretaries are here. They take no
part, though they come in freely to produce papers and supply infonnatiou.

Sir AVILFRID LAURIER : That is not taking part in the Conference.
Mr. DEAKIN : No, and that is all that is proposed in this case.

Dr. JAMESON : General Botha does not ask that Sir Richard Solomon
should open his mouth except to whisper in General Botha's ear.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is not taking part in the Conference.

Mr. DEAKIN : No. There is no objection to the secretaries being
present.

Sir WILFRID LALRU'^K : Al the last Courercnce my Secretary- used to
bring my papers and bag up to the door, but never'further.

Mr. DEAKIN : If our secretaries were present, they could pass us
papers and sort out what we wanted.

E 48668. B

18

First Day. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Are the secretaries to be admitted ?

15 April 1907.

Arkankemext chairman : I do not know ; Sir Wilfrid Laurier says it was not the

OF BusiNEri.s. practice to admit them at the previous Conferences.

General BOTHA : I will not press the point now.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : A secretary would act as a secretary, and
would come simply as an assistant to supply papers, and so forth. If Sir
Richard Solomon comes under those circumstances it would be different.

General BOTHA : I do not think Sir Richard Solomon is in the same
position.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Personally it would be a convenience to me, as I
have no colleague here, if my secretary could be handy to assist me. Of
course, I shall not expect him to take any part in the proceedings, but he
woidd be of assistance to me in referring to papers or anything of that sort.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The secretaries are always in attendance,
and if one wants anything a message can be sent out to them to bring the
necessary papers, and so on.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I believe at the last Conference the
private secretaries of the late Colonial Secretary were here in the room aU
the time.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not think the menib(;rs of the
Conference can have secretaries in attendance upon them at all times.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think, perhaps, our secretaries might be allowed
to come in. We have all of us a good deal to attend to one way or another.

CHAIRMAN : Yes, they certainly might be in attendance.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : They can be caUed in if need be.

CHAIRMAN : I think we might consider the point further about Sir
Richard Solomon, and see if Ave can make some other arrangei5ient. Then
there is the question of the publication of our Proceedings.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Mr. Deakin could give us his views upon
that question as he seems to have given some thought to the subject.

Mr. DEAKIN : The thought that I have given to it is due to our
circumstances. Distant communities are absolutely dependent upon publicity
for maintaining any real interest in the doings of the Conference and

1!)

ediicating the people on Imperial questions. I should personally be very ^"''■*' ^"3'-
glad if the Conference would lay down a general principle on the matter 15 April 1907.
of publicity, retaining the right at the request of any member of going into ^ ~~
Committee, as we have done lo-day, whi(;h means report, imless thought tit „j. lJl:sl^■E^'8.
afterwards. In the ordinary course, and on ordinarj- subjects, either the ,^ij. Ugjikin \
Press should l)e admitted, or the course pursued to-day of giving the Press a
verbatim report afterwards should be followed. Whenever it is thought that
a discussion is likely to evoke feeling here or elsewhere which would be
prejudicial to the conduct of our debates, that of course would be omitted
from the current report, and retained until the full report were published
later.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : At the last Conference we did not publish
anything except ihe bare resolutions, and for my part I have come to the
conclusion that these were very meagre reports, and that it is better that the
discussions should be published, but I am not prepared to say whether they
shoidd be published from day to day. If everything is recorded here, and if
at the end of the Conference it is published with the resolutions, I tliink the
object Avould be satisfactorilj'- served in that way. I am afraid if published
from day to day there might perhaps arise a premature discussion upon
certain matters, but I quite agree with Mr. Deakin that we shoidd have a
daily report of what is taking place and that it should be published with the
resolutions of the Conference at the end of it.

CHAIRMAN : I might read what the Secretary of State said at the
beginning of the last Conference : " I have made arrangements to have
" a fidl shorthand report of the Avhole of our proceedings and I shall
" endeavour as far as possible to arrange that each day's report shall be
" sent to each of you before the next meeting. These reports will, of
" course, be treated by all of us as absoluteljr confidential ; at all events
" for the present. What we desire is a perfectly free discussion which
" we could hardly expect if that understanding were not arrived at ;
" but at the close of your pi'oceedings we wiU then consider whether
" anything, and, if so, what, should be given to the pidilic. No doubt
" some of our conclusions will be made pid^lic, and it may possi]:)ly
" be found, on looking through the reports, that it may be desirable that
" more should be published. At all events, what T wish to explain is that
" that will be a matter for subsequent decision, and nothing will be published
" without the consent of the persons concerned." That was the arrangement,
and that is what we intended to continue. At the end of the last Conference,
as Sir Wilfrid Laurier explains, a very small part of tlie proceedings was
published. It may be that at the end of this Conference we shall wish to
publish more, but I agree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier that it woidd b(> inexpedient
to publish day bj^ day. After all, this must partake largelj' of the character
of a confidential discussion across the table, unless we are having set
opportunities like the way in which these proceedings Ijegan to-day. That,
of course, stands on a different footing ; but the ordinary course of the
procedure will be surely confidential and conversational discussion across this
table, and therefore I think it is essential that each member of the Conference
should have, not only an opportunity of seeing, but of revising, the report of
what he has said. That can always be done, and we have seen it constantly
done in the proceedings of commissions and otherwise, if you combine it, as
Sir Wilfrid Laurier proposes, with the report as a whole, but it cannot be
done day by day, as that is ahnost impracticable.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do not wish to conduct this whole argument myself,
but cannot admit the analogy between this Conference and any Royal

B2

20

First Day. Commission whether for inquiry or otherwise. The difference is fundamental.
15 April 1907. First of all, this is a Conference of representatives ; it is a Conference of
_ ~"~ representatives who have no power to do anything ; they have only power

o"" Bi''-;^NE-i'^ to discuss and recommend. Anything to be done must be authorised by
CM- D-kin) those whom they represent — that is their Governments, Parliaments, and
idtimately the electors, and it is these who need information and conviction,
if it could be imparted to them, just as much as we do. If we here succeed
in convincing each other alisolutely and return to our countries imanimous,
that amounts to a great deal, but it leaves an immense amount to be done
when Ave are endeavouring to convince majorities in our Legislatures in
b<jth Chand:)ers and majorities of our colleagues. We have then to commence
the work all over again. Want of knowledge delays it, impedes it, and
obstructs it. Secrecy appears to me foreign to the nature of this gathering.
It would be a legitimate criticism to say that if this Conference is treated
as a Parliament you will have Parliamentary speeches, and it is desirable,
perhaps, that our expressions here shoidd be reconsidered and matured, and
therefore that nothing should be completely j)ub]ished until you have had
an opportunity of revision. That is a good point, but it seems to me that
could he met by saying "If no verbatim report from day to day can be
" given, let us have a fidl report such as is given in the first columns of a
" newspaper where they are referring to the reports in the other pages.
" Let them say, ' Lord Elgin presided to-day when the question under
" ' discussion was the constitution of the Conference. A resolution to tliis
" ' effect was proposed. Sir Wilfrid Laurier followed, and in the course of
" • his remarks he took exception to such and such parts of the resolution,
" ' and submitted such an amendment, and he was followed again by
" ' Mr. Botha (or any otlier Member), who proposed this. After consideration
" ' these amendments were withdrawn and something suggested by Sir
"' ' Joseph Ward was introduced, who gave as his reasons so on ' — something
" like that."

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Who do you suggest should take the
responsiljility of making the summarj^ ?

Mr. DEAKIN : I suggest the secretaries here should prepare a summary
which they ought to submit to each member as to his own remarks, and
as a whole to the Chairman, or to yourself, as his active assistant in these
matters. It should be looked at from the point of view of the British
Government, while each man would see that the short statement submitted
to him was at all events so far correct as to convey the general drift of his
remarks.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: You would not suggest that anything
should be published in any case until after the member making the speech
had had an opportunity of seeiug what was to be pul^lished and attributed to
him.

Mr. I)EAK1N : No, but as far as I can see a great deal of our debates,
even if there was a great deal of friction, might bo carried on before all
the Press representatives of the United Kingdom, as far as I arri concerned.
^\'ith regard to the precis, each member would reqiure to see his part of it.
That coidd be done Ijeforc we left, especially if our sittings were only in the
morning, as it is only a digest of no great length. What I mean is, that
every word of that would be cabled to Australia and New Zealand ; every
morning they would know what we have been discussing ; every morning

21

tliey would know what the principal men here were proposing ; and every P''"*t Car.

few days they would hear what the final outcome had been. Then they would 16 April 1907.

have their interest kept alive. They would later see in extenso what tbey

had only before seen in epitome. Arranoememt

OF Business.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That was the procedure at the Navigation Con- ^^'- Deakin.)
ference, my Lord, and I think that to defer until the end of the Conference
the expectancy of having everything said here j)ublished would be rather a
mistake. I am inclined to suggest that in the absence of the press a synopsis
of what took place here every day is a proper thing to issue.

Dr. JAMESON : At the Navigation Conference, was it found necessary
to submit to each member of the Conference what he had said ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : There were three secretaries appointed, one
representing the Board of Trade, Sir William Lyne, and myself.

Dr. JAMESON : It was all submitted to yon ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : They prepared an outline of the proceedings, and
it was submitted to the Board of Trade, and then submitted to Sir William
Lyne and myself.

Dr. JAMESON : Before it was published ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes.

Mr. WLN'STON CHURCHH^L : Taking about half a column of a
newspaper, and this would take longer.

Mr. DEAKIN : This ought to be quite twice as long.

Sir JOSEPH Wx\RD : I think that publishing the bare resolutions, as
was done last time without a report of the discussion on them, would be a
great mistake ; the people would not know what was taking place and would
have not the slightest idea of the views of anji-hody.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I quite agree ; here is the book of the
Conference that was not given to the public.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : The papers pubhshed were not laid on the
table of both Houses of Parliament imtil two months afterwards.

'Mi. DEAKIN : The last is confidential and has not yet been laid on the
table ; that is worse still.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not see why this shoidd not be
published and given to the public as the result of the Conference. The book
we had contains the bare proceedings and the official papers, but the
discussions from day to day are contained in tliis book here. I think for ray
part that tlii^; hook should be given to the j)ublic. ^\^^at took place at the
Conference last time. Dr. Jameson, was that the stenographer took down
everything, but the reports were given to each member the following
day and corrected by the member, and so corrected they are printed in
this book.

48668. B 3

22

First Day. Dr. JAMESON : That would be tlioroughly satisfactory. The only

15 April 1907. thing I feel, with Mr. Deakin and Sir Joseph Ward, is, that people would be

very well satisfied if they got a short precis every day of some kind or

Arrangement •'.^^^ -^ '^ -^ J J

OF Business. another.

(Mr. Deakin.)

Mr. DEAKIN : Otherwise, they lose touch with it altogether, and we
have to begin all over again.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : They look for something.

Mr. DEAKIN : We live in the light of a publicity which you gentlemen
are hardly accustomed to.

Dr. JAMESON : Still more important than anything else is Avhat
Sir Wilfrid Laurier says — that that White Book, not the Blue Book, should
be published immediately after the Conference in full. That is the most
important of all.

Mr. F. R. MOOR: You do not mean that particular book there— the
past Conference — but the present one.

Dr. JAMESON : No ; on those lines.

CHAIRMAN : I understand, at any rate, that .there is an agreement that
we shall not have a verbatim report each day.

Mr. DEAKIN : I am in a hopeless minority.

Dr. JAMESON : Another thing is, we cannot get it.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think the suggestion made on the last
occasion in the words of Mr. Chamberlain is the best one, and I see no reason
to depart from it.

CHAIRMAN : This is an illustration of what was done at the Shij^ping
Conference the other day {indicating a newspaper pavmjrapli).

Dr. JAMESON : I think a very short precis might very well be trusted
to be given each day.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : We might perhaps, compromise upon
that.

CHAIRMAN : That there is to be a precis ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes.

CHAIRMAN (to Sir Francis Ilupuuod) : WiU you undertake to prepare
a precis ?

Sir FRANCIS HOPWOOD : I shall be very happy to try at the end of
each day's proceedings.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : W'c can see how that works without coming
to a formal conclusion at this moment.

23

Mr. DEAKIN : It is veiy good of you, Sir Wilfrid, liolding the views First Day.

you do, to meet us so kindly in the matter. I just took the liberty of handing 15 April 1907.

to the Secretary of State a cablegram I have just received from the Acting ^^^^

Prime Minister of the Colony, Sir John Forrest. ^^^, bcsiness.

CHAIRMAN : May I read it ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly : " Colleagues wish to express to you a fervent
" hope that the labours of the Conference will assist in promoting the
" increase of trade and commerce amongst the British peoples, the niain-
'■ tenauce of the British supremacy on the sea, and the closer union in the
" bonds of loyalty, and affection of tlie British race throughout the world.
" —Forrest."

CHiVIR]iIAN : Is there any other point ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I propose that the following telegram be
sent to ^Ir. Chamberlain : " This Conference begs to express its deep sympathy
" with you in your illness, and earnestly hopes that you may be speedily
" restored to active public life."

Dr. Jx\ MESON : I beg to second that proposition.

CHAIRMAN : No doubt the Conference wiU agree to this telegram."-'"
(Unanimously.)

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I suppose that is all that is on the pro-
gramme for to-day ?

CHAIRMAN : That is all that we can usefully do, and we %vill adjourn
to Wednesday for the consideration of the special constitution of the
Conference.

Will this do for the answer to His Majesty's telegram? "The Prime
" Ministers of Self-Govern ing Colonies present their humble duty to your
" Majesty, and desire to acknowledge gratefully your ]\Iajesty's gracious
" telegram, which will be a source of great encouragement in their labours."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is very well expressed. Sir.

CHAIRMAN : I think that is all wx can do to-day.

Adjourned to Wednesday next at 11 o'clock.

"•'■■ The reply fi-om Mr. Chamberlain was in the following terms : —
" Sincerely thank Prinic ^Ministers for good wishes ; am promised com-
plete restoration to health, in which case hope speedily resume public
work. Meanwhile gratefully appreciate kind resolution of Conference."

B i

24

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

SECOND DAY.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Wednesday, 17th April 1907.

Present :
The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G. (President).

The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime Minister

of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia and

Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Commonwealth

of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of State for

Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New

Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Connnissioner of Public Works (Cape

Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of State

for the Colonies.

Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G.,

Joint Secretary.
Mr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

CHAIRMAN : The Conference now proceeds to the active business for
which we have been assembled, and we will deal with the subjects which
have been put down for the first business meeting. From a study of the
former proceedings I rather gatlier that it has been the practice at these
Conferences to discuss a suljject not under the strict presentation of a
resolution, such as you would have in a House of Parliament, but to discuss
the subject generally, with, of course, the resolutions which may have been

2b

sent in in view, and then at the conchision of the discusfiion, to endeavour to
adjust such a representation of the decision, or an expression, at any rate, of
the views of the Conference, as may be recorded in our proceedings.

In this case therefore we start with certain rcsohitions which liave been
sent in in reply to the invitation which 1 addressed to the various Colonies,
and 1 think it would probably be the most convenient course if 1 asked one
of those representatives of the Colonies who have submitted a resolution to
open the discussion. I think that is in accordance with the practice on
former occasions. I do not know whether those who represent Australia,
New Zealand anrl Cape Colony have agreed among themselves as to the order
in which that should be done. The first on my list is the Commonwealth of
Australia, and unless it is otherwise arranged I should suggest that perhaps
Mr. Deakin would open the discussion.

Mr. DEAKIN : SubjectHo Sir]Joseph's approval and that of Dr. Jameson,
what I was about to propose was this, to pass by the resolutions as framed,
except so far as they furnish material for discussion upon them point bj''
point ; for instance, ours says, " That it is desirable to establish an Liiperial
Council." Directly we read that, the question of title is raised. Would it not
be a business-like method to take first of all the question of the title of
any future conference, discuss that and settle it ? Then it passes on to say
that the Council or Conference, or whatever it may be teniied, shall " consist
of certain members " — take that next, and decide how they are to be chosen,
or the position of other Ministers which we settled amongst ourselves on
Monday. That should be formulated, and so on, taking point by point the

various matters that these resolutions suggest,

It

shorten the discussion.

might be necessary

dealing with each in turn.

y to alter their order slightly, but 1 fancy that would

Second Daj.
17 April 1907.

(Chairman.)

CHAIRMAN : May I first point out that it puts those who have not
passed resolutions at all into rather an invidious position ? There is nothing
on record and it seems to me with all deference that wc shoidd shorten our
proceedings really if Ave had a general discussion first and saw how far we
were able to get to a general agreement on the general discussion. If that
was done I rather think the atljustment of details would be simpler. If we
take the thing at once on the ciuestion of title, we really cannot settle the
question of title without discussing the general constitution.

Dr. JAMESON : I was going to suggest that certain Colonies have put
down certain subjects to be brought forward, and of course they have thought
them of paramount importance. Other Colonies perhaps do not think them
so important, and your objection to Mr. Deakin's proposal would be met, I
think, by taking what has been put down, and then after these are finished
any representatives of the Colonies who had not brought forward any resolu-
tion would go on to consider what they wished to bring forward to cover the
ground, starting with what we have in front of us, and then practically taking
what would be amendments from those representatives who had not brought
forward any resolution on the subject.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I quite agree with Mr. Deakin that it would
save the time of th(! Conference, and be more advantageous, instead of the
Australian and New Zealand representatives submitting independent resolu-
tions, that we should agree to merge them in some form so as to endeavour to
come to a general imderstauding.

CHAIRMAN : That is the same as I proposed.

26

Second Day. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, if a discussion were to take place as you

17 April 1907. suggest, giviug aii outline of what is in the minds of the different representa-
tives, it might enable iis to arrive at some concrete form of expressing our
desire upon this important matter. For my OAvn part I am quite prepared to
fall in with whatever is the best way of arriving at a decision upon it. I
would just like to say that I am of the opinion that it is perhaps a little
prematiire, Mr. Deakin, to commence to discuss what the term should be.
We first want to see whether we are in accord upon the general principle of
establishing an Imperial Council under some name.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Would it not promote the object we have in view if
the Colonies who have brought forward these resolutions Avould in brief give
us their ideas each individuallv as to what form this should take ?

Proposed
Impekial
Council.

PROPOSED IMPERIAL COUNCIL.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Canada has made no suggestion upon this
point. I may say that in our country, as we have stated in our despatch,
we do not view it with much favour, but wo approach it with an open mind.
I would at this moment observe relative to the suggestion of Mr. Deakin that
we should take up at once the first x^roposal of the Conunonwealth of
Australia. " That it is desirable to establish an Imperial Council to consist
" of reiDresentatives of Great Britain and the self-governing Colonies chosen
" ex-officio from their existing administrations," and that the title should be
the last thing to be determined. We should know beforehand Avhat should be
the functions and the powers and duties of that Council and define those, and
then according to the functions which were deputed to it the title would
depend. It might be a Council or a Conference or anything you please, but
it seems to me that the very first thing, as Mr. Moor suggests, is that we
should settle M^hat we have in our own minds. For my own part I approach
the subject with a perfectly frank mind, but I think the suggestion made is a
good one, that the gentlemen from Australia, the Cape, and New Zealand
should give us their views in a general outline, what they have in mind as to
the functions of this Imperial Council which they think ought to be established.
That woidd bring forward at once the Avhole scope Of the discussion, and we
could determine then how we could agree, but I do not think that we should
give it a name unless we know what it is.

Mr. DEAKIN : If it be your wish, Lord Elgin, I have no possible
objection to state off-hand, and shall endeavour to do so in as few words as
possible, the general purport of this proposal. Our discussion will probably
resolve itself into some such analytical method as I just ventured to suggest.
We found in the despatch from the previous Imperial Government a proposal
to adopt the title " Imperial Council." This we iiuderstood was intended to
be conferred upon the existing Conferences without any substantial alteration
in their powers, or in the principle of their constitution. We werS prepared to
mark our appreciation of the intention by the adoption of that title. It appeared
to us a fitting cognomen for such a body, and if its constitution were
elaborated to some slight degree it might have been a judicious thing to
accept it even at this stage ; but the intention of this general resolution of
oui-s was to retain these Conferences precisely as they have existed — this
Conference as it now exists — unaltered in personnel or in procedure,
except so far as we might with advantage connect its several meetings
during the intervals of its assembling, and provide for a more efl&cient
means of keeping its members in touch with one another, and with the
Government of (h-eat Britain. Our idea was not to endow the new body

27

under -whatever title it was known, with any legislative or executive power
whatever, nor to diminish its immediate dependence upon the Governments
of the Dominions represented here ; but to provide that it should meet
periodically, consist of Prime Ministers, discuss questions of Imperial interest,
and where possible arrive at conclusions to be afterwards reconunended to its
governments and legislatures. But it should have no more power than we
possess here of itself putting into effect any decisions at which it might arrive.
Consequently, when the despatch of the Prime Minister of Canada was placed
in our hands, and the suggestions derived from the experience of that
government of the connotations of the word " Council " were put before us,
we at once agreed that if Sir Wilfrid Laurier thought fit to press that view,
for our own part there would be no objection to adopting the title which he
suggested instead of that which we had projDosed. We accepted the term
" imperial Conference " instead of " Imperial Coimcil." The body we had in
view was a conference that was to have no such powers as, according to the
Government of Canada, are associated in their minds and in the minds
probably of those whom thej- represent, with the name "Imperial Council"
which to us would not have meant more than " Imperial Conference." We
are perfectly prepared to accept that titl(>. I do not need at this stage to
detain the Conference further. Our object is to retain the Conferences as
they at present are, in respect to their authority, to their constitution and to
their periodical meetings. We add a staff, to which allusions will hereafter be
made, for purposes which will then be discussed separately. As to meeting
the expenses of that staff, Ave propose that it should not be cast upon the ex-
chequer of this coimtry. Bej^ond that it seems to me at all events not essential
for us to proceed at this stage. I therefore submit that it is desirable to
establish an Imperial Coimcil or Conference. If the word " establish " be
taken exception to, Ijecause, as matter of fact, the Conference is already in
existence, I have no objection to that criticism. What is sought is to insist
once more upon the regular, and, so far as we can, upon the permanent
existence of this Conference, x^ftcr that we propose a Secretariat with a view
to the consultation through it of the various members of this Conference or
of the Prime J\Iinisters and others who would be members of the Conference
in the intervals between their meetings ; to enable suggestions to proceed
from one or more or aU. of them through the Secretariat to each other and to
the Government of this country, in order that questions likely to be dealt with
at the succeeding meeting may be examined some time ahead, and that aU
necessarj^ information and inquiries may be made and views exchanged, so
that the proposition, after reflection, may either be pressed, modified, or
abandoned when the Conference is entei'cd upon.

Under these circumstances, instead of meeting as we do to-day with only
a very imperfect relation to the Conferences which have preceded this, and
insteaii of taking up the questions l^efore us in an elementary fashion, we
should have an agenda of partly or completely prepared, and sometimes partly
digested matters. This would not only save time, but would enable us to
approach our conclusions with nuich greater confidence. In the same way,
with such a Secretariat after a Conference had closed its labours, the resolu-
tions arrived at would either be the subject for further inquiiy or where the
governments agreed th^t it Avas a matter within their scope or their legislatures
agreed at some time prior to the next Conference that it was a question Avithin
their scope, there might be Avhatever action, small or great, Avas called for.
The action of the Secretariat Avould be subject, as I have ahvaj'^s said, to the real
authorities Avithout Avhom no action is to be proposed to be taken, that is to
say, in each self-governing commimity, to that community itself ; until its
assent was given in the orch'narv Avay by law or by executive act, as the case
might be, there Avould be no poAver in this Secretariat to ask for or to direct
any action. The Secretariat Avould be merely an agency for carrying out the

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

PllOI'OSED
l.MI'ERIAL
CODNCIL.

(Mr. Dciikiii.)

Second Day.
17 April 1907,

Pkoposed

Imperial

Council.

(Mr. Deakin.)

28

instructions of one Conference and for acting as an intermediary at the
sugg;estion of any Prime Minister or any government or governments in order
to prepare for tlie next Conference or between its meetings.

I liope I have not spoken at too great length, but the idea that we had
in our mind was not an extension of power ; it was an extension of inquiry,
an improvement of method, a sj^stem of obtaining complete information and
of enabling us to exchange views with the Government of this country or
with each other. Let me saj in conclusion that there are some matters of
foreign politics, for instance, which occasionally touch closely, either every
Dependency or some of the Dependencies of the Empire, and amongst
them some or all the self-governing communities. At the present time any
communication on those matters is indirect of necessity, bxit it is also
impeded by other considerations. We may appear officious ; we may
appear to lie assimiing without sufficient knowledge that sonae communication
of ours is called for. We desire to be in a position to be able to make such
necessary enquiries in regard to foreign politics as may appear to us to be
urgent and important, to make them direct, to obtain a reply, and if that
reply appears to us to embody any principle, to communicate through
such a Secretariat with the other self-governing communities asking that
they be placed in possession of the same information in order that
they may consider whether in the interests of their own people
they too should not communicate direct with the Government of this
countrj^ in whom the whole control of foreign affairs and defence rests.
I think such occasions would be of rare occurrence, and do not think they
would arise after we had once got into touch with one another more than
once or twice a .year, but when they did arise the.y might be very vital indeed
to some or all of ns. But in all these aspects, what is intended is the con-
tinuation of the present Conference under improved conditions, systematized
procedure, larger information, and whatever extra dignity or prestige would
come from a higher standing, but especially in regard to the greater efficiency
that we might expect from these developments. What we propose is the
continuance of these Conferences with additions which in no waj' alter their
character, principle, or dependence upon the legislative action of our respective
governments.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER
Secretariat ?

Have you thought ol the composition of the

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, to this extent. My own idea is that, if possible,
the Secretariat should consist either of persons new to the public life of this
country, preferably trained by Colonial experience, and possibty with some
official experience here, but, as far as possible, men who had been selected
for their knowledge of the outer Empire, if I may so term it, of its great
dominions, and of the methods of government obtaining there.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : To be appointed by whom ?

Mr. DEAKIN : By the Conference practically, for the Secretariat Avould be
its agency. It would necessarily require to be attached to some department,
and when the proper time comes I shall hope to make a suggestion, without
offence to the Colonial < )ffice and certainly not to its chief, which is that there
appear to us to be a great many practical reasons why it is desirable that the
Colonial OiBce in the future should be what it was at its commencement,
simply the office for the Crown Colonies. Any communications that the
self-governing Colonies or self-governing Dominions have with the Mother
Country should pass through another channel preferably to the Prime Minister

29

of this country direct. Tlio numljer of despatches from the self-2[overniug Second Day.
portions of tlie Empire is, I think, comparatively small and woulil require onlj^ a 17 April 1907.

small ofhce. Their communications of a regular character, exchanging infor-

niation, and so on, are frequent. The Prime Minister's attention would he Pkoi-osei)
rarely c-alled for, hut at present we suffer, and sulfer constantly, hecause c,'a^-"*^
ninety-nine hundredths of the time and attention and ahilitv of this office .,, ^^ ,V .
must necessarily he devoted to the enormous area, the immense population, '

and the inmimerahle problems which surround its administration of dilferent
connnunities scattered all over the world. It appears to me that it Avould be
for the advantage of the Colonial Oifice, and it would be to our advantage,
if we were dissociated altogether from the Dependencies which are governed,
and admirably governed, if I may say so, from this office. Taking the
communities that undertake to ^veru themselves, from which the despatches
are rare and which require very much less attention, it would be to their
advantage to he associated, as I am daring enough to suggest, with the Prime
]\Iiuister himself, who I understand, although his responsibilities are almost
beyond descriiition, is not hurdened with much administrative work at the
present time. I did not intend to enter upon that now, but as you asked me,
Sir "Wilfrid, I have answered your inquiry.

Sir WILFinD LAUIilEPv, : I think it is important in the discussion-
When this subiect was first put to the Colonial Governments 1)}^ the despatch
of Mr. Lyttolton, the suggestion was that an Imperial Coimcil should be
created ; and, as we understood it in Canada, it meant this — and I think that
was the thought that JMr. Lyttelton had in his mind at the time — that the
Coimcil should he composed of the mcmliers of the present Conference or of
the Conferences which have taken place up to this date, that is to say, of the
Prime Ministers of all the self-governing Colonies, assisted by a permanent
body to sit here in the City of London, similar to the Lnperial Defence
Committee. If that idea had been accepted, that there should be here a
permanent Imperial Civil Committee instead of an Imperial Defence
Committee, the title " Imperial Council," I think, would have been
appropriate. We demurred at once in Canada to the idea of creating such
a conmiittee as was suggested, biit we thought it preferable to keep the
Conferences to their present composition, without any more power than they
have at the present time ; and therefore we suggested that the name
"Conference" should be retained, substituting for "Colonial" the word
" Imperial," which I think is more in accordance with the fitness of things.
These Conferences are really Imperial in their character, since they are
not composed only of the self-governing Colonies, but of the representatives
of the Imperial Government also. I am very glad to hear from Mr. Dcakin
that he has no objection to that. The next question, as I understand — the
idea of having such a council as was suggested by Mr. Lyttelton — is not
pressed.

Mr. DEAKIN : We have never pressed it.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: No. I thought that the Imperial Government
woulil press it ; but it is not pressed, as I understand. Therefore Ave are
l)rouglit to the idea of having a Secretariat, sitting here in the City of London.
Even in this modified form 1 am far from being agreeable to it. The Imperial
Conference, if the name is accepted, cannot sit here more than once in four or
five years ; it cannot sit every year, I think everybody admits, nor every
two years ; three years even would be too proximate a date. I may say, for
my part, I thought even four years was too short a space of time, in view of
the fact that nobody can come to this Conference except at great inconvenience ;
and supposing it were decided to sit every four years, you would have here

30

Seeoijd Day.
17 April 1907.

Proposed
Imperial
Council.

(Sir Wilfrid
Laurier.)

the Secretariat, and during the four years the Secretariat to whom ? As i
understand, to the Prime Minister, accortliug to Mr. Deakin's proposaL The
Prime Minister of England is a pretty busy mfui. I am the Prime Minister
of a very small Clolony, lai-ge in territory hut small in population, and 1 am
a pretty busy man, and I imagine that if the Prime Minister of England
could add some 24 hours to the 24 hoiirs of the day it would not be too much
for him ; and I think if you are to burden him with any more duties, I
see some difficulty there. The Colonial Office, Avhich is already divided
into departments, is the proper department to deal, under ministerial
responsibility, with the self-governing Colonies or Crown Colonies. I would
not like to pass by the suggestion of Mr. Deakin. I simply give my
impression, and, as I said a moment ago, I approach the subject' Avith an
absolutely open mind. I am simply pointing out some of the objections
which I see at this moment.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I Avould like to say a few Avords upon this
important matter. Lord Elgin. \Miether the
or a conference to my mind is not of very great importance

organisation is termed a council
so long as the

position and duties of the Council are defined, and speaking for my Colony I
lay it down as one of the cardinal principles of such an organisation, that
there should be no interference with the present rights and powers of the
governments of those self-governing countries ; and in that resjaect if we are
safeguarded, as I am j)erfectly sure everyone is desirous of doing, what we
term the meeting of the Prime Ministers does not matter. If it is covered by
the term " Conference," in deference to Sir WiKrid Laurier's Avish I have not
the slightest objection, and I should be only too glad to fall into line Avith it.
^Vhy 1 preferred the Avord " Council," is because it indicates permanency,
and it is with the object of having a permanent institution established that
I think we ought if we can to arrive at some decision of a definite
nature in dealing Avith this matter.

Now, upon the jDoint last referred to by Sir Wilfrid Laurier,
and dealt Avith hj Mr. Deakin in the course of his speech (upon Avliich
I should like to add I have had no conference with Mr. Deakin), I should
like to say, in regard to the suggestion of the method of dealing Avith
Governments of the Crown Colonies and those of the self-governing Colonies,
oiir seK-governing Colonies are increasing in population and in power
daily ; during the next 10 or 20 years there is no man sitting at this table
can contemplate Avliat those countries, among them the Dominion of Canada,
are going to attain to, and I am persuaded in my own mind, that although
tlie Avork of the Colonial Office — and I have had a fairly long experience as a
Minister of the CroAvn in our country — Avith regard to our self-governing
coimtries has been of the finest possible character, there is, hoAvever, a feehng,
in the minds of adnunistrators certainly, that we occupy a very different
position to those CroAvn Colonies. We regard the Crown Colonies as being
governed and controlled by the British Government entirely, with the advice
of the experienced representatiA^es AAdio go out as Governors to those Crown
Colonies. We look ujjon them as j^ortions of the British Empire governed
from England, and under their complete control and direction, subject to the
advice, as I say, of the Governor resident there. Our self-governing countries
are not in the same position. We are responsible to our own peoijle and
govern ourselves, and Ave Avant to be regarded as Ave ahvayshave been,
though Avoi'kiiig llirongh the Secretaries of State for the Colonies; We should
be in a diU'enmt category to the Crown Colonies. 1 think the term
" Colony," so far as our countries are concerned, ought to cease, and that
that term ought to aj)p]y to the CroAvn Colonies purclj', and that those of
us who are not at present known as Dominions or CoumionA\-ealths, should

31

be known as Slates of the Empire, or some other expressive word, so as to Second DEy.
make a distinction as between the Crown Colonies and the self-governing 17 April 1907.

Dependencies. I would not presume for a moment to suggest how the \\'^k

of the Colonial Ollice should be arranged, but if we were put under a Ikmi'o^kd
separate category, and necessarilj^ with a separate Administration tor the Council.
Avorking of our self-governing countries, that would be a great improvement, (sir Josieph
and, although perhaps not important in the minds of some people, would be Ward.)

a source of considerable satisfaction, certainly to our country. I should like,
at all events before we finish our discussion, to say something further upon
the suggestion made by Jlr. Dcakin, with a view to arriving at an
imderstanding al)out it.

For iiiy owai part, I want to say that whether it be called an Imperial
Conference or an Imperial Council, in my opinion it should consist of the
Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies, the Prime Minister of
England, and the Secretary of State for the Colonies. Tliat is the opinion
I entertain, and I have had that in my mind all along. Now, I suggest that
we should consider the propriety of including tlie Prime Minister of England
upon the Imperial Conference for the reason that it does in the eyes of the
outside world impress upon tlie public at large the fact that the Government
of the Old Land is part and parcel of the Conference. An ordinaiy individual
who takes an interest in the carrying on of the affairs of a countr}- like the
one to which I belong cannot draw a line between the individual designa-
tions of the great Ministers of the Crown ii\ the Old World, and I believe it
would not derogate in any way from either the functions or position of the
Secretary of State for the Colonies and it would add materially to the
importance of the Conference if the Prime Minister of this country were
included.

I want also to say that I think the finictions and powers of the Council
should 1)6 consultative and advisory only on everything — that is on all matters
affecting the Empire or Imperial matters in which the States would be in any
way concerned, and that it should have no executive or administrative powers.

Upon the question of the Secretariat, I am inclined to think that that
is a matter that ought to be deferred for final settlement, and it ought to be
deferred for the reason that if this Conference arrives at the decision that
it is desirable to have a permanent Imperial Conference, then I think
the present Prime Ministers should coiifer as to the best means of
having the gap between the times of the periodical meetings every four
or five years filled up. The meetings should not be too frequent, their
frequency would weaken them to a very material extent and detract from
their influence, but T think that the manner of the filling up of the gap i)y
the permanent officer who is to be here to represent such an Imperial Council,
requires to be very carefully considered before we arrive at a final con-
clusion about it. I am not favourable myself to the creation of what one
might term a separate office, carried on in the Old Country as an inter-
mediary between the respective Prime; ^linisters during the recesses. I
shoxdd feel rather disposed to consider whether the self-governing countries
could not mutually agree to one or two of the more important repre-
sentatives of their Colonies resident in England, that is, the High Commis-
sioners or Agents-General, becoming the recognised channel through
which communications should pass. I want to make it quite clear that the
communications which we now are in the habit of sending from the Colonies
through the Governor to the Secretaiy of State for the Colonies, should
remain absolute, as at present, for the purpose of dealing with all matters of
Imperial concern to our country about which from time to time we require
to communicate, because I think we should be, above all things, strenuous
in our desire to preserve our entity or individuality in the matter of the
control of our own country. Biit a permanent Imperial Conference would

32

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

Proposed
Imperial
Council.

(Sir Joseph
Ward.)

in my opinion be invaluable. Questions which it would be to the interest of
all of us to confer upon, of importance to the different self-governing countries,
could, in the rscess, be subjects for correspondence. I see no reason why, by
correspondence upon many matters of vital concern to our countries, we
should not really perpetuate the advantages that ought to accrue from the
periodical meeting of practical men. My opinion is that during the recesses
enormous good to our respective countries would accrue, if we were able to
recognise that we had all the right to communicate, confidentially if we
wished, thi-ough the Secretariat upon matters that might be of immense
conseqtience to our countries.

Our country is very anxious and willing to assist the Old Land in the
event of trouble arising, to do so voluntarily by men or by money, and, I
think, always woidd be ready to do its share in fighting for the defence of
the Motherland in any portion of the world. We want lo keep clear of the
possibility of being drawn into what one might term Continental troubles
with England itself. We Avant to have a distinct line of demarcation drawn
in that respect between the responsibility we accept of our own free wiU.
and the responsibility that may be imposed upon us without our having had
anj^ opportunity of conference or discussion with regard to it. To my mind
that is one of the matters upon which siich an Imperial Conference or Council
permanently established, Avitli the understanding that the members of it
would correspond with one another during the recess from time to time
should circumstances require it, would be beneficial, so that we might take
joint action for the purpose of helping or working together in critical times.
To secure a position of that sort I regard as of very great importance, and we
in New Zealand should have the benefit of the advice of a gentleman, say in
the position of Sir Wilfred Laurier himself, or of any other who might when
the time comes take his place, which I hope will be a long way oft'. What an
enormous advantage it would he for a country like New Zealand to have the
opportimity of conferring with, perhaps. General Botha or Doctor Jameson,
which we could do with some authority if we had a permanent institution
properly established. As it is at the moment, in carrying on the Governments
of our respective countries, we may have commimications from the Secretary
of State for the Colonies. We act to the best of our judgment ; we act
without consultation with the Premiers of the other self-governing countries.
Occasionally the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth and of New Zealand
confer as a matter of discussion beforehand, but still we act independently.
With the recognition that we had some sort of — I do not say power, because
power would not be the proper word — but the opportunity of consultation,
if we had an organisation by which we could look upon it as our right to
confer with each other, then, I think, a recommendation coming from us after
mutual discussion and consideration, perhaps by cable, would be invaluable
in arriving at a decision upon very critical and important matters.

I do not propose to take up the time of the Conference further at the
moment, except to say that I do hope that we Avill be able to meet the
ditficullies or to meet the views of Sir Wilfrid Laurier on this question. I
recognise, as the representative of New Zealand, that unless we liave the full
concurrence of the representative of the great Dominion of Canada with us
upon the proposal to establish an Lnperial Conference pemianently, it would
be quite hopeless for us to exj)cct to arrive at anything like a working Ijasis
which would be of any use to us. For my own part 1 shoidd go a long way
to meet any suggestion Sir Wilfrid Laurier has to make in the hope that we
may do something before we i)art on this occasion towards establishing an
institution that ought to be not only helpful but invaluable to our
respective countries in carrying on their functions. We must all be in
agreement regarding the establishment of a Council or Conference.

There is a matter to which I would (jnly allude and then I will conclude.

33

At the present moment we are all anxious to try to assist the intricacies Second Day.

of trade development ; we are all desirous — at all events, the self-governing '"^ April 1907.

Colonies are — to enter into reciprocal treaties with one another on Pboh()sed

matters of trade. If we had an Imperial Conference or Council established Imi>i;i£ial

of which the Prime Minister and Secretary of State of England were members, Council.

that is a matter which might, with enormous advantage both to the Old (Sir Joseph

Land and to the newer ones, be taken up by the Imperial Council, and be Ward.)

gone into with a view to see what anomalies and what difEcidties exist on the

side of the Mother Country and what anomalies exist in the Colonies, to

enable something like a unanimity of decision being arrived at. My opinion

is that wc should give and take upon matters of great importance so as to

bring tlie Mother Country into line with us, on a dithcult question of this

kind. For my own part I do not see why the Imperial Council sJ\ould not

consider among other things, with full information furnished to it from the

Secretariat, the desirability of omitting some items that we are deeply

concerned in from the proposed tariff between our respective countiies,

possibly foodstuffs. That is a matter which a Conference, sitting as we

ai'e now, cannot go into the detail of, but we could get an immense amount

of information concerning it which would be of great use to us in arriving

at a decision. New Zealand has taken up the matter of a Council at

the instigation of the Secretary of State for the Colonies in the despatch

referred to by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, sent out in 1905. Tlie three previous

Conferences to the present one have all felt, though they have derived

practical good from the interchange of ideas between the representative

men in charge of the affairs of the respective countries, a certain amount

of hopelessness owing to the difficulty of putting into some practical effect

the decisions arrived at at the casual Conferences that have been held.

I merely wish to say upon this question that if it is possible as the result
of the discussions for us to arrive at some basis upon which we could construct
an Inaperial Conference of a permanent character, then I think the meeting of
the representative men of the respective coxmtries Avould certainly have done
good.

Dr. JAMESON : Lord Elgin, I would lirst say that I recognise what Sir
Joseph Ward has said, the advantage of having unanimity upon this subject,
or any other subject which conies before this Conference. Nothing will be
done unless we are all unanimous, and I was very glad to hear the extremely
moderate and very lucid statement of Mr. Deakin on the question of
Conferences. I was glad to see from that lucid statement tliat he was able to
remove from the mind of Sir Wilfrid Laurier the idea that he had any
elaborate scheme to propose with regard to the constitution of this so-called
Imperial Council, which 1 may say at once I would l)e glad to see changed in
name to the Imperial Conference. We did not wish to initiate any new
scheme whatever, as Mr. Deakin has explained ; all that we desired was to
make more efficient the work of the Conference, as the Conference stands at
present.

I noticed that Sir Wilfrid Laurier still practical!}' stands to the objection
to the second portion of the scheme, that is the Secretariat, the new office to be
created in England. Sir Joseph Ward says he does not want to see any new
office created in England ; at the same time there is a desire that there should
be some connecting link between the Conferences during tlie three or four
years Avhen we do not sit, and unless you have something in the form of a
Secretariat I do not see how you will get that desirable link. Then I do not
think Mr. Deakin exactly expressed his answer to Sir Wilfrid Laurier. Sir
Wilfrid Laurier asked: "Who is it to iDe the Secretariat of — the Prime
" Minister of England ? " and Mr. Deakin said : " Yes," but I do not think
Mr. Dealdn meant that exactly ; he meant it should be the Secretariat to all

A 48688.. C

34

Second Daj.
17 April 1907.

Pboposed
Impekial
Council.

(Sir Joseph

Ward.)

the Prime Ministers of the Empire, — the Prime Ministers of England and of all
the self-governing Colonies. My idea of the Secretariat was that each of
those Colonies should appoint its representative upon it, the Prime Minister
of England also being represented npon it. I think this the right
arrangement as far as the self-governing Colonies are concerned, because,
after all, at the back of the whole of this is tlie fear of the expense
of any new body here and the possibility that that body might grow in
power so as to interfere Avith the powers as they exist in the self-govern-
ing Colonies themselves. I think we are all unanimous in this room,
and I know how strong the feeling is that we ought not to delegate any
possibilitj^ of any power away from the self-governing Colonies, but that
we ought to increase their powers. What we are anxious to do is, of course,
to get each individually into constitutional equality with the Motherland ;
it may be a very disproportionate equality, but that is our idea, really
that we are going to be nations, not separate from the United Kingdom
but nations within the United Empire. But it is to be nations ; so I want to
disabuse General Botha's mind, he having mentioned the subject to me a
couple of days ago, and also the mind of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, from the idea
that we are not as strong as they are on this subject of maintaining absolute
conti'ol over local affairs in our various Colonies. With that idea, to show that
no power could accumulate to this Secretariat, I would propose, at first at all
events, that that Secretariat should be composed really of our representa-
tives in this country at the present moment, who are entirely imder our
control so far as we are concerned. In the case of Canada, New
Zealand and A ustralia, it would be the High Commissioners, and in the case
of the other Colonies it woidd be our Agents General. Then, as to the work.
What would they do during the three or four years with no guiding hand ?
I think there will be plenty of work for them to do — in lact, I consider each
of these High Commissioners or Agents General probably would create a
department with perhaps one or two clerks under the Agent General to do
the investigation work that would be required in preparing what I call the
brief for the coming Conference. Till then the Secretariat would consist of
either the present or other representatives appointed by the various Colonies
themselves, entirely under the authority of those variovis Colonies, and that
woidd form, I think, a beginning only of the link between the Conferences as
at present established. I understand the 1902 Conference passed a resolution
that the Conference should be every four years, or at all events, should occur
within four years, and I liave no doubt that before we part we will pass
a resolution that we should meet every four or five years, or whatever the term
may be.

On that same point again Mr. Deakin said that in preparation for the
Conference the Secretariat would workout these subjects as, I say, the brief for
the Conference, and at the same time in working up this brief various subjects
might be proposed which on investigation it might be found it was not worth
while bringing forward, and they would be abandoned. Of course that
Secretariat would have no power to abandon or create anything ; they would
be abandoned, as Sir Joseph Ward suggested, by correspondence between
them and all the Prime Ministers, and by the authority of the Conference,
although the Conference might be scattered at that particular tim.e all over
the Empire.

Mr. DEAKIN : Precisely.

Dr. JAMESON : Still the Avhole power is left with the Conference, and
I may say I contemplate that this Conference will not attempt to get any
further than merely consultative work even in the Conference itself ; there is
no possible increase of power. As I say, it is a kind of seed which may grow.

35

Of course, we may have visions a thousand years hence of a closer union, but
we want no more than that at the beginning. We want no new departure.
We know perfectly well how shy any one of the Anglo-Saxon race i.s of a new
departure, and all we want in the self-governing Colonies is that this union
of the Empire should gradually grow, but you must put the seed in first so
that it may begin to grow. What we want is what I think the Secretary of
State for the Colonies suggested — a link between the Colonies.

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

PuOPOsKI>

Impeuiai.

Council.

(Dr. Jiimi?soii.)

General BOTHA : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I have read with great
interest the speech made by Mr. Chamberlain at the last Conference, and
there is one point that specially drew my attention, and that is this : " It is
" clear that the object would not be comj^letely secured until there had been
" conferred upon such a Council executive functions, and perhaps also
" legislati\e powers, and it is for you to say, gentlemen, whether you think
" the time has come when any progress can be made in this direction."
Now, when I read this I thought that if the word " Council " was to be
attached, as suggested by Mr. Deakin, to the word " Imperial," this might
make an infraction upon the rights of responsible government of the various
self-governing Colonies. On this point I am conservative, and I do not see
any reason for departing from the name which we have to-day. I should like
to build up, but I should like to build slowly. The circumstances of South
Africa to-day are such that we represent three Colonies there. The fourth
Colony, will, I hope, also be represented at the following Colonial Conference.
I think it is a good thing for us to discuss the point, but I do not think we
should arrive as yet, at this Conference, at a final conclusion on the matter,
although I am inclined to identify myself in a great measure with the
suggestion of Sir Wilfi-id Laurier. On the question as to the Secretariat, I
think the suggestion made in connection with that, with all due deference to
Mr. Deakin, is not quite happy. I do not quite understand what the duties
and functions of those people will be. I also fear that we might afterwards
create more work for ourselves with the officials of the Secretariat than with
the Colonial Office itself, and I want to maintain the bond of connection as
directly as possible between the Colonial Office and the self-governing
possessions. I believe each Colony has its Agent-General here, and I think
we should modify the instructions to the Agents-General in this respect, that
they should have authority to prepare the agenda for us, to work up the facts
for us. That is all I have to say.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, I am sure anyone representing the Imperial
Government must have listened with great satisfaction to the discussion that
has taken place, in one particular, at all events, because it is quite obvious
that every word that has been spoken and every suggestion which has been
made has been made in the spirit of increasing the unity and strength of the
British Empire ; and I feel very much, that if that is so (and I think it is so),
there is no fear, as Sir AVilfrid Laiirier put it on Monday, that this Conference
will be a failure. We may have differences of opinion with regard to
particular methods in which we ought to cany out the purposes, but if we
have the same end in view, I am sure we shall endeavour to adjust our
differences so as to secure that end. Therefore, I do not think it is necessary
for me to go so much into detail as at one time I thought might be necessary
with regard to the various resolutions which were sent into us from the other
Colonies.

We meet in the first place under the resolution of the last Conference ;
that, no doubt, is in the recollection of the Conference, but I have it here
before me. Since that time my predecessor, Mr. Lyttelton has sent out
proposals which have been referred to in this discussion. I mention them

C 2

36

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

Pkoposed
Imperial

Council.

(Chairman.)

with all respect ; they have received support from several Colonies, but
Mr. Lyttelton himself, after the despatch which came from the Canadian
Government, agreed that these proposals must be deferred at any rate until
they had been discussed hereby the Conference which is now assembled. All
therefore that I would say with regard to them is this, that no doubt the
resolutions wliich are on our paper for consideration to-day, do take up both
sides of the proposal which Mr. Lyttelton put forward, and that, therefore,
we have in a sense those j)roposals as well before us. Now it appeared to me
when I first saw these resolutions that there were considerable differences
between the views taken by those who proposed them. In the first place I
came to the conclusion, and I am glad to have it confirmed by what
Mr. Deakiu has said, that the object of the Government of the Australian
Commonwealth was to preserve the chief characteristics of the Conferences as
they have hitherto existed, but I was not quite so sure with regard to the
resolutions from New Zealand and the Cape, and I thought that it was
possible to read in them a proposal to establish in place of the Conference a
permanent body or Council, which was, of course, an entire alteration from
the principle under which we assemble. But from what Sir Joseph Ward has
said, and 1 think also from what Dr. Jameson has said, I ma)' assume that that
is not the intention of those Governments ; they do also, as Mr. Deakin has put
it, desire to preserve these Conferences — I will not say exactly on the same
basis, but at any rate on the same principle on Avhich they have existed hitherto
as Conferences, as the Prime Minister described them, between the Imperial
Government and the self-governing Colonies through the representatives of
the Imperial Government and the Prime Ministers of the Colonies. I notice,
again, that the Australian resolution does say distinctly that the representatives
of the self-governing Colonies should be chosen ex officio from their existing
administrations, and I think I gathered from Mr. Deakin that by that he does
mean the Prime Ministers essentially.

might

Mr. DEAKIN ; The phrase " ex officio " was used only because it
be physically impossible for the Prime Minister to be there, in which case
a second Minister would take the place of the Prime Minister and speak
for him.

CHAIRMAN : Quite so. New Zealand does not enter into any qualifi-
cation ; but I do not wish to press that, or any other difference between the
resolutions, unduly. I quite expected to have, as we have had, full explanation
from the representatives of the Colonies when they came, and I do not
understand that on that point there is any difference between Sir Josej)h
Ward and Mr. Deakin.

Now I come to a very important matter indeed, and that is the functions
of what is called, in the resolutions, the Imperial Council, but which, from
what I have already said, really means the Conference. New Zealand, again,
gave no definition of the fxmctions, but the Australian resolution did define
them and defined them in a very interesting manner, because it puts it very
distinctly that the objects of the Council are to discuss at regular Conferences
matters of common Imperial interest, and went on to say : " and to establish
" a system by wdiich members of the Council shall be kept informed during
" the periods between the Conferences in regard to mattei's whiclf have been,
" or may be, subjects for discussion." Discussion at the Conferences is at
the root of the whole business. I venture to think that the point is of
importance, for this reason, that on the one hand, so long as we are dealing
with the question of the methods by which we may improve the machinery of
the Conference systomi, we are doing one thing, but as soon as we begin to
discuss any question of establishing a body with powers independent of the
Conference, we are doing a perfectly different thing. That second thing is a

37

new thing. It is not what we have have had, and I am afraid it woukl be
very difficult for me to agree, on behalf of His Majestj''s Government, to the
estabhshment of a body with independent status or avithority. It would be
contrary to the freedom and independence of which the Prime Minister spoke
at our meeting on Monday. Therefore, it was that we did feel with Canada
that there might be under a proposal of this kind, a danger to the autonomy
of us all — not only us here, but the self-governing Colonies as well. In the
self-governing Colonies, as with us, 1 neetl scarcely remind the members
of the Conference, the basis of all British government is the responsibility
of Ministers to their Parliaments ; not only, as here, our responsibility
to the British Parliament, but your responsibility to your Parliaments.
I venture to think that to do anything to establish a body that might
interpose in any way between Ministers and tlie Parliaments to which they
are responsible might almost endanger the liberties which ought to be
inviolate. I for my part find it difficult to imagine that a body in any way
independent of Ministers here or in the Colonies, established in this country,
could be in accordance with the principles to which I have referred. 1
know it is said that nothing executive is intended, and it is to be nothing
but advisory. I am afraid I do not think that that entirely removes tlie
objection. We have, even in private life, sometimes had experience of the
candid friend, the man whose advice we cannot avoid listening to, though,
perhaps, it does not always strengthen our hands in the process. I venture
to think that there would be a relative danger, but of course under all the
circumstances a much more important danger, in the establishment of a body
in any way independent in connection Avith these Conferences ; and I think I
may say for my colleagues that we all think Ministers must be secured in the
direct responsibility which they hold to their Parliaments.

There is another point which Sir Joseph Ward referred to, and which I
would just like to touch on for a moment, and that is that we already have a
constitutional link between the government of this countiy ami the govern-
ments in the Colonies through the Governor himself. I hesitate to say much
about that in the presence of my colleagues, who have had much greater
experience of the working of it than I have, but I do venture to say that the
Governor's position is an important one, and his influence is often very great,
if I may make one personal allusion, I speak from a recollection of chapters
in my own familj' history, and from my experience of the last eighteen
months in this Office. You must recognise I am sure, every one of you.
that we endeavour to send out to the self-governing Colonies men who are
of a standing and calibre to fulfil those duties. A change in the relations
here might make that very difficult, and there would be a danger, I think,
of the influence of the Governor being destroyed, or, at any rate, his
opportunities of influence restricted, and of course it would not be very difficult
to make the Service less attractive to men of ability and energy. T do not wish
to press that point in any way too far, but I think it is one worth bearing in
mind in the discussion of this question.

In what I have said hitherto, I have, no doubt, rather assumed that I was
speaking of what I imagine possibly might be the idea underlying the New
Zealand resolution as to an Imperial Council in place of this Conference. I
repeat that 1 do not think that that is practicable, at any rate in the
meantime ; I would not put it aside altogether. A time may come
when it may be practicable. I have dwelt on the importance of the
link of responsibility between governments and their parliaments. 1
can appeal to those here who have had experience of federations that
that is borne in mind when the federation itself is called into existence.
It is to a Federal Parliament that the Federal Government is responsible.
If we ever in future ages come to a federation of the Empire, Avhich is
a dream that men have entertained, it must proceed, I maintain, on the same

A 4SC68. C 3

Second L»n_v.
17 April 1907.

PuiiPOSED

Imteuial

CuINCIL.

(Cliiiiriniiii.)

11601

38

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

Proposed
Imperial
CorxciL.

(Chairman.)

principle, and whether the time will come when science and the inventor
may make that practicable — and one feels a doubt Avhether one ought to put
any limit to the triumphs which await science and the inventor — still,
at any rate, that is not a part of the discussion to-day, and we must deal
with the problems as we find them. I would only just say, therefore, that
with regard to this meeting I understand the Conference is, with practical
imanimity, agi-eed — I think I may put it as far as that — to accept the
designation of " Imperial Conference." I think, as far as I am able to speak
for His Majesty's Government, that we would be perfectly prepared to accept
that designation, and to allow the matter to stand as regards that branch of
the siibject, on that footing. I think that designation originally came fi"om
(Canada, and, therefore, I suppose I may assiune that Canada would carry us so
far. I think that can be taken as one result, but I should not like to limit the
resolution to that. The Prime Minister spoke with emphasis on Monday of his
desire for some means of "maintaining the impetus." This is really a discussion
of business relations, not quite on the same grade, perhaps, as the former part of
the subject, but still of immense importance. I should like, with all deference
to Mr. Deakin, to say that I am not prepared to admit that I am ashamed in
any way of the submissions which have been made to this Conference. It is
not only the Colonial Office, but every department, I think I might say, of the
British Government, who have been concerned in la^-iug before the Conference
what I venture to maintain are a remarkable series of papers. It has
been our business in the Colonial Office, of course, to co-ordinate and arrange
them, but we do not profess to take credit for more than it has been our duty
to do. What I hope is that the Conference will now, or, at any rate, when
the business of these meetings has been completed, feel that the Colonial
Office have done all they can to put the subjects before them orderly and
with full information, and will, so far, at any rate, express approval of the
efforts of my friends the Secretaries, who have been mainly responsilole in
this matter. But it is said that even if that is so this work is ephemeral ;
when the Conference is dissolved the organisation disappears and the tln-ead
is lost. I am not quite clear that I should even admit that altogether. I
think, in justice to my office, and in justice to the other offices of the British
Govermnent, that if you stiidy these papers — for instance, this paper laid
before you describing the progress of events — yoi; will find that a good deal
has been done on a number of subjects between the last Conference and tliis.
I am not in the least inclined to dispute that there would be an advantage in
more continuitj^ but I would say so under one condition, that I think that
any organisation established for that purpose must be under a responsible
head. We must remember that many, if not most, of the subjects which
come before the Conference are highly confidential. They are matters which
deal with information from official sources. If we advance so far as to
approach a remedy, that remedy must be obtained, either in this country or
in the Colonies, by the efforts of the legislature.

I may refer to some observations that have lieen made in the course of
this discussion with regard to the position of the Colonial Office. It has been
suggested that the Colonial Office should cease to be in communication with
the responsibly-governed Colonies, and should restrict its energies to the
Crown Colonies. No doubt at one time most of the responsibly-governed
Colonies, if not all of them, were Crown Colonies, and the change has come
gradually. To a certain extent that has been recognised in the Office itseK.
Within the last year we have been brought face to face with the fact that in
the Transvaal, and very shortly in the Orange River Colony, we have two
additions to the number of self-governing Colonies, and some re-organisation
of our office would be desirable, and we have had it under consideration. 1
do not know whether the Conference will call upon the Colonial Office to
provide for the continuity which it desires. If the Conference should so call,

39

T venture to reply that the Colouial DiFicc will do its liest to meet it. I cannot
answer the question as to whether the Conference will so act, but I should
not like to pass this opportunity of thanking Sir Wilfrid Laurier for an
expression of his opinion of the work done, and the spirit in which work had
been done by the Colonial OHice (hiring the long period of his experience.
It is a testimony which we value very much. I would venture on my own
part to say that my experience, so far as it goes, would certainly be in the
same direction, and 1 say that with the greater freedom because I am not a
permanent member of this Othce ; I am only one of those political will-o'-the-
wisps who pass tlii-ough it and have gone. I have found here, 1 am l)ound to
say, in the mendjcrs of the staff of this Office, an absolutely single-minded
devotion to the interests committed to their charge, and a determination to
deal with the affairs of the Colonies as they come to them without fear, or
prejudice, or favour.

Now, gentlemen, 1 say that if the Conference will allow us we are quite
prepared to undertake to do our best to devise methods for securing the
continuity which is desired. As I said, I have had this matter under
consideration, and I might, perhaps, have elaborated a scheme for
submission to this Conference, but 1 thought that on the whole it was better
not to forestall the Conference. I desire to get suggestions from the members
of the Conference, which I shall, of course, be only too pleased to take
advantage of so far as I can. Rut if the principle is accepted, further
conferences of, perhaps, a more confidential character, may take place
during the course of our proceedings, and the matter may be arranged.
If this could be done it appears to me that we should secure the greater
part, if not the whole, of the propositions put before us in the resolution
from Australia. If the Conference should lay stress upon any subject the
consideration of it would be early and would be continuous ; any inquiry
would be completed, and when the inquiry was completed, then the subject
would be fully prejiared with the fullest details, as Mr. Deakiu desires,
for the next Conference ; or, what I think is a suggestion which should
not be overlooked or disregarded, it might in many cases with great
advantage be dealt with, as the shipping question has been dealt with this
year — by a subsidiary conference which could meet with less inconvenience,
no doubt, to the Colonies and Colonial Ministers, but which, as that
Conference to which I have referred shoAvs, may have great results. The
Prime Minister called your attention to that on Monday.

I do not know that I can add very much, and I hope I have not detained
the meeting at too great length as it is. I have endeavoured to put frankly
before you the difliculties which his Majesty's Government Mould feel in
establishing a body independent of the Government of this country. May I
say one word with regard to the suggestion that this secretariat should be
tmder the Prime Minister. I have only to bear mj'^ testimony to Avhat Sir
Wilfrid Laurier has said as to the extreme strain which would l)e put on the
Prime Minister by such a course. I cannot think myself that it can be the
case that the business would be of small dimensions. I hope and believe
that the communications between ourselves and the Ciovernments of the
responsible self-governing Colonies wiU for long be constant, and that we
shall act in concert, and the more we do so, the more important it is that the
business shoidd be transacted in a large office where Ave can command lull
strength.

An observation Avas made, 1 think, by Sir Joseph Ward, with regard to
the opportunities that this system Avhich has been adumbrated miglit give
for communications between the Colonies themselves. I do not quite under-
stand AA'hy there should be a difficulty now. According to our ijresent
system, I think Avhen a subject arises between us and any one Colony, Avhich
may be of interest to others, it is our practice to forward the communication

C 4

Second Day.
IT April 1907.

PkhI'hsED

Tmpekial
CorxiiL.

(Cliairiimn.)

40

Second Day.
17 April 1907

Proposed
Imperial

coitncil.

(Chairiiiaii.)

to the others, and, as far as I know, there are inter-communications between
one Colony and another. I only say that as an explanation arising out of the
observation Sir Joseph Ward made.

I do not know what I can suggest as to the next step, as we have all
expressed our opinions on these matters, but whether we are at this moment
in a position to propose or prepare a resolution for adoption, 1 am not quite
sure.

Sir WILFRID LAURIE R : My Lord and gentlemen, as 1 understand
the discussion so far, upon the first point, that there should be .an Imperial
Conference, there seems to be practical unanimity. Upon the second point,
as to how it should be composed, that is the question next for consideration.
I take it that the Imperial Conference is practically a representation of all
the self-governing Governments to meet periodically with the Imperial
Government here in London. There may be some discussion and valuable
excliange of opinion as to how this Conference should be composed. I
listened with a great deal of attention to the suggestion made by Mr. Deakin,
and, I think, supported by Sir Joseph Ward, that whereas in the past these
conferences have been presided over by the Secretary of State for the Colonies,
the Prime Minister should be joined in order to affirm the fact that it is, as I
ventured to express it the other day, a conference between governments and
governments.

Next, as to what was originally the thought, that there should
be an adjunct body to sit here in London permanently during the
three or four years that the Conference woidd be absent from London.
This point is reduced now to having a secretariat. There is a good deal of
difEerence of opinion amongst us upon that. I have said, and I can only repeat
that I approach this subject with a very open mind. I have listened with
very great attention to the observations of my three colleagues, Mr. Deakin,
Sir Joseph Ward, and Dr. Jameson. They protest, and I am sure they are
quite sincere about that, that such a secretariat would not have any work to
do more than is implied in the word " secretariat," that it would not be an
independent body, but a dependent body. I know that is the intention. But
I cannot bring myseK to see how the organisation of such a body is to be
anything else but that of an independent body. Whom are they going to
advise ? Whose suggestions are they to receive ? On what authority are
they to act? What work shaU they do? What advice shall they give?
Shall they give independent advice ? What reports shall they make ? I can
conceive that a body of that kind might be instructed to prepare some
work here and there occasionally, but during four or five years they would be
here all by themselves taking the suggestions of nobody, so far as I can see.
It was suggested by my friends, Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Deakin, that they
should be under the control of the Prime Minister, but even that I am not
satisfied is practicable. If Mr. Deakin can satisfy me that it is practicable,
I am prepared to listen to his observations, but at the present time I am not
convinced that this is a practical step which would meet with any substantial
result. On the contrary, I believe such a body would in the necessity of
things be always inclined to act independently, and I share altogether the view
of Lord Elgin that for the present no such body should exist, but that, on
the principle of responsible government, no one should give advice of any
kind except a man who is responsiWe directly to the people.

These are the views I have to present at this moment, and of course we
approach all these points in a confidential manner at this table, being ready
to exchange our views and receive suggestions. As Mr. Deakin and Sir
Joseph Ward have given a great deal of attention to these matters, if they
have any further suggestions to make, I, for my part, shall be very willing
to receive them.

41

Mr. DEAKIN : Lord Elgiu, the emphasis which you laid upon the Second Day.
assertion of the principle that you could not consent to the creation i" April iyi)7
of any body which should be independent of the Government of this ~"~

country is one which will be cordially re-echoed by every representative impekiai,'
from the self-governing colonies. We could take back no proposition more Council.
unpalatable to those whom we represent than one for the creation of an
auttiority which would have control over them and not be subject to their
control. No such suggestion was ever intended. Certainly it was never
present to my mind, and certainly it would be repudiated by our Parliaments.
I do not, however, quite apply the same doctrine as Sir Wilfred Laurie r
did. He, at all events, had not excluded it from Ids mind, when deaUng
with the question of the secretariat. Before coming to that second branch of
the subject, let me hope no remark that I made would bear one interpretation
which you appeared to think possible with regard to the submission of work
to this Conference. I have to say that the first Conference, so far as I am
aware, which has been in any way properly equipped, has been this Confer-
ence. You have been good enough also to add to the information supplied
some other information — I think at the suggestion of some of us — most
of it already complete, which is very valuable. I had not certainly any
intention of implying any defect on the part of the submissions to tliis
Conference under present conditions. The difficulty is that the result of those
submissions reaches us just as we are arriving or have arrived in this
country, and I candidly confess that with the best will in the world and with
long hours of wakefulness, and constant occupation, I have not yet been able
to read a single line of tliem. On coming to Loudon, especially after a long
interval, being met with the overwhelming kindness which all visitors
experience, and also met with a rush of official and business communications
of one kind or another, whicli liave been apparently suspended for the pur-
pose of constituting a shower when we arrive, it has been perfectly impossible,
at least so far as I am concerned, to give that valuable information the
consideration which it deserves. One of the objects of the secretariat is that
not only that the information should be obtained up to date, but that it should
be available at a time and in a place where it could be properly weighed and
criticised beforehand. I have no doubt as we proceed we shall be able to
make use of it.

CHAIRMAN : Of course some part of the information can scarcely be
prepared until the last moment.

Mr. DEAKIN : Some portion of it, Init it is necessary, if we are to come
here equipped for work, that it should be in our possession much longer than
these valuable summaries have yet been.

With respect to one allusion your Lordship made to this very interesting
paper, which is called " Notes upon the action taken pursuant to the resolu-
" tion of the last Colonial Conference of 1902," there is on page 2, the
resolution of 1902 quoted " That so far as may be consistent with the
" confidential negotiations on treaties with Foreign Powers the views of
" the Colonies affected should be obtained, in order that they may be in a
" better position to give ailhesion to such treaties." There is a statement
that a despatch was sent to tlie Colonial Governments, and a memorandum
on the means of facilitating such conunuuications is to be laid before the
present Conference. Wliat I should like to be informed, and am not informed
by this memorandum, is whether any treaties of any kind have been negotiated
since that resolution was carried, and, if so, did any communications pass
with any and which of our governments in relation to them.

42
SecDod Day. CHAIRMAN : Do you want an answer off-hand ?

17 April 1907.

Proposed Mr. DExVKIN : I should not object, but do not expect it. There

Imperial have been treaties. Afy memory, I think, recalls a Roumanian commercial
Council. treaty, and I do not recall from memory — being here absent from my
Office — any communication with regard to it, though I by no means assert
that no communication was sent or received. There are one or two other
treaties which I think have been negotiated since that date, on which I should
be glad to be supplied with information to supplement this interqsting paper.

CHAIRMAN : I am informed by the Secretary that treaties are sent out
in a general despatch.

Mr. DEAKIN : If I might have a list of the treaties sent out to us,
I should be obliged. Further in the course of his remarks. Sir Wilfrid
Laurier allnded to my suggestion of the Presidencj^ of the Prime Minister
at future Conferences. That is one of the conditions which appear to me
to be worthy of deliberation by this Conference, so soon as we pass from
the general question. It appears to me that this suggestion would raise
the status of the Conference ; it would place the Govei'uments represented
here in precisely the same position in every respect, and is therefore of
value and of weight. If the Prime Minister of Great Britain presided
either in fact or by deputy at meetings of future Conferences, there is no
doubt that greater prestige would attach to them where prestige is most
important, especiallj^ in the outlying dominions. That is part of the
proposal which we made as to ex-officio representation. It is not intended
in any way to ask for particular persons or in the least degree to reflect
upon any other members of his Majesty's Government. The Secretary of
State for the Colonies would no doubt b(; the deputy whom for most
purposes the Prime Minister would select. But if the Prime Minister did
not expressly select a deputy, perhaps the character of these meetings
would be emphasised by the adoption of the proposition which I think fell
from my friend on the left at the previous meeting, that the senior Prime
Minister present from over the sea might very fittiugly preside at some, at all
events, of the meetings of conferences of this kind in the absence of the Prime
Minister of this country, and perhaps in the absence of his immediate or
usual deputy. That, too, may appear to some to be a comparatively formal
question, but if it -were needed to convey by means of an object lesson to
the dominions beyond the sea a true perception of the generosity with which
we are treated liere, and of the footing on which the Government of this
country has always consented to meet us, I do not think any object lesson,
more expressive than that could be obtained. I do not dwell upon these
points as of importance in themselves, but the number of people who are able
to be impressed with an idea, or with a suggestion of a principle, only, or
most effectively, by some such means is great. I am sure the Secretaiy of
State for the Colonies does not suspect me of any other motive than that of
adding to the dignity and usefulness of this body.

••

The suggestion which I have the temerity to make as to the association
of the self-governed comnmnities with the Prime Minister, was, I felt fully
aware, open to severe criticisms, but it is recommended very strongly for
special reasons. It is a symbol ; it is a recognition parallel with, and exactly
of the same character as has be^n embodied in the phrase that this is a
meeting of governments with governments, or Prime Ministers with Prime
Ministers, as Sir Wilfred Laurier happily put it. Again, the idea passed

43

tkrough my mind, tlioiigli I have not endeavoured to work it out in detail, SucoikI Day.

that as this Conference was one of governments with governments its it April 1vm)T.

Secretariat is intended to represent all those governments. It should there-

fore be presided over, being in this countrj', by the Prime Minister of Great l'it'>i'"!<Ki>

Britain. I think it was again my friend on the left who put that. /V'.!'" V'

Dr. JAMESON : The Conference is presided over by the Prime
Minister, but the Prime Minister would not preside over the Secretariat.

Mr. DEAKIN : He must, according to my thinking, to this extent,
because the Secretariat is in this country and he is the Prime Minister of
this country and practicallj' the only Prime Minister always in this country.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier takes the practical point, that there must be a head, and
that with us means a responsible Minister, to whom this Secretariat should look.
Even if it were constituted on the plan which Dr. Jameson suggested, there
must still be some person to whom constant reference may be made, and
whose yes or no in the conduct of affairs is final. There must be executive
authority. If an office of that kind were established, the head of it could
only be the Prime Minister of Great Britain. He is the only Prime ^Minister
available for that pur230se. It would be an office of all the Governments, so
to speak, but as an office under the active executive direction, so far as that
is needed, of the Prime Minister himself.

Dr. JAMESON : Under him as representing all the others. You can
put it that way.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is matter of discussion. I am endeavouring to
reply to Sir Wilfrid Laurier's inquiry, at the same time appropriating my
friend's arguments ami suggestions.

Dr. JAMESON : The Prime Minister, as representing all the Prime
Ministers.

Mr. DEAKIN : He represents all the Prime Ministers, but he primarily
represents his own Parliament, and the Parliament of this country would
require to be satisfied that their Prime Minister's authority, so far as it went,
was actual and not nominal. There must be some authority over the
Secretariat, and the proper authority appears to me to be the Prime Minister
of England. I admit, with Sir Wilfrid Laurier, that the tasks of Prime
Ministers, even in outlying countries, are great. Sir Joseph Ward, Dr. Jameson,
and no doubt all round this table, Avould bear almost universal testimony that
none of us having experience of that office find the day long enough, or our
capacities for work equal to what we wish. But that is so in all communities,
and is only proportionately greater in the greatest of communities. Every
Prime Minister in every part of this Empire knows perfectly well that he or his
successor must be prepared, as the years pass by, to take more and more
responsibility. It becomes a matter of selection, putting some responsibilities
aside, and adopting others in their stead. The mere fact that a pi-oposal
means more work i'or an already over-burdened man, if that were the final
argument, would cripple our political development altogether. Lord Elgin
said with perfect accuracy that there would be, and in fact there are, a
great many connnunications passing l)etween the self-governing Colonies
and any central office in London. \\Tien I said there would be only a small
nmnber I meant a small number really calling for the personal attention of
the Prime Minister himself. As you, Lord Elgin, are aware, a great nimiber
of our despatches are requests for information or replies to requests for

44

Secoud Day.
17 April 1907.

Proposed

1MPERIA.L

Council.
(Mr. Deakiii.)

information, or deal with matters of that kind, which, so far as you are
concerned, need not reach you at all, except in the sense that you are satisfied
your officers do their duty.

CHAIRMAN : I think I made an observation with reference to that point
that it woidd mean the creation of a new office of considerable size.

Mr. DEAKIN : The idea we have of it would be that those matters
woidd still go to the departments which now deal with them. There is no
idea of appointing an immense secretariat to cope with them. All the depart-
ments of this Government would remain — the Colonial Office, the Foreign.
Office, the Board of Trade — and matters of inquiry and ordinary communi-
cations w^ould go to those departments as a matter of course. What I thought
might be attached to the Prime Minister personally were those despatches
which have respect to the exercise of the self-governing fvmctions of self-
governing communities, all great constitutional questions or matters involving
constitutional questions. Those happily do not arise frequently, and would
not therefore involve so great a tax upon his time as might at first sight
appear to be implied. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I have
hesitated to speak at the length that the subject really demands, because I
thought we were rather approaching a general agreement to be followed up
by dealing with points detail by detail. I apologise for having taken so long,
but cherish these ideas believing they can be realised at once with great
profit and with a still stronger conviction that ultimately the development of
these Conferences is likely to be in this direction. I do not belittle the work
of the Colonial Office — it is simply gigantic — but the Colonial Office finds it
necessary to omit India. It was recognised to be perfectly impossible for
this Office to include the administration of that vast country- with its
enoirmous population. In the same way the Colonial Office must expect to
see the self-governing communities outgrow its capacity for control, which is
not capable of being indefinitely extended. I think the Secretary of State has
told us that he has as much work as he can transact at the present time, yet,
so far from the calls upon him diminishing from this great array of countries
whose names I see emblazoned on the outside of those wall maps, I know,
and we all know, that these calls are increasing, owing to the strides being
made in the development of those countries. I had the pleasure of reading
one speech of yours. Lord Elgin, and another by your able associate,
Mr. Winston Churchill, which conveyed to the people of this country and
our people some proper sense of the immensity of the great Crown colonies
of which w^e confess we do not possess much knowledge, any more than the
people here possess much knowledge of us. You have an enormous task of
administration tliere. But the successful administration of those Colonies
calls for methods of administration and treatment and begets an attitude
of mind, based upon presuppositions and preconceptions, which cannot be
escaped from but which do not at aU attach to self-governing states, which
are quite foreign to us, and give us a general sense of discussing a question
with persons wdio have already made up their minds upon it on another
basis altogether. Conseqiiently, I wish to say that it is no reflection to
say that this great department has already ample and growing work on its
hands apart from the self-governing communities, and that in course of time
it must expect to see those comnumities, first of all relieving the Department
by undertaking a good deal more for themselves, and next, by sending
their despatches to the Prime Minister, where they will not be jostled in a
Department over-burdened with administrative work alike and yet different
in character.

45

Sir JOSEPH WARD : lu reference to the resolution moved by New
Zealand, which appears to have conveyed the impression, as I infer from some
observations that have been made, that we wanted to have an Imperial
Council of an executive character, or with some autliority to act independently
of the British Government or of our own Governments, I would just like to
say that on receipt of the despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies
asking what resolution the New Zealand Government desired to submit, I
sent a raemorandiim to his Excellency the Governor without any resolutions
at all. I gave him a heading of the subjects that New Zealand thought
should come up here for consideration. My own view was that it was not
desirable to submit resolutions from our Colony, and it was only on further
application fi-om the Governor, requesting that it should be sent in the form
of a resolution, that 1 responded to it. I wanted to make that clear, because the
resolution I submit is " That it woidd be to the advantage of the Empire, and
" facilitate the dealing with questions that affect the Oversea Dominions, if
" an Imperial Council were established to which each of the self-governing
" Colonies could send a representative." I may say that in public utterances
of mine in my own country I have made it clear that such a Council would
be a Council of advice, and of advice only, and I have not suggested at any
time in our country that we should be responsible for the creation of an
Imperial Council which should have executive authority, because I am
personally opposed to it. I believe it Avould be an impossibility for us to
carry on satisfactorily our present system of self-government if any such body
were created with any such authority, between our Government and the
British Government. I do not wish the impression to go abroad that I
have proposed establishing anything of the kind, because I have not. In that
respect I wish to say that the criticisms of the general views put forth in
reference to the body that might be created in England, so far as I am
concerned, really do not apply, and I wish to add that the people in my
country are not favourable to such a suggestion.

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

PltOl'O^EU

Impekial
Council.

CHAIRMAN : I think I put it hypothetically. -^-3

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so ; but a hypothetical observation Avhen
seen in cold print might convey an impression that the Colony itself was
desirous of doing something which we are not desirous of doing,
to which I am personally opposed, and to which I have never been
favourable. Then I do not quite understand, and I should like to have
information upon it, what was conveyed by the Secretary of State for the
Colonies when he asked the question " will the Colonial Office provide for the
continuity desired ? "

CHAIRMAN : Will the Conference ask the Colonial Office to provide the
continuity ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Do you mean the expense ?

'■ CHAIRMAN : No. I mean that we should provide the organisation.
What I meant was that if the Conference approved we were ])repared to
prepare a scheme for providing the continuity which is aimed at in these
resolutions.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : As a permanency, do you mean ?

CHAIRMAN : Yes, as a permanency.

46

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

Proposed
Imperial
Council.

Sir JOSEPH WARD ; Then, I now quite understand the point. I only-
want to make it perfectly clear as I tried to do during the course of my
observations — and I was limiting my observations necessarily with a view to
having a preliminary discussion upon this matter — that, so far as New
Zealand is concerned, we have never had anything but the highest respect for
the gentlemen who from time to time have tilled the office of governor in our
countiy. We have found the governors sent out from time to time, men of
the liighest integrity, and their desire has been not only to help the Old
Land, but to help the land to which they have been sent as representatives of
the King. In that respect I am not suggesting for a moment a permanency
of advice as between the respective Prime Ministers of the self-governing
countries and the representative appointed by the Old Land itself. In regard
to the machinery that has existed up to now, we are not reflecting upon it in
any way whatever, and, last of all, I neither conveyed, nor have I ever had
any impression that the Colonial Office and the important executive officers
of the Colonial Office have done anything other than their duty in every
possible way and with the greatest possible satisfaction to the people
of our country. I do want to say, however, on that suggestion of Lord
Elgin, that, of course, I was aware of the system of communications being
forwarded to the respective governments, and also of their having the
right to communicate with one another. That is the case ; but there are
subjects upon which, under existing conditions, except privately or semi-
officially, I, for one, would not presiime to send a commimication to the Prime
Minister of another country. There are some matters which I think we ought
to have the right to confer with one another upon. Again, I am not finding
fault with the present machinery or system under which commxmications are
sent to our governments. Far from it ; but in our country there are matters
which crop up, which, in their general bearing, are of importance to ourselves,
upon which I want the opportunity and the right 1o have a consultation with,
or advice from, other Prime Ministers if I so desire. The all-important fact
exists that the present system is incomplete, and if a permanent Conference
is established, including the Prime ]\linister of England, we could be in
consultation with each other on matters of consequence to our countries
which are growing at an enormous rate, and which are so scattered. I wish
to make that clear, because I recognise the difficidties in establishing a basis
to create an Imperial Conference, and those difficulties have presented them-
selves right away in the course of this discussion. I want, as far as I am
concerned, to make it clear that I am broaching this question, not with the
object of being put upon my defence from the point of view of the present
work of the Colonial Office, because that is not in question so far as I am
concerned. On the contrary, I think they do the work in a way that no one
can reasonably find fault with ; but the point is rather the difficulties created
by our self-governing coimtries growing at such an enonnous pace, and,
there being a desire on their part to be brought into closer contact Avith each
other and wdth the Mother Land, and the real issue is can we establish some
permanent institution to enable us to discuss important matters of mutual
concern, and above all, for the strengthening of the Old World and the New
World too. So far as New Zealand is concerned, I wish at once to say that
whatever decision is arrived at as to how the work should be carried on in
the interval between Conferences, we are prepared to adopt any si*ggestion
made to bear our full proportion of the cost entailed.

Mr. DEAKIN : The secretariat will not stand on a popular basis imless
that responsibility is accepted. The contribution may be calculated on any
proportion you like.

47

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The matter of cost can easily be decided.
The question is, whether such a bodj' as is contemplated would really be
conducive to efficiency for the carrying out of the objects we have in mind.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : Supposing a secretariat were established
you would utilise that as a machine for inter-colonial communication passing
between one Colony and another in which the Imperial Government were not
directly involved ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes.

Dr. JAMESON : And also where the Imperial Government is involved.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : Quite so ; but that would be one of the
functions of such body.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, a sort of nexus.

Mr. F. R. ]\IOOR : I have listened very patiently this morning, and it
seems to me that there is a considerable amount of dissatisfaction as regards
the want of continuity of the interest which obtains with respect to these
Conferences every four years. It is exceedingly interesting to have listened
to all the tentative proposals made here tliis morning, and I think we should,
perhaps, get a better purview of the whole position if Lord Elgin would give
us his idea of the machinery that he would suggest. We would then get a
general view of the whole position, and I think Ave could come to a conclusion
more intelligently after having all the proposals laid before us.

Second Day.
7 April 1907.

Proposed
Imperial

COCNCIL.

Dr. JAMESON ; I was going to suggest the same thing. Some of us
have adumbrated a scheme of our own which certainly has not met with
universal approval all round. You, my Lord, have not a scheme yourself, but
you have practically indicated to ixs that His Majesty's Government is in
favour of doing something to bring about continuity and making a link
between the Conferences. We are not talking about a link between the
Imperial Government and the Governments of the self-governing Colonies,
but a link between the Conferences. You have indicated that the Imperial
Government would be inclined to do that, and we have indicated a link — at
least, Mr. Deakiu, Sir Joseph Ward, and I have — by means of the secretariat
which we have ventured to sketch out. Certainly that has not met with
approval from Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and only a qualified approval £rom
General Botha. If you will help us with some idea of how the Colonial Ofiice
will be able to link up the Conferences, we will be able to get on further.

CHAIRMAN : I said at the beginning that I supposed after the
discussion, following the practice of other Conferences, some attempt would
be made to arrive at a resolution, and, therefore. I thought it my duty to
draft — purely for consideration, of course, — a resolution which I am prepared
to read. I may say that we base this on a resolution of the last Conference
with the necessary alterations. This is the draft which has been prepared :
" That it will be to the advantage of the Empire if (Imperial) Conferences
" are held every four (or five) years at which questions of common interest
" affecting the relation? of the j\lother Country and His Majesty's Dominions
" over the seas may be discussed and considered as between the Government
" of the United Kingdom and the Prime Ministers and Governments of the

48

Second Day.
17 April 1907.

Pkopo sed
Imperial
Council.

(Chairman.)

self-governing Colonies. The Secretary of State for the Colonies is
requested to arrange for such Imperial Conferences after communication
with the Prime Ministers of the respective Colonies. In case of any
emergency arising upon which a special Imperial Conference may have
been deemed necessary, the next ordinary confere]ice to be held not sooner
than three years thereafter. That it is desirable to establish a system by
which the several Governments represented shall be kept infomied during
the pei'iods between the Conferences in regard to matters which have been
or may be subjects for discussion, by means of a permanent secretarial staff,
charged, under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, with
the duty of obtaining information for the use of the Conference, of attending
to its resolutions, and of conducting correspondence on matters relating to its
aifairs. That upon matters of importance requiring consultation in common
either in this country or in the Colonies between two or more of the
Governments which cannot conveniently be postponed until the next Con-
ference or which involve subjects of a minor character, subsidiary Conferences
should be held between representatives of the Colonies and of the Mother
Country specially chosen for the purpose."

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I assume that in this resolution New Zealand,
now known by the term " Colony," will be included in the expression
" Dominion," which I think it ought to be.

Mr. DEAKIN : I think it would be advantageous if we could have that
in print and commence with it to-morrow morning.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I was going to make the very same
suggestion — that we should have it in print, so as to have the opportunitj''
of looking into it.

CHAIRMAN : We approach the hour for adjournment, and perhaps the
Conference would like to adjourn now and consider this resolution to-morrow
morning.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Could we have a copy of that resolution before it
comes up to-morrow ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I beg to submit to the Conference the following
resolution : " That this Conference desires to express its regret at the death
" of the late Mr. Seddon, and its sense of the loss the Empire has thereby
" sustained." No words of mine are necessary to commend this resolution,
expressive of our regret at the demise of a great Imperial and Colonial
statesman. I am sure that will be the opinion of us all.

CHAIRMAN : Certainly.

Tills was carried unanimously.

Adjourned to to-morrow at 11 o'clock.

49

THIRD DAY. Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Stueet,
Thursday, 18th April «1907.

Present :

Tli(> Pti-lit, nonourable The EARF. OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of State

for the Colonics (President).

The Right Honoural^le Sir Wilfrid LlVURIER, G.O.M.G., Prime Minister
of Canada.

The Hononrahle Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G.. Minister of .Militia and
Defence (Canada).

Th(> Honourable Ij. P. Prodeur, Minister of ^larine and Fisheries
(Canada).

The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Commonwealth
of Australia.

The Honourable Sir William Eyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of State for

Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Wai:d, K.C.^I.G., Prime Minister of New

Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.P., Prime Minister of Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape

Colony).
The Honourable F. R. oMoou, Prime ^Minister of Natal.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretaiy of State

for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the India Office.

Mr. H. W. Just, C.B C.M.G., V,^.„^ 5^,^,.^,,^^^^^^^^^^
Mr. (i. W. Johnson, C.M.G., )

I\lr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretarjj.

Also present :

Sir G. S. Clarke, G.C.M.G., Secretan- of the Committee of Imperial

Defence.
Captain J. R. Chancellor, D.S.O., R.E., Secretary of the Colonial

Defence Committee.

/; 1SG68. I)

50

0

Third Day. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : May I be allowed to ask a question ?

18 April 1907.

CHAIRMAN: Certainly.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Y''esterday I tried to listen to the discussion
which took place ; I could not hear it very well, and I want to know exactly
what my position, at any rate, is at the Conference. ' If it is to sit and listen I
might as well Ije somewhere else. I am sitting a long way away from my
Prime Minister and I cannot communicate with him when the discussions are
going on ; and what I want to know, Sir, is whether it would be out of order
if I, or anyone who desired to say a word or two upon any cpiestion, were
either to ask to be allowed to do so or to do so. There was a matter yesterday
\\-hich I did not understand was completed until I saw it this morning in
reference to the word "Imperial." 1 wanted to say a word or two about that
because I do not agree with it unless the word " Imperial " is explained
as to what its intended meaning is. All I want to ask you. Sir, now, is
exactly what position I hold at the Conference. I understood we were to
be full members of the Conference, Imt I did not feel I was so yesterday.

CHAIRMAN : I think. Sir William, you were not present when we were
discussing this on the former occasion.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I was, part of the time.

CHAIRMAN : What I understood — and I speak in the presence of my
ooUeag-ues — the position to be was this, that in future we would not maintain
the absolute rule which was laid down at the last Conference by which the
membership of the Conference was confined strictly to the Prime Ministers
themselves but that we would admit to the Conference Room freely any
Minister belonging to the Governments of the Colonies who accompanied
their Prime Ministers. They were therefore to come into the room and to be
entitled to sit at the taljle, l)ut I also suggested, and I think it was accepted
by the inembers of the Conference, that we shoidd continue the practice, that
their presence was to assist the Prime Ministers and that, therefore, it
depended on the subject under discussion which of any number of Ministers
in attendance should take part in the particular discussion, and that it shoidd
be an honouralde understanding between us that not more than one Minister
from each Colony should give assistance to his Prime Minister at one and the
same meeting. I think that correctly represents the state of affairs. If there
is anything in which I have not correctly represented it perhaps some one
will correct me.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Y'ou will see it is quite impossible for me to
confer with my Prime Minister, and, therefore, I cannot be of any assistance
to bini.

CHAIRMAN : With regard to places at the table, I am entirely in the
hands of the Conference, but as soon as any cpiestion came up on which a
Prime Minister wished to confer with his minister we would place him next
to his Prime Minister. I thought on this occasion as it was a question of the
constitution of the Conference itself it would be more convenient that the
Prime Ministers shoidd sit near this end of the table, but I am entirely in
your hands in that respect.

Sir WILLIAM LY'NE : I do not want to seem persistent, but the position
that I feel myself placed in is this : I am present, my mouth is shut. I have

51

to take iill the responsibilities of what takes place here, and I do not feel at ^^'"^..^.907
all disposed to do it under tliose conditions. "* ^P"

Sir William
Sir WILFrJD I.AURTEll: The position I took up was that the Prime Ltne.

Ministers should be assisted by their colleagues. That was inj^ view from
the first, and it is still my view. My view was that any Prime Minister who
had the benefit of ihe presence of his colleagues here in the city, would bo
very much more satisfied if he had the assistance of those colleagueb at tho
Conference.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I cannot hear.

Sir Wn.FRID LAURIER : I say that the position I, for Canada, took
up was that the Prime Ministers should have the privilege of l)eing assisted by
heir colleagues, that was my view from the first. J put it to the Conference,
but I did not press it to a conclusion as there seemed a difference of opinion
prevailing : but so far as I am concerned you are welcome to take part in the
proceedings as if you were the Prime Minister himself.

Sir WILLL4M LYNE : My feeling, if I may express it, is that I came
from Australia expecting to take part in this Conference to a certain extent.
I am here to take all the responsibility which I will have to bear, and the
records will show whether I am present or not, but I am not allowed even to
say two words, excepting it is a case where I miglit be asked to come here,
and I think it would be better not to take that responsibility unless I can sit
close to my Prime Minister, where I should have liked to be yesterday.

Dr. JAMESON : It seems to me, Sir William Lyne, that Lord Elgin has
explained that you have a perfect right, and I understood the Conference to
agree that the Prime Ministers would not on any particular occasion be
assisted by more than one ; but it is between the Prime ]\Iinister and the
colleague how much the Prime Minister should do, and how much the
colleague. We have admitted that the Prune Minister can have his colleague
talking upon one motion, so long as it is one only, as much as the Prime
Minister himself if he likes ; so that I think Sir William Lyne is really part
of the Conference and entitled to speak.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am only a small part. I am not half of myself
quite.

Dr. JAMEISON : HaLE of your Prime Minister.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : All these arrangements are temporary. We
are discussing the constitution of the Conference, and that is a thing to be
settled, which is before us yet.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I did not want to say much on any Init one or
two matters, but at the same time I wanted to know exactly the position I
am in because I do not want to get up and say anything and be called to
order. I desire to know beforehand whether or not I woidd be in order
if I wanted to interject something or speak. I do not know how to get by
my Prime Minister, but if I was able to talk to him at the table it would
obviate a very great deal of the objection I have. Sitting so far away from
my Prime Minister so that I cannot confer with him places me in a very
awkward position, a position I was never placed in before and I am not going
to be now.

D 2

52

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OK THE

Conference.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not see auy objection to Sir William
Lyne sitting next to Mr. Deakin.

[Another member of the Conference was understood to say that both
Mr. Deakin and Sir W. Lyne could speak on any one subject.]

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not like to disturb anyone, but I do not wish
to have a feeling without expressing it.

FUTURE CONSTITUTION OF THE CONFERENCE.

CHAIRMAN : May we proceed ? We came yesterday to the point at
which a draft resolution was submitted by myself and at the request of the
Conference it was circulated for consideration by the Prime Ministers before
this meeting. It will be for the Conference to say whether they would desire
to consider this in the same form as we did yesterday, that is to say in the
form of a general discussion, or whether they would now proceed to deal with
it more in detail, that is to say by the paragraphs into which it is divided.
I may have myself one or two suggestions to make with regard to the
different parts of it and I have no doubt other members will, but I
might perhaps be permitted to say this much at the beginning that
after the meeting I thought it desirable to inform the Prime Minister
as to the views expressed by, I think I may say, all the members of the
Conference, that it would be desirable that the Prime Minister of the United
Kingdom should be designated a member of the Conference, and I think it
may be satisfactory to the Conference to know that my right honourable
friend would not raise any objection to that course being taken if the
Conference should think fit. If that was done I would venture to suggest —
and I think it is better to mention it now, becaiise it carries out the idea —
that the wordiuff mi.a:ht be a little altered in order to make that effective.

and perhaps
" the

I

advantage

might

read the first paragraph.

That it will be to
of the Empiire if Conferences to be called Imperial
" Conferences are held every four or five years, at which questions of
" common interest affecting the relations of the Mother Country and His
" Majesty's Dominions over the seas may be discussed and considered as
" between Plis Majestj^'s Government and the Governments of the self-
" governing Colonies. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be
" ex-oflficio President, and the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies
" ex-officio members of the Conference. The Secretary of State for the
" Colonies will be an ex-officio member of the Conference, and will take the
" chair in the absence of the President, and will ai-range for such Imperial
" Conferences after communication with the Prime Ministers of the respective
" Colonies." That would give practical effect to the suggestion.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin, would there be any objection to
commence this Resolution by affirming the desirability of establishing a
permanent Imperial Conference ? My own view, looking for\vard to the
work of regular Conferences, is that we should at this Conference give an
affirmative expression to the establishment of a permanent Imperial Con-
ference, and if you woidd agree (it is on the lines really of what is proposed
in the Resolution) I would suggest that we should commence it by stating
that " in the interests of the Euipire it is desirable to establish a pennauent
Imperial Conference."

CHAIR]\LAlN : What is the meaning of the word " permanent " ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD: The meaning of the word "pemianent" is to
affirm permanent Conferences at regular periods. There is no constitution

53

for a Conference; if it were possible to frame a Constitution by Avhich a 1 bird Day. ^

Conference could beset up the word " pennanent " would be unnecessary 18 April 190..

as the constitution itself would imply permanency. In the absence of a FtxtRE

Constitution I think we ought to affirm permanency or continuity in some Constititiux

way, so that at all events the pidjlic could imderstand that this is intended to ok the

bo a permanent Imperial Conference. I do not attach very great importance Cosfekesck.

to the actual word " permanent," but I think up till now it has been looked (Sir^

upon as a sort of irregular assemblage of the responsible heads of the Joseph ar .;
Governments of the different parts of the Empire, and in my opinion it is
desirable to state that it is a permanent Imperial Conference

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Do you not think that is met by the new
draft ? Would you please read it again, Lord Elgin ?

CHAIRMAN: "That it will be to the advantage of the Empire if
Conferences, to be called Imperial Conferences, are held every four or five
years, at which questions of common interest affecting the relations of the
Mother Country and His ]\laje3ty's dominions over the seas may be discussed
and considered as between His Majesty's Goverxmient and the Governments of
the seK-governing Colonies. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will
be ex-ojjicio President, and the Prime Ministers of the self-governing Colonies
ex-offic'w Members of the Conference. The Secretary of State for the Colonies
will be an ex-officio Member of the Conference, and will take the chair in the
absence of the President, and will arrange for such Imperial Conferences
after coniniunication with the Prime Ministers of the respective Colonies. In
the case of any emergency arising upon which a special Imperial Conference
may have been deemed necessary, the next ordinary Conference to be held
not sooner than three years thereafter."

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, I think that does carry it out cleaHy, Sir.
That is really a detinite proposal to have a permanent series of conferences
eveiy fouj- or five years ; that resolution, if passed, will, I think, meet the
point I have been urging.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCIHLL : You cannot have any higher sanction
for the Conference than the resolution of the previous Conference.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so ; I am perfectly satisfied.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am perfectly satisfied also with the draft
as far as it goes, as far as it has been read, that the Conference should meet
periodically ; but I would like to suggest, on the lines of the suggestion made
by Sir William Lyne, that it would be greatly to the advantage of the
members of the Conference if they coidd have the advice of their colleagues.
We come here to meet questions of general interest, upon which the Prime
Minister is quite able to talk for his Government ; but there are of necessity
questions of a peculiar character which are better dealt Avith by the
Minister of the particular Department concerned — for instance, questions of
war, cpiestions of navigation, and questions of emigration. I feel that upon
all these questions it is greatly to my advantage that I have my colleague, Avho
is the Minister of Militia and Defence, and my colleague who is the Minister of
Marine and Fisheries. I feel, also, the loss of my colleague, the Minister of
Finance. Those gentlemen come for the veiy purpose, and they can simply,
as we have done in the past, talk upon these peculiar subjects in which they
are more directly interested. But their position is rather awkward, because
they have simply to dance attendance, having nothing to do, although they
are qualified to speak more even than I am, and more than my friend,
Mr. Deakin, on the questions of their special departments. It is a position

4866S. D 3

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future

Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

(Sir
Wilfrid Laurier.)

54

which is somewhat unsatisfactorj' to them that in the meantime, as Sir
William Lyne pointed out, they have simply to fold their arms and do nothing.
Therefore the amendment I woidd suggest would be that the Conference
should be composed, as stated here, of the Prime Ministers, but with the
privilege (I do not like this word " Colonies " — the Govermnents of the
Dependencies Beyond the Seas) " to be assisted by a certain number of their
" colleagues." say not to exceed three, for instance. I would not like to make
the body unwieldy in its nimiber, and I would limit the number to three.

CHAIRjMAN : May I make a personal explanation, I did not mean in
any way to go back xipon what we had settled, and, therefore, the only thing
I dealt with here is whether they were ex-officio members. When I proposed
that it should be " discussed and considered as between His Majesty's
" Government and the governments of the seK-governing Colonies," I left it
entirely open what the rei^resentation of the self-governing Colonies as of His
Majesty's Government would be.

Sir WHjFRID LAURIER : The Conference should be composed ex-
officio of the Prime Minister of England, the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, also ex-officio, and then the Prime Ministers of the diiferent self-
governing Colonies ex-officio, with the further privilege for the local govern-
ments to determine the number of representatives they should send here, but
I would limit the number so as not to make the Conference unwieldy. If
there were five, or sis, or seven from each government, there Avould be too
large a party to sit at this Board, but if you were to limit it to a certain
number, I would suggest three, subject to amendment, and I think that
would obviate the diflicxdty wliich Sir William Lyne has indicated.

Dr. JAMESON : And that these Ministers should be actual members of
the Conference ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes.

General BOTHA : With the right of voting ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : No ; I would only give one vote for one
government, but give the right to participate in all discussions.

ilr. DEAKIN : That diiiers from the arrangement adopted on the last
day — I forget on whose proposition — that Ministers should be always heard on
questions affecting their Departments and at other times, but not more than
two in any debate.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not mean it for this Conference,
!Mr. Deakin, we are settling now the Conference not for this time, but for the
future. We have made special arrangements for the present case, and this
proposal is not to come into force now. This is what I would suggest for the
future.

Mr. DEAKIN : I understand ; you propose a different procedulce.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin proposes: "Thai it wiU be
to the advantage of the Empire if conferences to be called Imperial
" Conferences are held every four or five years " (for my part I think
five years a very good period) " at which questions of common interests
" affecting the relations of the Mother Country and His Majesty's dominions
" over the seas may be discussed and considered as between His Majesty's

55

" Government " (I like this expression) " and the governments of the self-
" governing Colonies. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will
" be ex-officio President," and I would suggest, not with a view to
framing the resolution to-day, for consideration the point which we have
pressed on the Colonial Dlfice, but which they could not accede to at this
Conference, so as to obviate the difficulty put before us in a very strong way
by Sir William Ljme. I feel, and Mr. Deakin must feel also, the advantage
of having the benefit of colleagues here who are to discuss the questions
affecting navigation and affecting war. 1 miss, as I said before, the presence
of my colleague the Minister of Finance, but I do not like to bring these
colleagues of mine to London simply to be silent and to speak when called
upon.

Dr. JAMESON : I think Mr. Deakin is not quite correct in saying that
we consented at this Con Terence that colleagues should only deal with matters
affecting their own Departments.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is sul^ject to what Lord Elgin has already said.
Lord Elgin has already pointed out that any one Minister can speak with
his chief.

Dr. JAMESON : That would limit it very much as we might want to
bring in the Minister of Defence. I have not been able to bring the Minister
of Defence and I have brought the one who knows most about matters outside
that Department.

CHAIRMAN • For the advice which the Prime Minister wishes he must
make the selection.

Tilird Dny.
18 April 191)7.

KlTLliE
CoNSTITl'TIOV

OF THE
CoNKEKESCE.

(Sir
Wilfrid Laurior.)

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin, I should like to say that personally I
am desirous of seeing this Conference reasonably widened, but I think we
want to look at the matter dispassionately and to approach this subject a little
more cautiously. Taking the proposal of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, whose ^Ministers
I think ought to be here and upon matters appertaining to their Departments
should take the place of the Prime Minister in discussing them, that I agree
with entirely ; but if Ave are to have the principle established of up to three
Ministers coming fronx the self-governing Colonies, each taking part in all
debates, then ol;)viously you place the far distant countries at a complete
disadvantage. In the case of New Zealand it woidd be impossible for three
responsible Ministers to leave our country for the time we have to in order to
attend this Conference ; and if we want to have anything like uniformity of
procedure, then I think the original idea suggested as the outcome of the
former discussion that the colleagues of the Prime ]\Iinister who are here
should undeniably have the right to take part in discussing all matters
affecting their respective Departments, is the right one ; but personally, I woidd
ask for very careful consideration before we affirm the general principle for
the future government of the Conferences of having up to three Ministers
coming here and taking part in all discussions.

Dr. JAMESON : But not in voting ; it is one vote. We want the
best information we can get from any minister.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : "Yes, I concur that one vote is right, but 1 can
only say that in the case of New Zealand — and I am quite prepared to
subordinate my own views upon this matter to the general interests of the
Conference — undeniably we would be here with in all probability one
representative at the future Conferences and that one representative would

D 4

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

(Sir
Joseph Ward.)

56

have to do the best he could with the difficult and intricate matters
afEecting the various Departments that his different ministers control.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I see the force of what you say and I
realise, that in this respect, Canada has an advantage over aU the other
Colonies ; we are so near England ; we are next neighbours while you are
far away, and I see the force of your objection. I put it before the Conference
for reflection ; I do not want to have it disposed of to-day. These are matters
upon which I do not want to put anybody to inconvenience. I have put the
matter before the Conference and I would like you to think it over and
perhaps we can take it up at a later stage.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I quite agree.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : It does not affect the substantive part of
the Resolution.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Not at aU. The new draft proposed by
Lord Elgin, so far as this part of the subject goes, satifies me completely. It
meets, I think, to a large extent, the views of Mr. Deakin also.

Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN : Then we might pass it on the understanding that with
regard to the position and number of members outside the Prime Ministers
we reserve that point for later definition. I should wish just to say, as I
think I said befoi-e, that as far as His Majesty's Government is concerned,
we are delighted to see the Ministers from the different Colonies and to have
the advantage of the knowledge which they bring, but I did feel the point
which Sir Josej^h Ward has put, although I did not think it was for me to
raise it ; I felt that it probably would be raised and that is one of the reasons
why I did not attempt to deal with it in this draft.

Dr. JAMESON : Before we pass it, should we not define the nimiber of
years ; this four or five seems rather loose.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : This is only tentative, but since Dr. Jameson
has brought that point forward it has seemed to me that even five years is a
very short period. You cannot meet here except at great inconvenience to
some of us, and it is difficult to find a date, but if the Conference think
differently then let the word stand. I suggested myself six years at the last
Conference.

CHAIRMAN : Three was also suggested, and four was taken as a
compromise.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Exactly.

CHAIRMAN : I understood one objection to the three or six^is that it
might interfere with the elections in certain cases ; there are triennial
Parliaments as was mentioned by Mr. Scddon.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Ours is triennial.

CHAIRMAN : Therefore taking it by threes might interfere with the
elections and be an inconvenience.

57

Sir WILFRID LAURTER : Ours is five.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : The world is moving very rapidly and I think
five years would be a sufficient distance between the Conferences ; but I agree
with Dr. Jameson that it ought to be defined.

CHAIRMAN : Yes, that is only put in brackets, and you will observe
that in case of emorgoncy ami a special Imperial Conference special
arrangements would be made.

Dr. JAMESON : Cannot we propose it as five years now ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I would not offer any serious objection to five
years.

Mr. DEAKIN : I beg pardon, surely four years is quite long enough ?
It depends, of course, upon and is governed by several considerations, among
them the duration of Parliaments. In New Zealand and Australia, the
duration of Parliament is three years ; that practioallj' means in each case
that either a different Administration or an Administration that has appealed
again to the people and received their confidence would be present. This
period, so far as we are concerned, appears to meet the necessities of the
case. I am far from saying that this ought to govern the period, but
approach the question from that individual experience with the idea that the
meetings of this Conference ought to be rather fixed at their minimum. If
circmnstances arise, as they did in regard to this present meeting, which make
the term five years instead of four, that is a matter for the members of the
proposed Conference, and it can be so resolved, but I venture to suggest that
four years is quite a long enough time to permit, and indeed to call for a
review of previous determinations, if they can be dignified by the use of
that rather strong word.

A further question will arise presently with reference to the bridging of
the interval between Conference and Conference. Obviously, the greater the
interval the greater the difficulty of bridging it and the greater the strain. It
may be that if these gatherings become regidar in the future, if they are
efficiently connected one with another, the question of the time, as it would
be perfectly open to re-consideration at any moment, might come up again,
but for us at this stage, with the Conferences in their present rudimentary
position, with their uncertain influence, and with the many new factors which
may require to be taken into account, it appears to me that four years is
rather a longer than a shorter period than would be desirable. I believe,
Sir WiKrid, you have quinquennial Parliaments.

Tliir.l Day.
18 April 190:.

FtTLRE

Constitution'

OK THE
CONKEKENCE.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes.

Mr. DEAKIN : I can quite understand that under those circumstances
the longer period Avould haiTOOuise with your circumstances, but, in spile
of the great burden which attendance here imposes upon those who may
liai^pen to be in office at the time, I am inclined to think that four years leaves
quite long enough a gap, and that, save under special circiunstances, that
should be the regular time of meeting. I would rather make it less than
more, but certainly, so far as I am individually advised, not more than
four years.

Sir JOSEPH WARD
Conference ?

What was the resolution passed at the former

Third Day. CHAIRMAN : Four years ; it was a compromise.

18 April 1907.

~ Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So far as I am concerned, the point is not

CoxsTiTUTioN worth pressmg.

OF THE

Conference. CHAIRMAN : As far as His Majesty's Government are concerned, they

are only too pleased to see 3^ou at any time, and what weighed with us
was really the question of the great inconvenience to those who have to
come.

Mr. DEAKIN : It is a great inconvenience, but it has to be f&,ced.

CHAIRMAN : What do you say. Dr. Jameson ?

Dr. JAMESON: I am in favour of the shorter period; I agree with
Mr. Deakin about that.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : It has been aptly put, Sir, that we are here to plant
a seed which may develop into a tree hereafter, and I think the more closely
that tree is being watched and matured the better, and I vote for the shorter
period. In process of time we may find, as the world is developing so
rapidly, that four years is quite a long enoiigh time to elapse before calling
together again such a Conference as this. I therefore vote for the shorter
period.

General BOTHA : I have no serious objection against the shorter period
of four j'ears, although personally I think five years woxold suit me very much
better.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : You will find in practice great inconvenience,
but I do not care about it ; the point is not worth pressing.

Mr. DEAKIN : The inconvenience is in a greater degree ours.

CHAIRMAN : Then shall we keep it four ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes ; in deference to the expressions of opinion
from the different members that I have heard I conciu'.

CHAIRMAN : Four years. We are no^v in a position to pass on to the
next point.

Mr. DEAKIN : " Questions of common interest," is perhaps as wide a
phrase as it is desirable to employ, because after all there is no such strict
restriction of common interest as to imply that each must necessarilj' affect
the interest of all. I merely mention this in passing, but the idea ^vith which
we used this phrase was that any qviestion which touches the interests of
more than one of the tlomiuions beyond the seas is a matter of oommon
interest and, further, that any matter which affects even one of those dominions
at a time, if it involves a principle capable of application to other dominions
is also a matter of connuou interest. I assume. Sir, that j^ou wiU take that
broad reading.

CHAIRMAN : I, certainly, myself, should not put a restrictive construc-
tion upon it to limit the force of the expression.

59

Dr. JAMESON: Referring to the words after "common interest" —
" afFectiug the relations of t\n.'. Mother Country and His Majesty's
" dominions over the seas," are those left out?

CHAIR^MAN : Xo. " That it will lie to the advantage of the Empire if
" Conferences, to be called Imperial Conferences, are held everj' four years, at
" which questions of common interest affecting the relations of the Mother
" Country and His Majesty's dominions over the seas may be discussed and
" considered."

Dr. JAMESON : That is the point, Tx)rd P'lgin. Is it necessary to limit
it by saying " affecting the relations " ? It goes without saying, of course,
that anything that happens to the Mother Country is of interest to every
individual nation over the seas. Why put in that limiting paragraph there ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Do j^ou propose to leave down to " the Mother
" Country"?

Dr. JAMESON : I should leave it out altogether, and say, " Questions of
common interest may be discussed and considered as between."

CHAIRMAN : It was taken from the old resolution ; that is how it
conies in.

Dr. JAMESON : I think the whole resolution might be improved upon.

Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly it is of advantage to shorten the resolution ;
that is one advantage.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : What would be your draft. Dr. Jameson ?

Dr. JAMESON : It would be, " four years, at which questions of coimnon
" interest may be discussed and considered as between the Government of
" the United Kingdom and the Governments," and so forth.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : Deleting the intermediate words ?
Dr. JAMESON : Yes ; they are superfluous.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not see that there is any difference. It
is better phrasing, that is all — less words.

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, less words. I am always for the idea of limitation.

CHAIRMAN : " At which questions of common interest may be discussed
" and considered as between His Majesty's Government," and so on ; that is
agreed to. Tlie second sentence begins : " The Prime Minister of the United
" Kingdom will be ex officio President, and the Prime Ministers of the sclf-
" governing Colonies ex officio members of the Conference." The third
sentence is : " The Secretary of State for the Colonies wiU be an ex officio
" member of the Conference, and will take the chair in the absence of the
" President."

Third D»y.
18 April 1907,

FlTTCRE

Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do not wish to take any objection to the proposal that
the Secretary of State for the Colonies should take the chair in the absence

60

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future

constitutiox

OF THE

Conference.
(Mr. Deakiii.)

of tlie President, except again to repeat the suggestion made yesterday that
this, instead of being an aljsohitely iron rule, might perhaps be expressed
less conclusively in order that at certain sittings where it might be thought
appropriate, the senior Prime Minister from one of theDominions over the seas
might have the compliment of presiding. I do not mean merely as a
formal compliment, but as carrying out the principle which has been so
gracefully accepted by the Prime Minister and the present Chairman of this
Conference. Put in this form I take no exception to it, except that it
appears to preclude the possibility of any other presidency than that of
either the Prime Minister of Great Britain, who certainly when present could
not give place to anyone, or his colleague, the Secretary of State for the
Colonies, who is certainly on the great bulk of the questions that will come
before such a Conference the proper person to appear as his representative ;
but need it be fi-amed so precisely ? Can we not put it in some slightly
laxer form which would permit of the Senior Prime Minister present being, if
it were thought fit or desirable, asked to occupj^ the chair by way of illustrating
the fact that this was a meeting, as has been expressed here, between

governraents.

I do not attach fundamental importance to it.

CHAIRMAN : May I say I have very carefully considered Mr. Deakin's
suggestion since he made it. I can only say for myself that nothing would
be more agreeable to me than to serve under the presidency of the present
senior member of the Conference, but I regard this simply as a matter of
convenience. It is quite common in all arrangements of life to have two
officers, one a President and another a Chairman, and I have specially avoided
the use of the word "Presidency" in this case, and said " take the "chair"
rather to put the Secretary of State in the position of the second officer of the
Conference, and for this reason I should be delighted to sit under the
presidency of my friend on the right ; but this is a question really of the man
who is to carry on tlie work ; he must make the whole arrangements for the
Conference, and the thing runs on that he shall do so, and I think, really, as a
matter of business arrangement, it is the most convenient thing that he should
be in the chair.

Mr. DEAKIN

I do not suggest otherwise.

CHAIRMAN : I do not in the least shut out the possibility. At the last
Conference, Mr. Chamberlain, for instance, was prevented by an accident from
presiding, and if such a thing happened to me to-morrow I think it would be
for the Conference to select their own Chairman.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is sufficient ; what I had in my mind was that
there might bo an occasion on Avhich the Prime Minister was necessarily
occupied elsewhere ; the Secretary of State for the Colonies might be
called for if he were a member of the active House to leave the Con-
ference. Under those circumstances I now understand that by this phrase
you leave it open.

CHAIRMAN : It may be left, as far as I am concerned, for the next
Conference to decide.

Mr. DEAKIN : There might be either no member of tlie British
Govermnent present, or simply the representative of some Dej)artnient, whose
subject was under discussion. What I wish to provide against in the most
considerate fashion is, that it should be implied from any statement to which

61

we commit ourselves that the Chairman must be any member of the British Third Day.
Government, and cannot be the senior Prime Minister. 18 April 1907.

CHAIRMAN : I do not wish to put that absolutely, but at the same time coxstitdtion
I must repeat my conviction that a member of the British Government would of the

be the most convenient man to choose. Coxfeeenck.

(Mr. Dcukiu.)

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : For my part, I must say that, according lo
the tituess of things, and according to what is accepted now, that this is a
Conference between Government and Govei'mnents ; the Chairman should be a
member of the British Government.

CHAIRMAN : I suppose this discussion Aviil Ije sufiicient for your
purpose, Mr. Deakin ?

Mr. DEAKIN : It is sufficient.

CHAIRMAN : Have we finished with the third sentence ?

Mr. DEAKIN: Would you mind taking that now?

CILVIR:\IAN : " The Secretary of State for the Colonies will be an
" ex-officio member of the Conference, and will take the chair in the absence
" of the President, and will arrange for such Imperial Conferences after
" coimnunication with the Prime Ministers of the respective Colonies."

]\Ir. DEAKIN : " Arrange " moans arrange as to precise date, arrange as
to agenda, arrange as to anything that may be necessary.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Upon that, I assume. Lord Elgiii, that in
arranging the agenda a similar procedure to that followed on this occasion
would be carrietl out?

CHAIRMAN : Yes, I think so, unless the Conference suggest anything
else.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is all. I want to see the present method
followed, because we may have some suggestions to senil for the agenda.

CHAIRMAN : Certainly. " In case of any emergency arising upon
" which a special Imperial Conference may have been deemed necessary,
" the next ordinary Conference to be held not sooner than three years
" thereafter."

Mr. DEAKIX : Is this necessary at aU ? You have fixed the period of
meeting as every four years.

CHAIRMAN : It is in the old resolution.

Mr. DEAKIN : I believe it is, but, having fixed a definite period of four
years, which, of course, is subject to some variation if necessity arises,
and supposing a special Conference to be convened, is it not for that

62

Third Day. Conference to consider in the first place and afterwards for the Secretary of

18 April 1907. State to arrange with the Dominions over the Seas for the date of the next

meeting. What have we to do wdth three years or two years, or any fixed

DTURE period now ? How can Ave iudge now V

Constitution ^ j &

OF THE

Conference. Dr. JAMESON : I think it is useless ; I do not think it matters very

(Mr. Deakiii.) much, because if a special Conference was siuumoned that Conference would

decide whether it was necessary to meet again within six months or four

years.

Mr. DEAKEN : I do not think we gain anything by it ; it is simpler
without it.

CHAIRMAN : That these words be omitted. (Carried.) That disposes
of the first paragraph, and we proceed now to the second paragraph : " That
" it is desirable to establish a system by which the several Governments
" represented shall be kept informed during the periods between the
" Conferences in regard to matters which have been or may be subjects for
" discussion by means of a permanent secretarial staft' charged under the
" direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies with the duty of
" obtaining information for the use of the Conference, of attending to its
" resolutions and of conducting correspondence on matters relating to its
" affairs."

Mr. DEAIvIN : As to the word " system " — " it is desirable to establish
" a system by which the several Governments represented shall be kept
" informed " — is that intended to cover all that follows, or does that imply
something more than the secretariat?

CHAIRMAN : I think we took it from the Australian resolution ; we
took as much as we could.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, but it has possibly a different complexion now.
I do not know that I can suggest any amendment. You have taken the
proposal that it is a system and you attach it then to the next sentence
" by means of a permanent secretarial staff."

CHAIRMAN: Yes.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do not know that this qualifies it.

CHAIRMAN : You want to make it a system ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes. The system is fixrther defined in the concluding
portion of the sentence, " obtaining information, attending to resolutions, and
conducting correspondence."

CHAIRMAN : That is also taken from the Australian resolution ?
Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN : I so entirely agreed with it that I wished to foUow it.

Mr. DEAKIN : I am looking at these words in their present association,
in order to endeavour to satisfy my mind as well as I can at the first hasty

63

perusal whether there are any limitations implied in this connection, and I
must say I am luiable to discover them. Tlic one addition which is made
here is, of course, ol the first importance. 'I'liis is to be done by means of a
permanent secretarial staff nuder the direction of the Secretaiy of State for
the Colonies. That means, I assume, that the secretarial staff is to be part of
the Colonial Office.

CHAIRMAN : Yes.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do not know in what sense it will be separated, if
separated at all, or distinguislied, if distinguished at all, from what may be
termed the general staff of the Colonial Office, but T hope I shall not be
considered to be unduly jjressing the point if I refer once more to the fact
that in this great department the gigantic interests with which its Minister and
officers are charged in connection with those dependencies to which allusion
was made yesterday, great in extent and dense in population, impose upon
them serious and incessant responsibilities. To that I have already alluded
in brief, and have no wish to repeat myself, but in addition this department is
associated with methods of government, of administration, of relation to
legislative councils and similar bodies, partially representative, or in some
cases, wholly representative, but which are alwaj's merely advisory, I think,
in the case of Crown Colonies.

CHAIRMAN : Not entirely advisory ; they have powers of legislation.

Tliinl Diiy.
18 April 1907.

FUTUKK
COXSTITUTIOM

OF THE
CONKERE.NCE.

(Mr. Deskiu.)

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes ; but that power of legislation is always subject
to a veto and general control of a verj;- complete character. Speaking
in a familiar way, therefore, the whole tendency of the whole of this
department, and ol its olHcers, is to become imbued, both consciously and
unconsciously, with principles of government properly applicable to the great
countries with which they are dealing day by day and hour l)y hoTir, but
which are very foreign, aud in some cases almost antagonistic, to the
principles on which the affairs of self-governing Colonies are conducted, and
must be conducted. It promotes a certain strangeness in the manner of
address occasionally adopted in the arguments suggestetl to us and the
propositions for their handling, which wovdd not be made by those who
were continually associated with the methods of making law and administtn-
ing law in self-governing countries. We have always felt that we labour
under a disadvantage, which we are quite justified in mentioning, but of
which we can scarcely complain, because it arises so naturally and inevitably
that those most subject to it are very often those who are least conscious of
it. One requires to move in a different constitutional atmosphere, to cope
with pidilic business in free legislatures, and to view questions from their
standpoint, in order to appreciate a contrast which is continually being
brought home to us. The object I had in venturing the suggestion was that
it might be of advantage to the Colonial Office with its ever-gi-owing
responsibilities and certainly woidd be of advantage to us to have the
secretariat under this Conference and working in direct relation to it,
separated from those Crown Colony associations which I have described
and connected directly with some member of the British Government. We
look first, of course, to the Prime Minister, who himself is constantly dealing
with his own Parliament, with his own Chambers of legislature and throngh
them with the electors whom he represents and whose wishes he is able
to interpret by that experience. He is already head of the Committee of
Imperial Defence and not liis coUeagiie the Secretary of State for War.
We, of course, are aware that in the ^Minister who occupies the high ollice

64

Third hsLj.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OF THE

Conference.
(Mr. Deakin.)

of Minister of State for the Colonies we may obtain whetlier in one Chamber
or the other, snch a statesman, but even he, the longer his stay in the
oiEce may be, is more and more likely to be impregnated with the same methods
and the same associations. I do not wish to labour the point or unduly
elaborate it, but ventured to put it yesterday that it would be no loss to the
Colonial Office in one sense to part with the self-governing communities
whose major communications of a constitutional and important character are
few, and the great bulk of wdiose coi'respondence and despatches relate to
matters of administration that need never come xmder the purview of the
Minister himself. In their great issiies they do feel that the efhciency of the
Governments they are called upon to undertake woidd be assisted hj a more
sympathetic understanding both of the difficidties by which they are con-
fronted, and the means Avhich they must adopt in order to cope with them,
I believe it would be of advantage to us, and no derogation from an office of
this magnitude if it were to part wdth i;s. This it can afford to do and
yet retain a great part of the earth's sm'face and a great portion of its popula-
tion imder its control. Any proposal, therefore, which keeps this secretariat
associated with the Colonial Office will always be hable at all events to the
imputation, and will probably continue to furnish some evidence fi'om time to
time of the fact that there are grounds for that imputation, that it will not
approach us as we would approach each other in matters of that kind. If
Canada and Australia, or Australia and South Africa were exchanging
commmiications their attitude would be different from that often adopted by
this Office, but ours would be the same attitude in each case, because no
matter how far apart we are, or our objects or circumstances, our ends are
always sought subject to the same considerations and in much the same
manner. I do not wish to labour this, but assert that if you wish to give the
greatest confidence to this new secretariat, if you really wish to give it a free
hand and an opportunity of justifjdng itself — if you wish to dissociate it
from the prejudice or prepossession, which now exists, if you wish to see it
established in complete consonance with the principle laid down of govern-
ments consulting goA'ernments, I think it woidd be a distinct advantage to
have it from the outset severed fi'om this Department or any other department
of the kind. Only in its own atmosphere and in suitable surroimdings, and
if possible under the Prime Minister of Great Britain,
impoi-tant functions it will be called iipon to discharge.

detaining the Conference so long.

can it fulfil the
I ask pardon for

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I certainly prefer this draft to any other that
has yet been offered to the Conference, but I must say I would not like to
express a definite opinion at this moment. It was imderstood yesterday when
this draft was proposed that we should receive it last night, but I did not
receive it imtil 10 o'clock this morning, and did not read it until I came to
this Office.

CHAIRMAN : It was sent to you yesterday at 3 o'clock.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Possibly, but I did not get it until this
morning. •

CHAIRMAN : I am in the hands of the Conference, if they wish to
consider it furtlicr.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I would like to say, Lord Elgin, that while
I would not for a moment presume to piit my oar in and say how it

65

should bo arranged for internally in the Colonial Otltce, there should
certainly be a division of administration. If the self-governing Colonies
were separated from the Crown Colonies to a very large extent the desires
of the country I represent would be met. The matter is one for internal
reform or alteration of the methods carried out in the home Office. As
I said, I will not presume to suggest how tliat should be done. I think
the whole point might be met in this way. I recognise that the Colonial
Office in connection with the work of this important Colonial Conference,
would require to have a veiy great deal of control between the meetings
of tlie Conferences. I would suggest, however, in order to try and arrive
at the point Mr. Deakin is alluding to, that a portion of this motion be
altered. Instead of tying it down by resolution as to under whose direction
it shoidd he, strike out the words " under the direction of the Secretary
of State for the Colonies," and let it stand : " by means of a permanent
" secretarial staff charged with the duty of obtaining information for the
" use of the Conference." Then I take it that after the conclusion of this
Conference the Colonial Office might see its way to separate the adminis-
tration of the Crown Colonies and the self-governing Colonies ; and Avhoever
is charged with the duty of the secretarial work would be under the control
of a responsible Minister, say the Secretary of State for the Colonies. For
my part I think the point referred to by Mr. Deakin would in this way be
met. Tiiere is a natural desire on the part of the Governments of the
self-governing Colonies to have what one may term, a more distinct recog-
nition of what we are trying to carry on in our respective spheres. To a
very large extent what I want woidd be met if we were to get out of the
position of the self-governing countries of being regarded as on a par with
the Crown Colonies. I am not saying a word in derogation of the great
Crown Colonies —very far from it ; they may become as great or greater
than the countries we are referring to at the moment. It has application to
self-governing Colonies generally. I want to impress upon the mendjers
of the Conference that I feel this would be an improvement upon the
present system. We might perhaps arrive at a decision on this important
matter, so that we might go on to some of the other practical matters we
have still to discuss. I merely offer that suggestion with a view to leaving
the method of appointing a permanent secretary open, and the matter
w^ould then l)e under the control of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to
do what he thought proper after this Conference adjourns.

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

l'"lTi:uE

CoSSTITlTION
OK THE

Conference.

(Sir Joseph
Wiird.)

Sir WILI'RID
improves it?

LAURIER: May I ask you to suggest how that

Sir JOSEPH WARP : I do not suggest that it improves it. I want to
leave it open.

Mr. DEAKIN': At all events, if you take out the words "under the
" direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies," you postpone the
question for the time being.

Sir JOSEPH WART) : It would be then " by means of a permanent
" secretarial staff charged with the duty of obtaining information for the use
" of the Conference " V

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes.

A' 48(;i)S.

66

Third Day. Sir JOSEPH WARD : What I say is, supposing the Secretary of State

]8 April 1907. for the Colonies (I am speaking in quite an impersonal sense) and the Prime

Minister of England after Ave adjourn decide amongst themselves who was to

Future j^g ^j^g Secretary, who was to compose the secretarial staff, what office he is
o*F 'the' "'^ ^° '-'® "^' *^'^* ^^ ''' "liitter for the control of the Imperial Government. I leave
CoNFEKENCE. ^^ ^^ opcu cjuestiou ; I do not say it shoidd be deferred because the
secretarial staff is essential to connect these Conferences after we adjourn ;
but I wish to leave it an open question so that the Prime Minister and the
Secretary' of State for the Colonies may, as they think proper, select the staff
for the purpose of cariying on the business ; in other words, I think it is all
important in a matter of the kind that there should be unanimity upon a
decision of this character and if we could get it at present I think that it is a
desirable thing to do.

Dr. JAMESON : Lord Elgin, I quite agree with what Sir Joseph Ward
has said that this sentence ought to be left out : " under the direction of the
Secretary of State for the Colonies," not with the purpose of leaving it an
open question how the secretariat is to be formed, but with a view to forming
the seeretai'iat on a perfectly different basis. I am in absolute sympathy with
what Mr. Deakin has said on this subject. I think he used the words: "I
" look upon this secretariat as machinery really to make the Conference
" itself more efficient besides the linking up l^etween the two Conferences,"
and Mr. Deakin said he felt that if it was under the Colonial Office, perhaps
they would not get those preparations for the Conferences done in such a
sympathetic manner. I think he meant really in an "informed " rather more
than in a sjTnpathetic manner ; " informed " would be the better word to be
used. In the country we come from, I think my colleagues will bear me out,
that we have iinfortunately heen under the eye of the public for some years
and what we find is — I am not talking now really of Government Departments,
but of the public — that the difference between the opinion of the man who goes
out to a Colony on Colonial matters after he has had the local colour and
lived amongst them, and the opinion — and the acts, for that matter — ■
of the man who has been at home here and never visited the Colonies, is
enonnous ; and, therefore, in the preparation of the material for the discussion
at these Conferences we think we want somebody who is conversant with the
Colony and with the affairs of the Colony, and that is the reason of our original
l^roposal that the secretariat should be composed of people, at all events
approved, if not appointed, by the several Colonies and, of course, by the United
Kingdom. Of course, whoever was appointed by the United Kingdom w^ould
only, as in the Conference itself, take the position of the Chairman, if wanted,
or the local management of it, but what we feel is that that secretarial staff
should consist of people conversant with our affairs, appointed by the Colonies
and paid for by the Colonies themselves so that they feel practically it is their
own official at work at home. So that I would support what Sir Joseph
Ward says, that after the words " secretarial staff charged " the words
" under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies " shoidd be
left out. Then it would read " charged wdth the duty of obtaining information
for the use of the Conference." Then I hope we would go into the constitution
of that secretarial staff' on the lines I have sketched out. ^

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Do I understand you to mean that the
secretarial staff or secretariat shoidd not be under direct ministerial
responsibility here ?

Dr. JAMESON : It should be, as Mr. Deakin suggested, under the
Prime Minister. He, being ex officio the President of the Conference, would

67

be ex officio in charge of it also, as representing the Conference. That would Tbinl Day.
be my view. ii April 1907.

Sir WTT.FRTD T.ATTRTER : That does not answer my (|ticstion. Do T (;„j^stitutioh
understand that this body should not l)e under direct ministerial responsibility ? qk the

In this draft resolution it is proposed that tMs staff should be under the direct CusFKusnicE.

fljinisterial, responsibility of the Secretary of State for tl>e Colonies. (Dr. jBmesop.)

Dr. JA;MES0N : It certainly should be under the direct responsibility of
the Conference.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I differ in tntn from you. I think any
staff of that kind must be under the direct responsibility of a, Minister. This
is a conference between govenmients and governments, and here, if you have
a body which is under the responsibility of no one, neither the British
Government nor the other governments interested, the Colonial Goveroments,
you create a state within a state.

Dr. JAMESON : I really must say I do not follow you. It is certainly
under the responsibility of all the Prime Ministers of the Empire.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : How wiU they control it when you are in
South Afi'ica, and I am in Canada ?

Dr. JAMESON : That has to be gone into ; but, as a matter of fact, ()u
the spot here it would be controlled by the Prime Minister here as representing
all the Prime Ministers of the Empire. As to details, all the Prime Ministers
of the Empire would be in commxmication.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So long as we are in England it is all right,
but if you have a secretarial staff which remains here when yoti, I, and
everybody else goes back to his own country, who is to control anil direct that
body in the meantime ?

Dr. JAMESON: For the third time I answer, the Prime Minister of
England.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : If j^ou say it is to be under the direct control
of the Prime Minister here, I can understand it. Then it is under the direct
responsiblity of the Prime Minister of England, who is to direct it.

Dr. JAMESON : I say he is to direct it.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is a matter for debate.

Dr. JAMESON : The other point you asked me about was whether it
shoidd bounder, or away from, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, but
I say "no," not under the Secretary of State, but the Prime :Mmister of
Engla^d as representing all the Prime Ministers.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I understood from the moment it was placed
before us by the despatch of ]Mr. Lyttelton, that the staff was to be an
independent body here, and under nobody's contro^, to represent nonunally
the Colonial Governments, but practicaUy to be so far a^yay from them as to
be virtually independent of that control. Lord Elgin proposes that it should

E 2

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

(Sir Wilfred
Laurier.)

68

be under direct Ministerial responsibility of tbe Secretary of State for the
Colonies. That is a very intelligible position. If you say under the direct
responsibility of the Prime Minister, that is equally intelligible.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: .May I say that it seems both
Dr. Jameson and Sir Wilfrid Laurier are agreed on the point that any
secretariat established in this cotmtry between Conference and Conference
should be under the authority of a responsible Minister of the British
Government.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is my view.

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, the Prime Minister.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : The only question for the moment in
doubt is whether it should be the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State
for the Colonies.

Dr. JAMESON : May I add, again, in connection with the secretariat,
that it is the servant of this Conference, and should be under the control of
the Prime Minister in his capacity as President of the Conference.

CHAIRMAN : I have consulted the Prime Minister, and the Prime
Minister authorises me to say he does not see his way to agree to that
arrangement.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : From the point of view of the inner
working of the office, there would be an ahnost insuperable difficulty in the
classification of the different States and Dependencies of the Empire exclu-
sively according to status. There must be a geographical classification as
well, and it would involve a great duplication of machinery if separate
machinery altogether Avere to be set up in the desire to place the secretariat
entirelv under the control of the Prime Minister.

Mr. DEAKIN : Diiplication of interests I can quite understand. Mr.
Churchill's point is incontestable on that, since, supposing Australia is
communicating, no doubt questions affecting the Pacific would be raised,
l^erhaps touching Fiji, which is a Crown Colony. In the same way when
Sir AVilfi'id Laurier's Government is concerned, there Avould be many problems
relating to the AV'est Indies, which he would probably consider the interests
of Canada required should be veiy carefuUy considered. But the interests
overlapping in that way would not, I think, really complicate or duplicate the
work to any extent worth speaking of, because whatever questions are put
foiTvard would be as to the effect upon the self-governing Colonies of action
which is taken in their neighbourhood, whether in regard to Crown Colonies
or in regard to coimtries which are not CroAvn Colonies — perhaps coimtries
under foreign flags, or under no flag. I do not see that there would be any
duplication of work, though I fully admit the duplication of interests.

R. MOOR:

I have nothing to

saj"-, except that I take it that the

Mr. F.
concluding portion of this paragraph is sufficiently wide to cover all
information that may be oC interest to all the various Colonies concerned, and
that this information will be continuously supplied to these different countries
in order that interests may be constantly kept alive in the various industries,
that we are all concerned in. For instance, it would cover aU matters
concerning commerce, shipping, and the various other large concerns that

09

obtain throughout the Empire. If there is acoutinuous stream of iiifomiation Third Day.

flowing from this centre to these different Colonies, and always available not 1« April 1907.

only l)y the Governments of these dilYerent Colonies, hut by their Parliaments, ,

I can see considerable use for such a department as we are here trying to /-..j,^ ^ -^'"^

establish. Also I would like to know whether il would be possible under "\^^. t.,',^.'

this clause for any Colony having a particular interest at stake, and wishing C'csFKUExrE.

to bring it prominently to the notice of the Colonial Governments and the (il,. V. K. Moor.)
Home Government, to he directly represented on its staff by any nominee for
the purpose of hiying their case Ixd'ore the secretariat.

General BtyriLV: 1 have no j)arlicuiar ()i)jection to the article as it
stands. 1 think the link between the Conference and our Agents-General
should be strengthened and drawn closer, because these Agents-General really
represent \is here. They are sent over from our Colonies, and, in my opinion,
it wonld seem that they are somewhat left out in the cohl according to the
wording of this resolution. It occurred to nie whether it was not advisable to
insert after the words " Secretary of State for the Colonies " the following :
"acting in consultation with the Agents-general representing the Colonial
" Goveriunents."

CHAIRMAN : There are two sides to this question, I think ; one the
general proposition, and the other the actual method of working it out.
With regard to the general proposition, my proposal takes a step in advance
of what has hitherto prevailed, in providing a link between Conference and
Conference. We accept that i^roposition which has been put forward with
some persistence, if I may use the word, and has been strongly advocated,
more strongly advocated, in some quarters than in others. We accept the
principle, and must accept the principle, as I said in my speech yesterday,
under the condition of Ministerial responsibility, on which Sir Wilfrid
Lauricr has insisted. Therefore it comes to this, that following his
observations, in which I entirely agree, that .Ministerial responsil)ility must
be vested in the Imperial Government, because the representatives of the
Colonial Governments cannot be in this place. Therefore it is for His
Majesty's Government to determine how they can implement the desire of
the Conference, and secure the necessary ministerial rcsponsil)ility on which
the institution of this link depends. I think that there will really be no
difference of oj)inion on that statement of the case.

Now I put it to the Conference as almost a truism that each govern-
ment must really be left to decide in what way it is most con\'enient
for it to divide the business which is to be put iq>on it. It is dillicult enough
in this country, and I daresay you find it difficult enough in your t)wn
countries, to divide the business of the Government between the dilTeri'ut
ministers ; to provide for the necessaiy and not unnecessary nundjer of
members composing the Cabinet, and various things of that kind. Therefore
I venture to put it very respectfully to this Conference that they shoidd not
enter into the quesl;ion of how in the opinion of His Majesty's GovernnuMit
the ministerial responsibility is to be put into operation. That is a matter
which His Majesty's Govermnent must determine. If you accept our
j)roposition that we should with ministerial responsibility provide the link
which you desire, and which we think you rcasi)nal)ly d(>sire, between Con-
ference and Conference, you should allow us a fr(;e hand in other respects.
Still, in consequence of wdiat was said at yesterday's meeting, 1 did, as 1 say,
inform the Prime ^Minister of the expression of views which Mr. Deakin and
others made, and I am to say for him that he does not see how the Prime
Minister of this country could undertake the direction of the secretariat which
it is proposed to set up. On the other hand, the proposition which I put
forward I put forward on my own responsibility as Secretary of State
48(i(;8. E :?

Tliird Diiy.
18 April 1907.

FUTUKE

Constitution

OF THE

Conference.
(Chairman.)

70

for the Colonies, but with the assent of my colleagues, and 1 hope there-
fore that the Conference will give it at least as faA^ourable consideration
as possible. I do not propose nothing. I propose to do as much as
I possibly can to meet the desire. It is quite true that this Office has grown
considerably, and that the section of it which deals with responsible govern-
ments has not as yet been so clearly differentiated and defined as it may quite
naturally seem reasonable now that it should be, but which everybody will
understand was not at least as necessary in days gone by. I take considerable
responsibility upon myself, but I am prepared to say that we will endeavour,
I think we shall succeed, to so separate the departments of this Office that
you will have in the office in the form which we shall present it to you, a
distinct division dealing with the affairs of the responsibly governed Colonies.
I will not say it will be exactly apart, Ijecause there is, and miist be, at the
head, at any rate, a connecting link l)etween the several parts of any office,
but there will be one division which you will feel will be concerned with the
business of all the self-governing Colonies, and not directly with that of the
Crown Colonies. That is what I aim at. Whetlier I can carry it out to-day
or to-morrow, or at what particular time, I cannot promise. But if 1 can get
any suggestions from any of the Prime Ministers here, with regard to any
particidar arrangements whicli could he made still further to meet their
convenience we shall endeavour to carry them out.

I should just like — and I hope in the most friendly manner possil^le —
to a little demur to the " attitude " which I think Avas the word which
Mr. Deakin attributes to us in this Office. I do not think if we were happy
enough to have his assistance in the Office that he would find it really existed.

Mr. DEAKIN : I should become official too.

CHAIRMAN : At any rate tliat shows tliat the attitude has some
attraction, but I do hope that he wiU believe that we have no wish to be
dictatorial or to be uncivil or anything of that sort in the correspondence we
carry on with the Colonies.

Mr. DEAKIN : Too civil sometimes.

CHAIRMAN : 1 would just point this out. Mr. Deakin said that there was
a difference in the attitude of Canada, if he corresponded with Canada, to the
attitude if he corresponded with us here. As long as we are all members of
the Empire, I suppose the Lnperial Government may on certain occasions
have to use different expi'essions from others, but I assure Mr.. Deakin that
we do not wish to use them in any way to infi'inge the principle wliich the
Prime Minister laid doAvn, that is to say, the freedom and independence of the
different governments which are parts of the Empire.

I hope what 1 have said meets to a large extent what Sir Joseph Ward
wishes. I should prefer not to omit the words from the resolution " under the
direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies " because it seems to me
we ought to be fair and square in these matters. I am not in a position,
speaking on behalf of His Alajesty's (_}overnnient, to offer more to this Con-
ference than I have offered. I venture to say, as I did at the beginning,
that I am ottering a great advance on former practice, and I am quite
aware that 1 am facing some difficulties in tlie matter, but I am prepared to
go as far as 1 have indicated.

With regard to what General Botha said, I should imagine that one of
the residts of the new arrangement that 1 have under conteinplation would be
to strengthen the getting of information, and the conununication of
information through the Agents-General or any other representatives of the
Colonies. I do not think, just because there is the difficulty with regard

Future

CoNSTITITIOK

iiF THE

71

to ministerial responsil)ility, that we can incorporato them (the Agents- T'''''"' ^"7-
General) in the system in the sense of l)ringiug them within the secretariat, •« April 1907
but that we wish to improve in every way our means of conunuuication with
them anil through them I tliiuk may stand without saying.

With regard to ^Ir. Moor's observations, I am not quite sure if I correctly „

followed them. I thiuk he asked for information on practically all subjects Confekknte,
such as commerce and the like. What this resolution immediately Ijciore us (Clminimu.)
deals with, are the snl)jects which have been or are to be discussed at a
Conference, and the secretariat is to deal with the Conference. Xo douht in
the organisation of the ollice, if it is re-organised in the manner I have
indicated, we shall be only too glad to do all that is in our power to further
the communication of information on all subjects through that part of the
Office to the self-governing Colonies, whether it ilrals with matters connected
with the Conference itself or beyond it.

Those are my views as far as I can form tliem un the spur of the moment
on the opinions expressed. I do not know whether Sir Wilfrid Laurier
would still wish to postpone a decision on this question, or whether we may
decide it now.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am quite satisfied upon the ])rinciple
conceded, that what is done is to lie done on direct responsihility. That is the
only subject, as originally proposed, to which 1 demurred, because it seemed
to be the creation of an independent body. The moment it is recognised
here that it is to be under direct responsi])ility, I am satisfied. I am quite
prepared to accept the new principle, but 1 would not like to commit myself
immediately to the drafting of the resolution, which perhaps may be
improved. Before we go any further, I would like to call Mr. Deakin's
attention to that part which is taken from the ilraft sent by .Vustralia,
"Attending to its resolutions." \Vill Mr. Deakin kindly explain what he
means by that ?

Mr. DEAKIN : May I, without reiteration, say something wliich appears
to be necessary in the way of self-justiiication before answering Sir Wilfrid
Laurier's question. It must be due to my clumsy method of handling my
argiunent, but I appear to have conveyed my meaning so unfortunately as
to suggest to you, my lord, that I have been rudely reflecting upon this
great departnxeut. Of course, I do not speak without laremeditation, but
without a studied clioice of epithets. I should have preferred to handle this
subject without " brushing the dust off a butterfly's wings," if I could have
accomplished my object. I had to convey our sense of dissatisfaction, but
have failed, apparently, to explain its cause. May I sa\- that the dictatorial
attitude, which may be usually properly defended, so far as it exists, does
not, so far as my knowledge goes, exist at all to any notable extent.
That is not our complaint. Our complaint is not that we are treated too
peremptorily, but that representations of ours are met neither with an under-
stantlingof the real causes from which they spring or of our precise intention.
Our responsible and representative governments are dealt witli as you deal
with a well-meaning Oovernor or well-intentioned nominee council. Sutlicient
knowledge of our circumstances on many questions would show thai we
were expressing the sentiments of the great body of our people who have
considered some question or questions which directly and materially alTect
them, and regarding which they have formed strong and clear conclusions.
Our representations are met, as you are quite entitled to meet them if you
please, by an absolute refusal in some cases, or by a (]ualitied refusal in other
cases. With that we have not so much dispute as Avith the fact that we seem
to be refused, not merely upon inadequate, but upon inapprtipriate or unreal
grounds. The particular representations we make are not interpreted as they

E 4

79

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution'

OF THE

Conference.
(Mr. Deakin.)

Ti'Oiild be if they had been expressed by representative members of the House
of Conunons, who, speaking on behalf of their fellow-members, give utterance
to what they believe to be the wishes of their electorate. It is that kind of
treatment we mean. I hope I am not to be tempted to justify myself, or to
attemj)t to justify mj'self, by giving illustrations of this kind of treatment.
There may be an appropriate time for them, but I doubt if it is just now.
The complaint we have to make is of an attitude of mind. A certain
impenetrability ; a certain remoteness, perhaps geographically justified ; a
certain weariness of people much pressed with affairs, aud greatty ovei'-
burdeued, whose natural desire is to saj' " Kindly postpone this ; do not press
" that, do not troul)le us ; what does it matter ? we have enough to do
" already ; you are a self-governing conununity, why not manage to carry
" on without worrying us ?"

Hoping I have removed any wrong impression, and if 1 have removed
misapprehension, may I say that your reply, Lord Elgin, auiounts to a non
possiimus — not that " We will not " but " We cannot." The Prime Minister
cannot see his way to accept the responsibihties which we were daring-
enough to suggest for him, and you cannot consider it fm-ther. In this case
too I, for one, do not — aud doubt if my friends will — question your right
to malve that reply. But, there again, I qiiestion the applicabilitj' of the
argument which you urge. You say no government is to be dictated to
as to how it shall do its business. Quite true. It must allot that business as
it pleases. Quite true. It will direct it as it pleases. Quite true. No one
suggested anything else ; but -what we did suggest was that oiir business,
so far as it can be distinguished fi'om yours, shoidd be recognised as our
business even to the extent of being paid for by us and discharged by a stafE
Avhich should, through your Prime Minister, be responsible to our Prime
]).Iinisters, and to us. We proposed to you a new thing — not any interference
with your present departments. We have no right to interfere, as you properly
said, with your department, or its divisions, or its methods. I quite agree.
What we have suggested is a new department altogether, with your Prime
Minister at its head, but a responsibility somewhat ilifferent in its origin, as
he would be acting not merely as Prime Minister of (a-eat Britain, but also
acting for all the other Prime Ministers of the Empire. We are prepared
to contribute to the cost of such a department and to pay for the officers that
they employ in order to have our business done. Therefore, though you
would be perfectly right iii. so replying to any one who did claim to interfere
with your business, surely Ave were not trespassing Avhen we suggested
something which is our business as well as yours, and which is to be at our
joint cost aud responsibility ; aud I think on that we were quite entitled to
be heard.

CHAIRMAN : Certainly, and I have heard you.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, but while not disputing your right to re])ly, I do not
think it applies, because our proposition was not to trench xipon your depart-
ment or present office, but that we should have a voice in and share the
cost of a new department, Avhich wo^dd be in a sense a joint department,
though under the ministerial direction of the Prime ]\rinister of England.
I hope I have removed any misapprehension on that point. ,•

CHAIP^IAN : I do not quite accept the whole of your argument.

i\Ir. DI'JAKIN : You will also agree that we liaA-o not to accept the
applicability of your reply, which, though reasonable enough in its terms, is
inaii]3]icable, liecause we are not making, and have not made, any such
request as that wliich you have felt laound to decline as if it had been made.

73

Xow, tho suggestion made l\v General Botha appeared to me to be Third Day.
bound up with th(> proposal which some of us have been recommending. 18 April 11)07.
Our idea was that the Prime Ministers at the head of the various Govern- - —

uients would act tliruugh tlicir Agents-General in making such representa- (_'„n8titl"ti«ix
tions as they cliose through such a secretariat. If it had been a joint ok tke

department, and a joint secretariat, such as tliat 1 have been descriliing, Conkhrkxce.
to w'hich wc all conlributed, and in regard to which we had some voice as (Mr. Dcakin.)
to the selection of olliccrs, the Agents-General would have had the utmost
freedom, the fullest riglit and title to enter the ollice to connnunicate with
it and use it when representing their Prime ^linisters. Both they and it
wouhl be agencies of their Governments. For that reason I cordially
support the practical suggestion made l)y General iJotha, which 1 have no
doubt will be given effect to whatever the decision as to the secretariat
may be, though it woidd have been expresslj^ provided for if our idea
had been accepted. Even when this proposed secretariat, instead of being a
joint body, is to be part of your Colonial < )frice xuider your direct control,
there will he an open connnunicatiou from the various Governments through
their Agents-General.

CHAIRMAN : T said so.

Mr. DEAKIX : Exactly. Our suggestion was based on the assumption
tliat it would be so. In the same Avay, the question put by the Premier of
Xatal is also answered. Our proposition implies the widest and completest
freedom on the part of any Prime Minister to propose matters for investiga-
lion and preparation by the secretariat. On that, also, I have no doubt he
will receive a satisfactory assurance from his Lordship. In addition, it is
])lain that the answer to his question was also supplied by the proposition
wo have been submitting, whicii would have given every right and title
to obtain every kind of information. I may be pardoned, perhaps, for
making tliese connnents before replying to the enquirj' put by our senior
member. Sir Wilfrid Laurier.

I have taken out a list of the resolutions passed at previous Conferences,
some of which appear to have been pursued a short way, and one or two of
which I think have been scarcely pursued at all. If such a secretariat as
we proposed had been in existence, when any resolution was arrive(l at by
any Conference in relation to a particular suljject, the duty of that
secretariat would have been to l.)ring that matter to the notice of all th(>
(l(>partments concerned— the Board of Trade, the Admiralty, or whatev(>r
blanches of the British Government might l)e affected— and also to connnuni-
cate with the several Colonial Governments affected, either to ask them^ for
information or to present them with the information it had collected. The
duty of the secretariat would be to take care that a resolution should not
remain a dead letter, but should l)e followetl up to its fullest extent. Any
Prime Minister who was not satislied with what was ilone would connnuni-
cate, eitluM- with the Prime .Minister who started it, or those who agreed with
it, and would again apply to the secretariat contending that certain inronna-
tion supplied was defective, or that certain action indicated or requested had
not l)cen followed. He would say that his Government would take action
or declined to take it, as the case might be, and he would ask to l)e.
informed if other Governments had acted upon it, or not. The secretariat
ought to do whatever is necessary to keep the resolutions alive initil they
were linally disposed of to the satisfaction of all Governments concerned.

Sir AVIT.FRID LAURIER : I am quite satisfied with that reply as to the
meaning of the words I asked about.

-'o

74

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

Future

CONSTITDTIdN

OF THE
COKFEREXCE.

]\Ir. WINSTON CHURCHILL: On the point of payment for the
secretariat, I imderstood that there was a general agreement upon the
assertion of the paramount . responsibility of some minister of the British
Government with regard to the control of snch secretariat. I cannot help
feeling that that would be very much impaired if it was a secretariat supplied
and financed from a joint fund. I am quite sure it would undoubtedly weaken
the control and authority of the minister presiding over the department if
that department was suppHed and financed from a fund collected from a great
many different contributory bodies.

Mr. DEAKIN :• That is quite a fair criticism from my point of view,
except that it must be rememl^ered that the functions of this particular
Department are strictly regulated. It is a small secretariat \vhich is to collect,
receive, and distrilaute information, answer inqiiiries, and follow them out.
Therefore, the only ministerial control reqiured is office management, seeing
that the officers are doing their work, and for that the head of the Department
would l3e responsilile. Our secretariat would have had no executive or any
other kind of power. It would have been a collecting, collating, analysing,
tabulating, and distributing medium.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : But you would give the head of the
Department administering it power, for instance, to dismiss a member of the
secretarial staff with whom he was dissatisfied ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : But if you took a different view with
regard to the conduct of that member ?

Mr. DEAKIN : He would have the right of appeal.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: But the Colonial Govermnent which
took a particular interest in that member, or felt that he had a special reason
or claim to speak on their behalf, might take a strongly different view from
the Home Govermnent in regard to the member's position, and the fact that
they contributed actually a portion of the fimd out of which he was paid
might lead them to assert in a very definite form that division of authority
which you all seem anxious to avoid.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do
head for office purposes.

not think that would occur. There must be one

Dr. JxVMESON : As we said before, the Prime Minister in charge of the
secretariat would represent all the other Prime ilinisters. It is very natural,
if we pay towards the upkeep of the secretariat, to choose some one, in the
absence of the others, to take charge. That is a different position from that
of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who, of course, is entirely concerned
with the Imperial Govermnent. Mj'- own view was not so much as to the
question of which department of the Government it should be under, but I
was anxious as to the knowledge of the people who fonn the secretariat.
My great point is, that it should be composed of people well informed in
Colonial affairs, and I hope Lord Elgin Avill take that into accouot when he is
forjuing the secretariat, and then I shall be quite satisfied.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I would
stand from the observations you have
imdertake this duty.

like to say, my Lord, that I under-
made, that the Prime Minister cannot

GHAIRIMAN : I do not think he can.

C'iNKEUEXCE.

75

Sir .lOSEPfl WARD: I imdcistaiid ihat, and also agree that it must Ti,ird Day
he under direct ministerial eoutrol. We all recognise that should be the case. ,j< ^ j, y^^-

Upon the point referred to I)}- Dr. Jameson, may I suggest that I think -

It would be very vahia])le to the t'olonies and also to the Colonial Futuee

Oliice, il' when the secretarial staff is formed, you recognised the importance Constitdtion
of allowing someone connected with that staff to spend some time out ,, ^*' ''"''

in our (Jolonies, if <jnly for the purpose of obtaining information, upon ' ""'"

the methods of carrying on your Inisiness with us, as, on the spot, a
capable officer would get a useful insight into the work and system of
administration of our ( ioveniments. That is a very imixjrtant matter, and
if the suggestion were carried out it would adtl invaluably to the working
of the C'olonial Office at home in connection with the Colonies. Speaking
for my own country I think it would be a matter of very great importance
if such a tiling could he done. In view of the very important statement
made by Lord Elgin as to division of the self-governing and Crown Colonies,
1 have only to say that I very heartily congratulate him and the Conference
upon it. We have his assvirance that he proposes to divide the Administration
of the Colonial Office in such a way as he may think best in his own
De])artment, so that the self-governing Colonies will be treated separately
from the Crown Colonies, and fi-om my point of view 1 regard that txs V(^ry
important. I am veiy glad indeed to find that Lord Elgin concurs in
Avhat I have previously said. In our countries, we consider it of the first
importance in the achninistration of our affairs that from time to time
must come to the Colonial Office. I suggest that the Prime Minister and
Secretary of State for the (^olonies should confer as to what should ])e
done in regard to the secretarial staff. I do not seem to be quite in accord
Av'ith some of my colleagues upon that point, but I should be quite content
with the already important steps we have achievetl towards the continuitv
of the Conference and the creation of a link to be kept up during the period
of four years between meetings, and i think it would be a very great pity
that any difference of opinion should prevent us coming to a unanimous
conclusion on the matter. Umler the circumstances, I shall support the
pi"oposal as it is, and shall look forward to it working out with satisfaction
to all concerned.

I am very glad to know that the important men who carry on the
representation of our countries here — our High Commissioners and Agents-
Ceneral — will l)e recognised as being a medium, at all events, through which
the Colonies may frcnn time to time niake representatit)ns that will be heard,
as they always have been so far as my experience has gone, at the office of
the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in connection with this Imperial
Conference on matters we desire to bring forward.

CHAIRMAN : One of tlie first meetings i had in ihis room was with the
Agents-General of all the t'olonies, anil I specially asked, if they had any
business at any time to bring forwarti, if they would be so good as to let mo
kncv.'.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think, Sir, they have the most cordial feeling
towards you, so far as 1 know.

Mr. DEAKIX : Do you propose to omit these words " umler the direction

of the Secretary of State for the Colonies " ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : No, I propose to leave them in.

0

CHAIRMAN : It is not from any wish to aggravate my office or positicni,
but it seems to me the resolution defines what we are going to do, and it puts

re

Tliiid Day.
18 April 1907.

FUTIKE

CONSTITUTIOX

OF THE

Conference.
(Cliairnian.)

the resjiousibility definitely on my shoulders to
Conference.

(;arry ont the wishes of the

Dr. JAMESON : As I was one of those \Yho objected to it at first, I
should like to say that as I want something definite I quite accept the position
as it has been explained, and I suggest that the words remain in, though I
must say, that I think we have been quite right in giving our opinions. I
now suggest that we pass it as it stands.

Mr. DEAKIN : Shall ^\'e know no more with regard to the policy you
propose to pursue, than the general statement you have made as to some kind
of separation in the Colonial Office ? In this connection too there is the
question of the reorganisation of the Colonial Office.

CHAIRMAN
we pass this.

We will take that separately immediately afterwards, if

Mr. DEAKIN : Sir Joseph Ward has also called attention to it.

CHAIRMAN : What we propose to take is first this matter, and then the
question as to the Imperial Defence Committee, if there is time.

Mr. DEAKIN : So great is our need of securing the local knowledge
of your officers that T have been contemplating the abduction of l 'r Francis
Hopwood ever since I have been here, with the object of turnin/ " ''m into
a citizen of the Commonwealth for a few months so that he may] -stand

rmu

our difliculties for the future.

Sir FRANCIS HOPWOOD
invitation.

I shall be very glad to

ftpei

fent ^t
Id the
(h he

your

Mr. DEAKIN : If your Ministerial Chief endorses that we will consider
it as giA'en and accepted on the spot, and for any time.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I hope Sir Francis Hopwood will understand that
the same applies to New Zealand.

Mr. DEAKIN : I trust you will not think me unduly insistent, but must
say with regard to the establishment of a secretariat that above all, if it is
to be a part of the Colonial OlHce, and yet have a distinct character, it will
require distinct and separate knowledge which can only be gained by living
in the country, and being associated with it. Our own experience when we
come here is quite sufficient to teach us how very dilTerent familiar names
and familiar things are in this country when compared with our own. A
similar experience, I am sure, would await any member of your staff. Even
if he were the alilest, the most gifted, and best-read person in the»country,
he would iind that your names, phrases, and forms have their distinct
development amongst us. Before passing from this point let nie venture
to remind you that no secretariat in the Colonial Office will give us that
satisfaction which I am sure you desire, unless some of its important officers
are in touch with the self-governing Colonies with which they have to
deal ; and that this touch can only be obtained by personal acquaintance
with the Colonies.

77

CITAIRALVN : Of course if it means a permanent arrangement for certain
members of the staff of the Colonial Ollice Ijuing in the Colonics, it will mean
an increase of the staff for which I should have to apply to my friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Mr. DEAKIN : That might ])e avoided by the proposal to send you one
or two of our leading men for the time lieing to be employed by you iu order
to understand the mysteries of this department.

Third Day
18 April 1907.

FfTUKE
CONSTITITION

or THE
CONFEKENCE.

CHAIRMAN : That is a thing which would have to be threshed out in
detail, and I should not like to express an opinion upon it just now.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : This secretariat means the creation of a
new^ department Avhose l)usiness it would be to deal with the self-goveniing
Colonies or Dependencies of the Crown, or, as they are termed " Dominions
beyond the sea," and I think the suggestion which has been made that the
secretary or one of the staff should visit the different parts of those Dominions
is an excellent one.

CHAIRILVN : We have tried it, but there is one unfortimate result, and
that is we lose our best men because you retain them ; I think, however, this
point is one which we coidd scarcely discuss very usefully further than
this. We notice your wish and w'ill consider it.

Mr. DEAKIN : We have iiuished our consideration of this resolution
down to the w'ord " affairs."

CHAIRMAN : I understand it is adopted down to the word " affairs."
The other paragraph is : "That upon matters of importance requiring con-
" sultation in common either in this country or in the Colonies between two
" or more of the governments which cannot conveniently be postponed until
" the next Conference or Avhich involve subjects of a minor character, sub-
" sidiary Conferences should be held between representatives of the Colonies
" and of the Mother Countrj^ especially chosen for the purpose." I do not
know that I need not amplify that. It seems to me to speak for itself.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So far as I am concerned I think this is
perfect, but it is a mere matter of course, and I do not see why you shoiUd
put it in. It is a matter which would always be done as a matter of course,
and I do not see any advantage in putting it here.

CHAIRMAN : It is only put in in order to cany out tlie principle of
working it out as much as possible. The secretary suggests that after the
word " character " wo might put in " or such as require detailed considera-
tion." For instance, the Shipping Conference we could scarcely have carried
on at this Conference.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is not a matter of a minor character.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It is all quite proper, as I say, but I do not
see the necessity of putting it in this form here, because it seems to me to be
over-burdening a veiy good resolution.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL: The resolution really constitutes one of
the instruments of Imperial organisation, and from a public point of view it

TUiid Daj.
IS April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OP THE

Conference.

(Mr. Winstou
Churchill.)

78

is calculated to interest the piiblic, as showing how far the work has pro-
ceeded ; I think it worth considering whether it oiight not to be as complete
a statement of the stage at which that organisation has arrived as possible.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not object, but it seems to me putting
on paper what can be done without it.

Mr. DEAKIN : The one criticism I have to offer upon it is that if this
phrase were construed narrowly the reference to Colonies might be limited to
Colonies referred to above. Now we all hope to see the union of South African
States to which several of the representatives here have more than once
alluded. Canada, Australia, and South Africa will then be three Doixdnions or
Commonwealths which will include in themselves, with limited powers, states
or provinces which- occasionally might be entitled to share in some of these
subsidiary Conferences, which, indeed, might be confined to them if the
matters dealt with related only to certain special subjects. I do not know
whether the addition of those words would provide for this contingency quite
clearly. While this shows the general scheme of the Conference, it ought not
to exclude from participation in the subsidiary Conference some of the pro-
vinces or states which would not, or could not, be represented in the major
Conferences to which we have been alluding, because they no longer possess
the powers which would authorise them to speak or act upon the questions
under discussion.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : As a matter of drafting as we have now
cut out in the first paragraph the words " affecting the relations of the Mother
Country and His Majesty's Dominions over the Seas," would it not be possible
to use the words " His Majesty's Dominions over the Seas," which have not
been previously used in the resolution, in the place of the word " Colonies "
in the third paragraph ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I do not see the necessity of it. A
" resolution " means that you shall do something which you could not do before.
You can do this already. It is mere surplusage, but I do not object to it,
except on the point that there is no necessity for it. I think Mr. Winston
ChurchiU's suggestion on the point of drafting is excellent.

CHAIRMAN : "In this country or in His Majesty's Dominions over
the seas."

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think with Sir Wilfi'id Laurier, that as a matter
of necessity we could do without it, but, on the other hand, I quite agree with
Mr. Winston Churchill that it would convey a much brighter and stronger
impression on the imaginative observer outside, who is anxious to see that
there is some possibility of dealing with minor matters between the
Colonies.

good.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It can do no harm, and possibly may do

Dr. JAMESON : I siippose the " secretariat " in the previous paragraph
is implied in this paragraph also ?

Mr. DEAKIN: Certainly.

thing.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is understood, and applies to the whole

79

Mr. DEAKIN : We ask that its head shoiild be connected in everything ThinI Day.
with the self-governing Colonies — Conference or no Conference. 18 April 1907.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is uudeistood. ^ ^'-"^''"'^

OF THE

Dr. JAMESON : The " secretariat " refers to the general Conference in Conkeresce.
the paragraph before, and here tlie ^iaragraph goes into minor matters.

CHAIRMAN : Do you mean you would not put it in ?

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, 1 would.

CHAIRMAN : The Secretary suggests that we should simply use the
term " Dominions over the Seas."

Mr. DEAKIN : Are they all dominions ? " Dominion " is a technical
title. In Canada the Avord " Dominion " includes the subordinate Provinces,
just as the word " Commonwealth " with us includes States.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : But in the plural, " Dominions," it is
quite different.

Mr. DEAKIN : I suggest you should bring in the words " local
administrations " to put it beyond doubt, but am not particular about it — you
might have both expressions.

CHAIRMAN : It stands thus : " That upon matters of importance
requiring consultation in common, either in this country."

Mr. DEAKIN : What does " consultation in common " mean ?

CHAIRMAN : That means between this country and others.

Mr. DEAKIN : You cannot have a consultation without at least two
people.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : It means consultation in general.

Mr. DEAKIN : Do the words " in common " convey anything ?

CHAIRMAN : It seems to me they are put in in rather a wrong place,
and it would be better if it read in this way : " That upon matters of
" importance either iu this country or in His Majesty's Dominions beyond
" the Seas between two or more of the Governments which require a cuu-
" sultation in common and which cannot be conveniently postponed until the
" next Conference."

Mr. DEAKIN : That is better.

CHAIILMAN : " Or which involve subjects of a minor character or stich
as require detailed consideration subsidiary Couferences should be held
between representatives of His Majesty's Dominions beyond the Seas and
of the Mother Coimtry, specially chosen for the pui-pose."

'J'hird Day.
18 April 1907.

Future
Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

80

Mr. DEAKIN : You do not want the whole phrase over again. It is
siifficient to say " representatives of the Dominions and the Mother Country."

CHAIRMAN : I was using the former words.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHITX : Representatives of the Dominions
concerned ?

Ivir. DEAKIN : Yes, that is good.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I should like to have an opportunity of
considering the wording when it is copied out.

CHAIRMAN : I have no objection to that so long as it is not published.

Mr. DEAKIN : I think Sir Wilfrid Laurier is entitled to make that
suggestion, but hope it will be finished to-day, and that the 'precis can be
pid^lished wliich the Press did not have yesterday.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : As to this drafting of the resolution, if the
wording is accepted I am quite satisfied, but before giving it to the public I
should like to have further opportunity of considering it. I am not so ready
to give information to the Press as ]\Ir. Deakin seems to be. Fcstina lente is
a good maxim. I would like to defer this. I am not satisfied as to the words
" Dominions beyond the Seas." It is a good expression, but I do not know
that it is correct as it is used here, and I should like to see it in a corrected
draft. I do not laiow that it may not include Trinidad as well as Australia
and Canada. It is not limited, so far as I can see, to the self-governing
Colonies.

CHAIRMAN : That is what is meant in the first place.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Why not use the words " self-governing
Colonies?"

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Or " self-governing Dominions beyond the
Seas." As drafted, it seems to me it would as well apply to Trinidad or
Barbados as to Canada.

CHAIRMAN : I think we will have to introduce the words " self-

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would like to use some expression which
woidd make a differentiation between the seK-governing Colonies and the
otlior Colonies. So far as the Colonies represented here are concerned, I wish
we could drop the word " Colonies " and try to invent something whicih would
strike the imagination more.

i\lr. DEAKIN : Certainly ; if anybody can do that it is you, Sir Wilfrid.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : I unde«-stand Sir Wilfrid Laurier would
like to have a fair copy of the resolution to consider.

81

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes. Wo luive adopted it in subsUuice, and Third buy.
that is great progress ; but before it is sent to the Press I woukl like to have 18 April 1907.
the opportunity of considering it.

Fl TLUE
\2 O \ ST IXI'TI*lV

CILVIR^LVN : Woukl the words " self-governing communities of the ok the

Empire " do ? Conkeuekce.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Perhaps they would ; but I would like to
consider the suggestion. It is worth taking twenty-four hours over it. I
talked it over yesterday with a frientl, and we agreed that we have passed \\\v
state when the term " Colony " couhl be applied to Canada, New Zealand,
and Australia. I would like to have suggested the word "State," but for
the fact that in Australia they call states what we call provinces, and it
might lead to confusion. Perhaps one of us can make a Ijotter suggestion.
I woidd rather sleep uiwn it, unless somebody else has any other suggestion
to make to-day.

Mr. DEAKIN : Would this tenn do : " British Dominions possessing
responsible government " ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would prefer " self-governing dominions
beyond the seas."

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am agreeable to that.

Mr. DEAKIX : We need not add " beyond the seas." " Self-governing
Dominions " will do.

Sir WILFRID' LAURIER: If you designate all those countries that
have been known up to the present time as self-governing Colonies " self-
governing Dominions," we can then give out to the public that henceforth
tliese are " self-governing Dominions," but I would like to have a single apt
W(ird which may 1)(^ taken to mean "self-governing Colonies."

-Mr. DEAKIX : We recognise that the " Dominion " is the senior of the
" Conuiionwealtli " and, therefore, the name "Dominion" has a elaiui.
Again, we recognise that in his Majesty's official title the word " DomiiuDn "
is used where tli(^ word " CommonweaUh " is not.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: "Dominion" is a general tenn which covers

many words which it is not possible to define otherwise.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Can we have the words of the resolution read as

now scuttled ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : As long as it is understood that New Zealand is
a Dominion, I do not object to the word " Dominion." We oui'selves under-
stand New Zealand is a Dominion, but I would like it understood tliat our
countrj^ is covered by that term here.

CHAIRMAN : Shall I read the resolution through ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : For my part I would like to see it before
me. The only reason whj- it is suggested we should finally close the discussiou
to-day is simply in order to give it to the Press.

£ 4866K. F

82

Third Day.
J 8 April 1907.

Foti:re
Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : May we have the last paragraph read again ?

CHAIRMAN : I will read the whole of it from the beginning : " That it

' will be to the advantage of the Empire if Conferences, to be called Imperial

' Conferences, are held every four years, at which questions of common

' interest may be discussed, and considered as between His Majesty's

' Government and Governments of the self-governing Dominions. The

■ Prime Minister of the United Kingdom will be ex officio President, and the

■ Prime Ministers of the seK-governing Colonies ox officio members of the
' Conference. The Secretary of State for the Colonies will be an ex offiicio

member of the Conferences, and will take the chair in the absence of the

' President, and will arrange for such Imperial Conferences after commimi-

' cation with the Prime Ministers of the respective Dominions. That it is

desirable to establish a system by which the several Governments

represented shall be kept informed during the periods between the

Conferences in regard to matters which have been or may be subjects for

discussion by means of a permanent secretarial staff, charged under the

direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies with the dutj' of

obtaining information for the use of the Conference, of attending to its

resolutions, and of conducting correspondence on matters relating to its

affairs. That upon matters of importance, either in this country or in His

i\Iajesty's Dominions beyond the seas which require consultation in common

between two or more of the Governments, or which cannot be conveniently

jiostponed until the next Conference, or which involve sidijects of a minor

character, or such as require detailed consideration, subsidiary Conferences

should be held between the representatives of such Dominions and the

Mother Country specially chosen for the piirpose."

Dr. SMARTT : Surely the word " Dominions " would not refer to the
various Colonies in South Africa. It would not be a dominion unless it were
federated like Canada or Australia ; New Zealand might be called a Dominion,
it lieing two islands i;nder one Govermneut, but j'oii could not call Cape
Colony a dominion.

here.

CHAIRMAN: Yes,-

" self-governing Dominion

is what we call yoii

Dr. SMARTT : Is not the word " Dominions " in the title of the King ?

CHAIRMAN : In the King's title the words " Dominions beyond] the
seas " cover everything, and it was in order to restrict the term to self-
governing parts of the Empire beyond the seas that we put in the words
" self-governing."

'' ■• ■ Mr. DEAKIN : I prefer the words "Dominions concerned " which point
back directly to those engaged in the Conference. The words " sucli
Douiinions " leave it at large.

CHAIRMAN : Personally, I agree with Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and should
like to look through it when it is copied.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think we should consider it. It is too
important a matter to pass over without having a moment of reflection about
it. We know the importance of this document, and I think it is worth while
to be a little careful about its wording.

83

Mr. F. 1\. MOOli: I'er.soually, I ahoiiM like to usn a liaiipicr term as Third r):iy.

leflecting the Coloiiios wo represent in Sdiith Al'riea. Wo have not yet got 1h April 1907.

to that coutlition of things wlien we might he safely designate(i as l)oniinions, ,

and I think, with Sir Wilirid Laurior, it might bo iust as well to think the r^ ^lTlKE

,11 ' o .1 CoSSTlTl TloN

matter over earelully. ,,^, ^„g

CONKEKEXCE.

Mr. DEAKIX: There is no possil)le ol)jeeti()n to that, exee))t the natnral
disappointment of the pnl)lic, whieh, however, might 1)0 mitigated i! the precis
of the discnssion were now presented without giving the resolution arrived
at — just the outliiuM)!' tli(> discussion in a general way. Otherwise, if lliey
have to Avait luitil Saturday, it means that Australia will not have the
information until Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. WINSTON CHURCHILL : As I nnderstand, we have really got
through the eommittee stage and the report stage, anil all that remains, with
regard to the resohition, is the third reading; so that we shall not have to
begin detailed eoiisitleration again.

CHAIRMxVN : I understand that Ave pass the Resolution, and it is only a
question of wording which remains open.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It stamls for third reading, as Mr. Churchill
says, and wo have time to consider the expressions.

Mr. DEAKIN : There is no objection now to a precis being given to the
I'ress.

Sir AVILFRIl) LAURIER : I would not give the prcci.'i until we give
the Resolution itself.

CHAIRMAN : The next meeting of the Conferenec is iixed for Saturday,
at 11 o'clock. There were two other ])oints on the agenda paper for to-ckiy.
One is as to the organisation of the Colonial Office which was incidentally
mentioned in the discussion, and I do not know that I have any more to say
than I have said, but if Mr. Deakiu wishes to have it further discussed wo had
better defer it to another day.

Mr. DEAKIN : I woidd like some furtlier discu.-sion upon it.

CHAIRMAN : The other resolution is with regard to Imperial Di^feuco.
That Resolution is from Australia: "That it is desirable that the Colonics
" should be represented on the Imperial Council of Defence, antl that the
" Colonies be authorised to refer to that Council for advice any local (picstions
" in regard to which any expert opinion or assistance is deemed <h>sirable."
Perhaps if 1 make the statement whicli the I'rime .Minister lias given me, it
w^ould meet the whole case. The Prime Minister considers that it might be
with advantage made clear to the representatives of the Colonies at the
coming Conference that tlie Connnittee of Imperial Defence is intentled to
provide the means of discussing questions of a general or local charac-tcr
relating to d(>fence. It shouhl, therefore, be open to the Government of
any self-governing C!olony to sul)niit these questions tiirough tlie Colonial
Otiice and to obtain such advice as the Committee is abh^ to give. If so
desired any representative of a colony whicdi may wish for advice may be
summoned to attend as a member of the Conuuittee during the discussion on
the question, raised.

F 2

Third Day.
18 April 1907.

FCTUKE

Constitution

OF THE

Conference.

84

Mr. DEAKIN : That practically meets the proposal, though I should
like to have the opportunity of speaking to the Secretary of the Coimuittee
of Defence who has not onlj' a national, hut an established Australian
reputation, before this is finally disposed of. It appears to be completely
satisfactory.

CHAIRMAX : I think the members of the Conference imderstand that
the Committee of Imperial Defence is a body which consists of one permanent
mendoer, the Prime ^linister, and the other memliers are summoned as
occasion requires. Therefore, this proposition really deals with the Colonial
question on exactly the same principle.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : When wiU that come up for consideration ?
CHAIRMAN : I do not know whether it reqiiires any more consideration.

Mr. DEAKIN : I want to speak to the Secretary upon it.

CILMRMAN : That is all I have to say as to the Committee. Military
defence is the subject of the next meeting, and naval defence is part of the
business for next week.

Sir WIIiFRID LAURIER : With regard to the resolution we have just
agreed upon, I would like to caU attention to the fact that we have not at aU
settled Avhat is to be the status of the Colonial Ministers in London. Sir
William Lyne l)rought that matter forward, and we have left it at present.

CHAIRMAN : I thought at the time we dealt with that question, I
pointed out I only mentioned the ex oj^ic'io members, but the whole resolution
means that there is to be discussion between the Governments, and the
representatives of the Governments other than the ex officio members will
attend, and I thought it was understood-- and I think you. Sir Wilfrid,
initiated it — that the particular question of the actual manner in which the
other Ministers should come in should be deferred beyond this resolution and
taken sei^arately.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : At that time I had in my mind tliat we
should not pass this linally, but the matter is left altogether absolutely
imsettled.

Mr. DEAKIN : I proposed to bring it forward myself, only we became
absorbed in this discussion.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : If that is so we shall have to think it over a
little more.

CHAIRMAN : I hoj^e if you do wish to alter the resolution on that
particular point it will not mean that we shaU have more than a third
reading. ,•

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : We have practically agreed to it, but the
i;Lher is a point of some practical importance, and we ought to come to some
cjcar understanding about it.

Mr. DEAKIN : Certaiidy. At the present Conference the understanding
is that the Prime Minister and one colleagiie would take part in each

85

ilisciission, wliilo on special mattors when the occasion dcmancls it, other riiira Duy.
^finisters might be asked to take part. is April 1907.

Sir WILFRID LAURIE R, : I have two of nij- colloagnes here, and I Coxstiti tk.x
should not like to come without either. <>k the

CilXKKKEXfK.

CHAIRMAN : The business on Saturday is as to militarj- defence. C^^"". Deakin.)

]\[r. DEAKIX : We must conclude this first, and perhaps wc might moot
half an hour earlier to finish it ])ofore our ap]iointMiont with Mr. Jlaldauo
at 11.

CHAIIUIAX : I will inquire if it is necessary, and will lot you l<now.
I have been making inquirios of the Chanoollor of the Exohoquor, who is
exceedingly bus.v jnst now with the Budget, and ho informs mo that he is
obliged to go to Scotland oiu> day at the boginuing of next week, and therefore
if it suits the Conforonco ho would proi'or to take a day in the following wook
i'or the discussion of the trade question. In that case he fixes Tuesday,
April .jOth, for preferential trade. The question, therefwe, is what sul)j('ets
we should take on Tuesday and Thursday next week. 1 bolieve the First
Lord of the Admiralty is willing to come on Tuesday for the discussion of
naval matters, and then the subject of emigration can bo taken on Thursday.

Adjourned to Saturday morning at 11 o'clock.

48668. F 3

8G

Fourth Day. FOURTH DAY.
2U April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
SatijUday, 2Uth April 1907.

Present :

The l^iio-ht Honourable The EARL OF ELGIX, K.G., Secretaiy of State

for the Colonies (President).

The Plight Ilunourable Sir Wilfrid Lauimer, G.C.M.CI., Prime Minister

of Canada.
The Ilononrable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia and

Defence (Canada).
The Hononrable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).,
The Hononrable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Conmionwealth

of Australia.
The Honourable Sir "William Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of State for

Trade and Customs (Australia).

The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New
Zealand.

The Honourable L. S. Jameson. C.B., Prime jMinister of Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape

Colony).
The HonouralJe F. P. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.

The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of

Newfoundland.

General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.

Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.

Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of State
for the Colonies.

Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the India Office.

Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., CiLG.,) 7 • , o , •
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., J '^"'"^ Secretaries.

Mr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

Also present :

The Right Honourable R. B. Haldane, K.C, J\1.P., Secretary of State
for War. .

General the Honourable Sir Neville Lyttelton, K.C.B., Chief of the
General Staff.

General Sir W. G. Nicholson, K.C.B., Quartermaster-General.

Major-Geueral Douglas Haig, C.B., Director of Military Training.

j\Iajor-General .J. S. Ewaut, C.B., Director of Military Operations.

87

CPTAIRMAN : Geutlemon, Ijcforo wo l)o<?iii business I may just remind Fourth Dut.
you tJiat our uuiubcrs arc coniplctu with the arrival of Sir liui)orl Bond. I 20 April 1907.

hope that I may extend a welcome to him from the Conference, and I may,

perhaps, mention that I have had the advantage of an interview with him at
which I explained what Iiad taken place at the meetings Ijeforo he was able
to attend, and I tliink he will be able to say that as far as he is concerned lie
is ready that matters should go on from the point which they had reached at
the last meeting.

Sir ROBERT BOND : My L(jril, and gentlemen, permit me to convey
to your Lordship an expression of my sincere thanks for your kind conUal
greeting and welcome to this Conference, and to say that it is a matter of
very great regret to me, that, owing to circumstances over which 1 had no
control, I was prevented from being here at the opening of this Conference,
and from tlnis having tlie i:)rivilcge of listening to the opening address of the
Right llouourabh; the Prime j\linister. Your iJordship has very kindly hati me
furnished this morning with a copy of the proceedings, and I have been able
to peruse with both pleasure and profit the words of wisdom and encourage-
ment contained in Sir Henry Canipbell-Bannerman's address. I am pleased
to notice that the Prime ^Minister in bringing directly under the notice of
tliis Conference the agenda of business that is to engage its attention, did not
limit its deliberations to matters therein set forth ; that he very gracefully
recognised that, owing to the different conditions appertaining in the Colonies,
it is scarce!}' possible that we can all approach the consideration of the various
subjects that are to engage our attention from precisely the same stantlpoint ;
that our dealings with many of those matters must be necessarily governed by
the ojiinions and desires of those we represent, and that our conclusions must
be subject to the approval of our respective Parlianu-nts. The Empire
stands before the world to-daj^ as probably the greatest expression of national
expansion that the world has ever seen, and tliis, my Lord, 1 tliink has been
brought about by due and proper regard for public opinioJi in the varit)Uii
States or Colonies that comprise the Empire. Therefore, 1 submit that
notliing but good can come from the r(^cognition of the principle that
Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman set forth in his address.

May I be permitted, my Lord, to join in the expression of regret that
has proceeded from the Conference in reference to the illness of that
distinguished statesman who i)resided over the affairs of the Conference
in 1902. Probably no British statesman has ever had such a warm place
in the affection of the Colonies as Mr. Chamberlain, llis illness, therefore,
has occasioned the deepest concern throughout all the Ct)Ionies of the
Empire. In joining in the hope that has been expressed by this
Conference I am not only voicing my own heartfelt desire, l)ut I am
sure I am echoing the desire of those I have the honour to represent.

May I also be permitted, my Lord, to join with tliose wl:o paid a tribute
of respect to the memory of the late Prime Minister of New Zealand,
Mr. Seddon. We who sat with him in conference five years ago will
remember with admiration his strong personality and wide imperialism,
and I think all who watched his political career cannot have failed to
ap])reciate that by his decease a great and unique character aiul empire-
l)iiilder has passed away. As the Prime Minister remarked, my Right
Honourable friend. Sir AVilfrid Laurier, and myself are the only two mGnd)ers
of this I'onference who sat in the former one, five years ago. I anuiuite sure
that it is a satisfaction to both of us that the vicissitudes incident to jpublic
life have not come our Avay, and that we are again privileged to join in this
important Coiiferencc.

I again thank you, my Lord, and the other Members of the Conference
for your kindly welcome to-day.

F 4

Fourth Day. FUTURE COKSTITUTION OF THE CONFERENCE.

20 April 1907. CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we have met at an earlier hour this morning

FcTUKE ill order that we might formally adjust the Resolution which was, in

CoissTiTiTiox principle, accepted at our last meeting. I have endeavoured to get it so

OF THE far as I could into shape in certain details that the Conference desired, and

CoNFEKExcE. "i. j-^^^ ]:,eerL in your hands, and I shall be glad to hear if tliere arc any

remarks to be made.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am satisfied with it so far as Canada is
concerned. Sir Robert Bond might not have had the facility, perhaps, of
perusing the discussions. I do not know whether he has or not.

Sir ROBERT BOND : No, I have not fully perused the discussion, Sir
Wilfrid. I only received the papers this morning, and consequently but
glanced through them.

Sir WIEFRID LAURIER: The question which we have been
■ discussing. Sir Roliert Bond, has l)een the creation of an Imperial Council,
and we have come to the conclusion that this Avas not advisable, and this is
Avhat we have drafted, endeavouring to meet as far as we could the different
opinions that have prevailed. I observe. Sir Robert, that in the despatch
tiiat yoii sent in answer to the Colonial OfHce despatch on this subject you
do not seem to favour the creation of such a Coimcil. This is Avhat we have
practically agreed to subject to modification, of course, nothing being settled
until it is fiaally passed : " That it will be to the advantage of the Empire
" if Conferences to be called Imperial Conferences are held every four
" years at which questions of common interest may be discussed and
" considered as between His Majesty's Government and the Governments
" of the self-governing Dominions. The Prime Minister of the United
" Kingdom will be ex-offieio I'resident, and the Prime Ministers of the
" self-governing Dominions ex-offic'io members of the Conference. The
" Secretary of State for the Colonies will be an ex-officio Member of the
" Conference, and will take the chair in the absence of the President, and
" will arrange for such Imperial Conferences after comnmnication with the
" Prime Ministers of the respective Dominions." This paragraph, so far as
it goes, meets with the approval of Canada : "' Sucli other iMinisters as the
" respective Governments may ai^poiut will also be members of the Conference
" • — it being understood that except by special permission of the Conference,
" each discussion will be conducted by not more than two represi^ntatives
" from each Government, and that each Government will have only one
" vote."

CHAIRMAN : That part was not before the last meeting.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : So far as I am concerned I may say at once
that I am satisfied with this.

CHAIRMAN : I think Sir Robert Bond has seen it.

Sir ROBERT BOND : I have it before me, and may oljservc that Lord
Elgin showed me last evening this Resolution, when I intimated to him that
with the principle involved I concurred.

CHAIRMAN : If you are taking it paragraph by paragraph, thcBe is jiist
a small matter iMr. Deakin has mentioned to me. It is only to break up the
last sentence, and he suggests there should be a stop after the Avord
. " President " — " The Secretaiy of State for the Colonies will be an ex-ojjklo
" member of the Conference and will take the chair in the absence of the
" President." It is quite true that the last part of the sentence has not a
very direct connection with the first. I propose that we should strike out the
word " and " and Ijegin the sentence with "He."

su

Sir WILFKID LAUKIEU : Yes,

CHATR^IAN : There is one other point, T think I ouftht to call the
attention of the Conference to. We agrood, and I am not goinijj back
upon tlie asi'eenient, that instead of the word " Colonies " we should use the
word "Dominions;" but is it sufliciently defined if wo use the word
" Dominions " alone throughout ? After all, we, in this country, are part of
I lis .Majesty's self-governing l)ominions strictly speaking, and I would suggest
that we might take what is really the official term " the Dominions l)eyond the
seas" in the iirst place where it occurs — "the Governments of the self-
governing Dominions beyond the seas," and any other reference to it in the
course of the Resolution might very well be " Dominions." That would make
it absolutely clear what wc mean by the expression in the first place.

Sir WILFKID LAUIMER : Yes, I see no objection to that as far as I
am concerned.

CHAIRMAN: Then we will insert the words "beyond the seas" after
" Dominions " in the first place.

l)r. JA^IESOX : There is another small point. I should like to see the
singular instead of the plural used in the first two lines of the Iirst paragraph
— ^" A Conference to be called the Lnperial Conference is held every four
years," t'tc. I think it Avould make it more emphatic than the word
" Conferences." It is simply substituting the singular nimdjer for the
plural.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it would read very much better.

Sir ROBERT BOND: I think it is a very decided improvement. I
think it is far more emphatic.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think so too.

CHAIRMAN : Then subject to those alterations we agree to the first
paragraph.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Somebody has suggested to mo that instead
of having "His i\Iajesty's Oovernment" we should have "the Government of
the United Kingdom." I suppose we are all His :\Iajesty's Governments.

CHAIRMAN : It is a technical term for His Majesty's Government here.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes, it is very well understood, but sup])ose
we said " the Government of the United Kingdom," as we all claim to be His
Majesty's Governments.

Mr. DEAKIN : " As between His Majesty's Government of the United
" Kingdom and His Governments of the self-governing Dominions beyond
" the seas."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: That would meet my views. The point
was brought to my notice by a friend, but " His Majesty's Government " is
such a technical expression that there can be no mistake about it.

;Mr. DEAKIN : " His Majesty's Government " in Canada means the»

Canadian Government.

Fourlh I)av.
20 April I'.Ki".

FlTlKE
CoNSTlTlTHiN"

OF THE
Co.NKEKEXCE.

90

FoarthD»y. j)^. JAMESON: AVhy not "His Majesty's Government and His

20 April 1907. Governments of the self-governing Dominions."

Future
Constitution. Mr. DEAIvIN : Yes, that is an improvement.

OF THE

Conference. ^.^^ WILFRID LAURIER : I am satisfied with that.

CHAIRMAN : And leave "His Majesty's Government."
Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, suhstitnting " His " for " the."
CHAIRMAN : Next come the words with regard to the Ministers.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That satisfies me.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not know ^\dlat has been done in reference
to that first ^Daragraph whicli Sir Wilfrid Lanrier read. There has been
some alteration made and I could not catch it.

CHAIRMAN : They are only verbal alterations. We have altered the
first words into " A Conference to be called the Imperial Conference is held "
instead of putting it in the plural, and we have made the words to run " as
" between His Majesty's Government and His Governments of . the self-
" governing Dominions beyond the seas," that is all. Then there is the
addition " Such other Ministers as the respective Governments may appoint
" will also he members of the Conference — it being understood that except,
" Ijy siDCcial permission of the Coni!erence each discussion will be conducted
" by not more than two i-epi'esentatives from each Government and that each-
" Government will have only one vote " — is that agreed to.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Clearly.

CHAIRMAN : Now the second paragraph of the Resolution.

Mr. DEAIvIN : I have a suggestion to make in this paragraph. You
were good enough to adopt throughout this Resolution the language submitted
by one or other of the diiferent states, and consequently it now reads :
" That it is desirable to estaljlish a system by which the several Governments
" represented shall be kept informed during the periods between the Con-
" ferences in regard to matters which have been or may be subjects for
" discussion, by means of a permanent secretarial staff charged under tlie
" direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies," and so on. But the
Avord " secretarial " has ceased to have a meaning or, at all events, the
Tueaning that was attached to it when first brought forward. What is 2iow
intended is not a separate body, but a branch of the Colonial Office. On
referring to your remarks, my Lord, I notice that you stated your intention
was to separate the departments of this olficc. You wiU have a,. distinct
division which will not be exactly apart in the department, but Avill be the
one division concerned Avith the business of all the self-governing Colonies,
and will not be directly concerned Avith that of the CroAvn Colonies. I do
not think that can be clistinguished from the rest of the Colonial Office by
being called a secretariat, because practically all your office is a- secretariat.
It is for you, my Lord, to select the phrase which Avould best define your
own intention, but as this stands, it appears to me that Avhat is intended

91

is merely thai this work sliouhl l)e earried out by means of a portion of tlie Fourtli Day.
stall" inidcM- tlie direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which i>o April ly07.

shall !)(> charged Avith the duty of whatever work may be allotted. The

proposal for a secretariat was a proposal for a body independent of this or Imtikk

any other (k'partnient. It was to he a kind of joint and several department " oVnil:""'
under the control of the Prime ilinister of (Jireat Britain. As such, the Coxkkkkn. k.
Avord "secnMariat" was niH'cssary, in onhu* to make it quite clear that tlicre (^Mr. iJeukin.)
was no intention of creating a hody with any authority other than to perform
the necessary secretai-ial, statistical, and other work cast upon it by the
Conference or by some of the Covermnents represented. That was specially
necessary to meet Sir Wilfrid Laurier's criticism, l)ut under the present
circumstances that proposal has entirely disappeared. This proposal is
nothing like it. The present project is that there shall be a portion of the
Colonial Ollice, a distinct division, not exactly set apart, Avhich is to deal with
us. Consequently the former title appears to me to be no longer appropriate.
My own suggestion is that wo should now indicate what is int(>nded, and it
is for you, mj' Lord, to say what is intended.

CHAIRiMAiSi : I did not mean to go into further details, for the reasons
I gave at the former meeting, but I may just say that in my own mind
I had intended to go a little more towards meeting you than you have
expressed, (^ur practice in this ollice hitherto has been to select gentlemen
from our staff who we thought, and I tliiuk quite rightly, were well
(jualilied to prepare tlie business for the Conference, and to act as its
secretaries. What we have in our minds to carry out, and hope to be
able to carry out in the future, is that we should appoint a gentleman on
our staff to be the secretary for the Conference, not for one Conference
only, but to continue the business as a member of the staff" of the olHce and
in a division of the office, as I said before, but that being his specific duty,
thereby focussing all the business in the way which I think the luend^ers of
the Conference in their various resolutions expressed the desire it shoidd be.
That is what Ave hope to do, and that is the reason we iise the expression
"secretarial staff." You quite understand, I think, that aa'c can make that
arrangement without interfering Avith the responsibility or organisation of
the office, but still in such a manner, I think, so far as it is capable of being
done Avithin the Avails of the office, as to meet the Avishes that the other
members of the Conference haA'e expressed. That is the nu-aning of the
expression. I have no ol^jection to one form or the other, because Ave can
do it either way.

Mr. DEAlvIN : Have you any objection then to substitnting " A portion
" of the staff' under the direction of the Secretary of State for the Colonies
"which shall be charged Avitli the duty"? I think it more correi-tly
expresses it.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think it is better to leave it as it stands.

Dr. JAMESON : Do not you think that the further explanation which
the Secretary of State has made shows that he is anxious to meet, an far as
possible, our extreme vieAvs expressed the other day.

Mr. F. R. MOOR ; Not extreme, but advanced.

Dr. JAMESON : Advanced is better. It is better to leave the Avord
iu as foreshadoAving what is coming at the next Conferenct; to meet our
views expressed the other day. 1 should like to see it remain.

02

Fourth Day. Mr. DEAKIN : It is for Lord Elgin to consider.

20 April 1907.

y J Sir AVILFRTD LAURIER : I do not care how it is expressed so long

Constitution- ^^s i* is on Ministerial responsibility. That is the only thing I attach

OP THE importance to.
Conference.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : The point raised by Mr. Dealdn is quite a clear
one, and no doubt it would probahl}- more correctly indicate what the actual
decision is, but I have a preference for indicating a permanent secretarial
staff.

Mr. DEAKIN : If you appeal to me on the ground of preference, I am
bound to agree.

"to^

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Upon that ground I assume you will vote for it
as it is.

Mr. DEAKIN : I will.

CHAIRMAN : Then it will stand as it is.

Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN : Then we pass the second paragraph. The third para-
graph we hope we have put into shape as regards words.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That will be the fourth paragraph no^v ?

CHAIRMAN : Yes. The paragraph is " That upon matters of import-
" ance, requiring consultation lietween two or more (lovernments, which
" cannot convenientl.y be j^ostponed until the next Conference, or involving
" subjects of a minor character or such as call for detailed consideration,
" siibsidiary conferences should be held between representatives of the
" (xovernments concerned, specially chosen for the purpose."

Mr. DEAKIN : The only suggestion I have there is that in the last line,
instead of " the Governments concerned," which seems to point oidy to such
of the Governments as are named in the first sentence, including only the
larger self-governing States such as Canada and Aiistralia, it might be well
to substitute the Avord "any" for the word "the" — "any GoA^ernments
concerned" — in order to cover the introduction of matters which are purely
Provincial in Canada, or purely State in Australia, or a mixture of lioth.
This would plainly indicate that it was in contemplation that members of
both classes of Governments might, if necessary, take part in the sidjsidiary
conferences when the subjects with which those conferences Avere dealing
■were wdiolly or chiefly Avithin the domain of either State or Provincial
Governments. Tlie federal and local governments might both be represented
when dealing Avith ,si)ecial subjects Avhen they were Avithin the constitutional
poAvers of both sets of Ciovernments. •'

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think that ought to be done. I am just a little
in doiJjt as to the intention of the Avord "chosen," ahvaj'S assuming, in the
ordinary practical Avorking of the respective Governments of the several
coinitrios, that Canada and Australia desire to have a conference upon an
inqiortaut matter, this Resolution ratlier supposed they would have to be
chosen ]iy probably all the members of the Conference.

93

CTfAIR^fAN : No, chosen by each (loveriiment. It only meaut it was Fourth Day.
not necessarily chosen under (he restrictions of the Conference. 20 April l'»07.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: T am quite satisfied with the Resolution (_.^^?1',™„^.
as it is. If 1 understand !Mr. Deakiii ari.ijht, what he had in his mind was '^^ ^,,,,

that the State; Ciovernments of Australia or the Provincial (lovornments of CoNKEictxiL.
Canada might have the power to come within the scope of this Resolution.
For my part 1, with all duo respect, differ altogether from this. I think we
should i^rovide here for the Governments which are here represented. There
may be dilferences in Canada or in Australia between the Federal Govern-
ments and the State Governments. I do not think this ought to be encouraged
at all ; on the contrary, for my part, I believe in one respect our c'onstituti(jn
is better than that of Australia, in tliat the power is in the central Govern-
ment and is not in the State as Avith theirs. Even in the best and most
satisfied countries, like Canada at present, wo may have dilferences of opinion
between the Federal and State Governments. There is one at present
Ijetween us and the Government of British Columbia, and Lord Elgin has
authorised the Govermnent of Ih-itish Columbia to come here as to some
matter which has been in issue between them and us, that is to say, between
British Columbia and Canada. This will always be done whenever a
Province or State appeals to the Imperial Government here. They are always
sure to have a hearing, but I would, for my part, deprecate the introduction
of anything which is not here strictly relevant to, and conliued to, th(!
relation between the Crovernment of the United Kingdom and the Govern-
ments here represented.

Mr. DEAKIN : Am I to understand, Sir Wilfrid, that education is a
wholly Provincial question in Canada, or is it also a national question V

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Purely a Provincial question.

Mr. DEAlvIN : Exactly. A conference may be desired in Great Britain,
as there is, I understand, a meeting relating to education shortly to be held
here to which representative men from thi; different Provinces of Canada
probably, and certainly from the dill'erent States of Australia, are coming.
Now if it were desired that a conference of that kind shouhl be held, would
it not be well that it shoidd l)e related, although in a dillereut way, to this
branch of the Colonial Ullice, which is to xmdertake the care of the matters
relating to the self-governing Colonics V I feel the force of your observation
so far as it relates to a conference, if one could imagine it, at which any
diiference between the National Government of Canada and its Provinces
were to be brought forward. lean hardly imagine such a conference, and
do not see a necessity for thinking it in advance. What was in my mind
was the possibility of conl'ereiu'cs in regard, say, to education, or to methods
of administration of criminal justice, or hygiene, which are partly State
and partly Federal, and which can come under both, or which were held
solely between our States and your Provinces, or some of them and other
local bodies. If a conference were held in regard to any of those subjects,
shoidd it or should it not be associated with this l)ranch of the Colonial
Olhce which has to deal with the affairs of the self-governing Colonies, and
therefore properly mentioned here, or should it Ijo looked upon as something
quite apart and not in relation to this part of the Colonial ( )ffice ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I should conceive it as a conference quite
apart. For my part I do not see the necessity at all for this last paragraph.

n:

94

Fourth Day. J fljjul^ Jt is quite surplusage and means nothing at all. If you have a

20 April 1907. conference upon various things, either defence, or education, or anything of

y~T that kind, it will alwaj^s be called as a purely voluntary body, as is done

CoxsTiTiTioN- constantly. But if, on the subject of education, for instance, the conference

OK THE to be called were to piit in question the terms of the Act which at present

CoN-KERENCE. puts tlic subjcct of cducatiou under the Provincial governments, any amount

(S r Wilfrid of mischief might be created, and therefore, I do not think it is a good thing.

Laurier.) g^^t if it be that the Conference is called simply to advance and promote

education, or give a larger scope to it, I can quite understand that it would

be a purely voluntary conference to give advice. I would be afraid imder

the terms of this Conference you miglit bring in political qxiestions which

would create very serious embarrassment to us.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I imderstood this paragraph applied entirely to
the governments represented Ijy the Prime Ministers who are here, and it
shoidd not go beyond that. If it goes beyond that I foresee all sorts of
conq^lication.

Mr. DEAKIN : I do not press it then at this juncture.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I am satisfied.

CHAIRMAN : What is the result ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Let it go as it is.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes.

Eesoliitiou I., CHAIRMAN : Then I put it that this Resolution is the Resolution of the

P'^o*^ V. Conference.

The Resolution, as amended, was carried unanimously.

Military MILITARY DEFENCE.

Defence.

CHAIRMAN : We have now the advantage of the presence of the
Secretary of State for War, who will give us his views. I think it will be
the wish of the Conference that I should ask the Secretary of State for
War to address us,

Mr. LIALDANE : My Lord Chairman and gentlemen, I think it will
be for the convenience of the Conference that I shoidd state very shortly
what the point is that seems to us to be most important for discussion,
and for arriving at some fairly clear conclusion.

To jdunge at once into things, the effect of the war in South Africa made
a profound impression on the minds of our advisers here. We realised
that we had gone into that war Avithout adequate preparation for Avar on a
great scale, and that Ave had ncA^er fully apprehended the importance of
the maxim that all preparation in time of peace must be preparation for Avar ;
it is of no use unless it is designed for that; it is the only justification for
the maintenance of armies — the preparation for Avar. In consequence,
Avhen the war Avas over, the then Government set to Avork — and the
present Government has continued the AVork — to endeavour to put the
modern military organisation into shape. In 1901 a very imjjortant Commit-
tee sat. It was presided over by a civilian Avho had given great attention to
the study of military organisation, Lord Esher, and it contained on it tAA'o

very (listiii^uishofl oxpononts of naval and niilitaiy vifws, Sir .Tolin Fishor ami K..iirili Day.
Sir (Jeorgc^ Clarko, as its other ini'inlxM-s. Tlic (.'(imniittcc reported, ami its -jo April iyi)7.

r(>port. contained a eoini)lote sohnmo for tho ro-or/^anisation of the \\ ar Ollice

and of th(> Army. That scheme was adopted l)y the hite (lovermiient and has [,'"''.' ;^'*^
b(>en carried on by the present (ioveriunout. (Jnv Itroad feature is this, that
our naval oro;anisation has been the one with which we have been con- '•^*'- "»'•'""«•)
spicnously successful in the history of this cf)untiy as distinguished from our
military organisation, and, therefore, as far as was possible^ the naval
organisation was taken as a type. But the broad feature which emerged with
regard to military |)reparations was this : Tomit Moltke was able to organise
victory I'or the Prussian and German armies in 1800, and again in ISTO,
because he and the general stall' working under him were free to apply their
minds wholly to war preparalimi. That he was able to tlo this was due to
the fact that the organisation and business administration of the army in
]H'ace were kept entirely distinct i'rom the service which consisted in the
study of war problems and ii^ the higher training of the staff and of tiu?
troops. That was the principle recommended by the Esher Connnittee,
and it culminated in the provision of a brain for the army in the shape
of a Cleneral Stall". That (leneral Stall" we have been at work on for a
long time past in endeavouring to get together. The task was not as
ililHcult as it seemed at first, because the effec-t of the Avar was to bring to the
front a nmiiber of young officers who had shown remarkable capacity and who
constituted the nucleus of a serious and thoughtful military school. They
were got together nnder the Esher re-organisation and virtually there has
been a Tleneral Stall" in existence for some time. Bnt it was not nntil last
September that it received formal and complete shape in the Army Order of
that month. The General Stall" is now a cle jure body ; it has been a dc facto
existing body for some time past. The resnlt of this re-organisation, which is
now comjtlete, is that 1 am able to attend this Conference with certain dis-
tinguished officers who are with me to-day to furnish any information re(]uisite.
Sir Neville Lyttelton, the Chief of the General Stall", is l)y my side. Sir William
Nicholson, the Quartermasti'r-General, is with him, and also Sir (ieorge
Clarke, who played a great part in the Esher re-organisation, and who is
secretary of the Imperial Defence Committee. I have also with me here
General Ewart, Director of Military Operations, and General llaig, the
Director of Military Training.

The practical point that we have to put before yon is the desirability of
a certain l)road plan of military organisation for the Empire. W(^ know
that you have all got your own difficulties and the idiosyncrasies of your
own people to deal with. No rigid model is therefore of nse. But a coinnion
purpose or a common end may be very potent in furthering military
organisation. For ourselves we have over here worked out our organisation
quite dellnitc^ly, and, indeed, the practical form of it is at present the sid)j(H-t
of plans which are before rarliament. This conception of defence is that the
Army should be divided into two parts with distinct functions. There is a
part Avith defence as its primary main function, and it has no obligation
to go over the sea. That is raised by the citizens of the particidar
dominion of the Crown concerned, simply for the purpose of home
defence. There is the other part which exists not for local defence,
but for the service of the Empire as a whole, the expeditionary force, which,
in a country like ours, must be naval as will as military,— and I go further
and say primarily naval. There is the Fleet, which, in order to make
the defence of the Empire what we all hope and believe it is, and are
convinced that it must remain if the Empire is to hold together, must
have the complete connnand of the sea, and nuist be stronger than the
fleet of any other Power, or, for that matter, of any other two Powers.
And, in conjunction with that there is an expeditionary force cousistnig of

OC)

Fourtii Dip- i'egular troops wliicli we have just re-organised at home. This expeditionary
•'0 A 111 190" iorce, worliing in conjunction witli the Navy, will he ahle to operate at a

L ' distance for the defence of the Empire as a whole. Behind that, which

Military I call the first line, our conception is a second line consisting of those
Defex( E. home defence troops of which I have spoken. The events of a few years
(Mr. Halihiue.) ago showed that the Empire could act as a whole, and that in a supreme
emei-gency these home defence forces would ponr forth for the defence of
something more than their own shores. But that rests xipon voluntary
effort and not upon any rigid pattern. Onr main purpose in bringing
this subject before yon to-day is to emphasise the desirability so far
ns possible that these home forces of the A'arious self-governing dominions of
the Crown shoidd be organised, if not to a common pattern — because rigidity
of pattern we recognise is impossible with the varying circumstances of the
various countries — yet with a common end in view and with this common
conception.

At home we may have our territorial Army, if the scheme before
Parliament just now goes through. That would be our second line. At
liome you. Sir Wilfrid, have your Canadian Militia, a creation which may
be said in its function and purpose very much to correspond with what is in
our mind in the territorial Army. Mr. Deakin has the same idea in his
mind in organisation, and I think Sir Joseph Ward has also, and I believe
the same idea is in the minds of the (South African Premiers. So that it
seems to me we have all of us got the liroad idea of this distinction lietween
the first, or expeditionary force, and the second or home defence line in
our heads. If it were well worked out, if the fact is made to correspond
to the idea, then it seems to me the Empire would be defended as no other
nation in the world is defended, because its resources would be available
from so many quarters. But in order to work on a common pattern it is
necessary that we should have a common conceiDtion, and the conmion
conception, a matter of great intricacy and great complication when you
get to details, can only adequately be supplied by the most skilled advisers,
and that is Avhere the utility of the General Staff comes in. My main
purpose in addressing the Conference is to suggest for your acceptance the
opinion that the General Staff which we have created at home and which
is in its infancy shoidd receive as far as possible an Imperial character.
I will define what I mean. It is not that we wish in the slightest degree
even to suggest that you shoidd bow your heads to any direction from home
in military matters, but the General Staff officer would have as his function
this : Trained in a great common school, recruited, it may be, from the
most varying parts of the Empire, but educated in military science
according to common principles, he would be at the disposition of the
local government or of the local Commander-in-Chief, whether he were
Canadian, British, or Australian, or New Zealander, or South iVfrican,
for giving advice and furnishing information liased upon the highest
military study of the time. The General Staff' is a class by itself in
the Army. It is so with the German Army, and it is so with the
Japanese Army, it has just become so in the Russian Army, and it is so
in th(> French Army. It consists of the most highlj- trained officers, picked
men recruited for their kno^vn capacity, specially trained, and then detailed
to be at the el])ow of the commanding officer. The commanding officer,
according to the theory of the General Staff, is unfettered ; he has the
complete power of accepting or disregarding the advice of his General Staff
offiicer, liut he has at his ell)ow somebody who is there with knowledge, with
suggestion, with advice, furnished with all the resources which arc supplied
from the central school from which the General Staff officer comes, namely,
the headquarters of the General Staff'. If I may put it a little more in
concrete, 1 will take an illustration, if I may, founded in Canada. In Canada

97

you have made some progress yourselves with ihc idea nf a Cleneral Staff,
just as we have. You have, I think, some five General Staff officers in
Cauada at the present time. Xow, as regards your General Staff olHcers,
although you have a distinguished British Cieneral Staff officer with you,
General Lake, there is no organic connection between what is your General
Staff in endiryo and our General Staff as we have just created it here. But
supposing w(> w('r(i studying at homo in the General Stall' great questions of
Imperial Defence, and, amongst others, questions of Imperial Defence in
Canada, Avhat an advantage it would he to us, and I think to you also, if we
sent you a General Staff" officer, in exchange for one of your General Staff'
officers, who should come over here and who should be working with ns at
the very problems which concern the defence of the Kmpire as a whole in
Canada. And so witli all the other affairs in the Crown's Dcmiiuions. It
seems to me that we might broaden the basis of this General Staff which we
have just created. It is a iiurely advisory organisation of which command
is not a function. The l)egiuning, of course, woidd have to Ije very modest.
If these things were organised, and if we were to bring about such an inter-
change of officers as would tend to make the work of the General vStaff in the
largest sense the Avork of a military mind which had surveyed the defence of
the Empire as a whole, it Avould, it seems to me, do much to bring about
that uniformity of patt<>rn in organisation and in wcajKins, and in other
details regarding military matters, which is to some extent essential if there
is to be effective co-operation in a great war. 1 have circulated four papers
for the information of the Premiers. It is not iirohal)le in the pressure
of other business that you have all had time to read them.

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

Military
Defknce.

(Mr. Haliliine.)

j\lr. DEAKIN : We onlv received tliem when Ave came here this

Mr. HALDAXE : But I can give you in a fcAv sentences the substance
of them, and it the less matters if they have not l)een extensiveh' read,
because we are not proposing that they should be adopted as representing
any hard-and-fast vieAV.

The fii'st of those papers, which are prepared 1)y our experts here,
deals Avith " the strategical conditions of the Empire from a military point
of vieAV," and it calls attention to the three great principles on Avhich I
have touched — first of all, the oliligation of each self-governing community
to provide, as far as possible, for its own local security ; secondly, the duty
of arranging for mutual assistance on some definite lines in case of supreme
conunon need ; and thirdly, the necessity for the maintenance of that sea
supremacy which can alone ensure any military co-operation at all. Then
the paper goes on to indicate what Ave are trying to do in making our
contrilmtion to this end : first, organising troops for home (k^fence to repel
raids — that is the territorial army ; secondly, a striking force, an expecH-
tionary force is the proper phrase — the striking force is that small portion of it
designed to act swiftly, and ready to assist any portion of the Empire;
thirdly, a navy capable of maintaining command of the sea. Those
])rinciples may be said to represent the result of our n^flections upon
the events of the late Avar.

The second paper points out the importance of assimilating as far as
practicable Avar organisation throughout the I'^mpire, and of adopting a
uniform system of nomenclature in regard to such organisation. The value
of any assistance Avhich the self-governing Dominions may offer in the future
to the mother country Avill be nuich increased if it can be given in the form
in AA'hich it can readily be fitted into the organisation of an entire army in
the field. On that I should like to emphasise the absolute necessity of
turning our attention to this in times of peace. It is too late when Avar

A' 48668. ('

98

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

Military

Defexc E.

(Mr. Huklane.

breaks out. You are at an enormous disadvantage if you commence to
organise in concert for the first time after tlie breaking out of war. The
third paper relates to the patterns and provision of equipment and stores
for Colonial forces. The chief point made is that it is essential that the
) small arms supplied to any force which may have to act side by side with
troops from the United Kingdom shall fire the same ammunition as that
supplied to the latter. A difference in ammunition is one of the greatest
curses in war time. This paper also emphasises the necessity for the pro-
vision of adequate reserves of stores in peace time. The fourth paper urges
the desirability of the seK-governing Dominions, where possible and without
interfering with their own arrangements, giving their orders for ordnance
stores, particularly arms and ammunition, through the War Office, and it
points out that expedition and economy are likely to be secured if this is
done. That is a business matter for discussion. There is a great deal to
recommend it when you come to work it out in detail.

A very important thing touched on in this connection is the training of
officers. We are just now endeavouring to organise a reserve of officers. W^e
have had a Committee sitting which has presented a preliminary scheme,
and I know that the question is also engaging the attention of the self-
governing Dominions at this time. If we could do something to make that
reserve of officers Imperial in the same sense as the General Stafi: is Imperial,
so that you coiild give us from your reserve assistance in time of a great war,
I am sure it would be a great source of strength. Besides, I need not point
out that any organisation of this kind is of the -very greatest assistance to
peace, because it profoundly impresses the mind of foreign General Staffs,
who cannot be sure what reserve we have behind us when we have troops and
officers organised over this tremendously wide area. The general point made
in this paper is that to attain these objects probably the most desirable of all
courses is the one I have indicated, that the General Staff should be Imperial
in the widest sense ; and we point oixt that we shaU. welcome Colonial officers
in its ranks very cordially, and we shall be very glad to send officers to you
to take their places in it. We do not want to ask you, unless you wish to do
it, to double the number of your own officers by sending some here while
you have to provide for other officers in their places at home. If you like
we should be very glad to send out General Staff' officers to take the places
of those you send to us and in that wa^^ to provide a circulation. Our great
object must be to make the General Staff an imperial school of military
thought, all the members of which are imbued with the same traditions,
accustomed to look at strategical problems fi-om the same point of view,
and acquainted with the principles and theories generally accepted at
headquarters.

The Imperial Reserve of Officers is a thing which I think may be better
discussed in detail. It is so complicated that I do not think we could
profitably go into it in this very short Conference ; but on all those points the
War Office is a home for you so long as you choose to Ije here ; and if any of
the gentlemen present who would like to follow^ out these tilings more in
detail will come to us, we have prepared all the information. We should be
very glad if, for instance. Sir Wilfrid Laurier and Sir Frederick Borden
will communicate with us, either personally or through General Lake, fully
upon these points of detail as they come up ; and I wish to say the same with
regard to the other Premiers.

I think I have really now put before you the general points. There are
some minor ones, which again are matters for discussion in detail. If we
get into the field together it is very desirable that we should be under one
military code, aud as far as possible we ought to arrange that whatever local
arrangements may require in time of peace, it should always be kept in view

99

that for discipline there shoultl he a certain military code in operation in time Fourth Day.

of war. Mow you would deal with that is rather a question for you. One lA) April 15W7.

knows the delicate susceptibility of peoi)k' about anything like military rules -.,'"""

iu time of peace, but probably you, a\ itli your legislatures, can solve these ijeke.nx'e.

problems quite as easily as we can. ,-^^ llaliluu ")

I think I may conclude by making a suggestion of the extent to which
we can go in this Conference in a practical direction, I mean so far as this
particular (Conference is concerned. The working out of details, as 1 have
said, may well be done with Sir Nevillt? Lyttelton and the (ieneral Staff at
the War Oilice, and General Nicholson, the Quartemiaster-Cieneral, is ready
to assist in matters of administration and questions connected with it. But
it does seem to me that it would be a great advance if we could agree upon
a resolution in this Conference focussing the broad purpose. As I have
said, we know that this thing must be founded simply upon the attaining
of a common ])urpose, the lulHlment of a connnon end. It cannot be by
the imposing of restrictions or by rigitl plans which might not siiit the
idiosyuci'asies of particular countries. 1 have drafted some words emphasising
the question of the General Staff as the point, as the key to the attaining of
the working out of the common purpose, which does seem to me to be
possible as a conimon basis without in the least interfering Avith individual
liberty. The resolution I have drafted is before you. I would like to say
that if it is agreeable to the Conference to adopt some such resolution as
this, 1 should not desire that we should stop there, but I shoidd suggest
that you should send your experts over to the War Office to confer with
our General Staff, and any other department, as to the way of making an
immediate beginning in carrying out the broad principle which the resolution
affirms.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : My Lord, Mr. Haldane, and gentlemen,
I am sure we have all been deeply interested iu what we have heard from
Mr. Haldane, and I may say in a general way that I am in very close
sympathy with all he has said. There seem to be two ideas involved in the
consideration of this matter. I will not say the chief, but certainly the iirst
is the question of the defence of the different Dominions beyond the seas
— I am not speaking now of these islands — particularly the defence of
those Dominions against attack from without ; secondly, as I understand
Mr. Haldane, the agreement upon some method by which preparation might
be made within those different Dominions for effective co-operation with the
central forces of the Empire in the event of any severe strain or stress
arising which woxdd involve the integrity of the Empire. The first proposal
is very easy, and I think, so far as most of the countries represented here are
concerned, is being carried on to a greater or less extent. In Canada,
without waiting to dwell in any detail upon what we have done, I think we
have there made considerable progress within the last 10 years, and certainly
very great progress since this Conference met five years ago. It should
be poTnted out at once, that so far as the Dominions lieyond the seas
are concerncul, at any rate so far as Canada is concerned, we have no
authority under our Militia Law to do anything beyond expend money and
make preparations for the defence of Canada itself. We are absobitely
limited in words to that. We cannot call our Militia out for active service
for any purpose l)ejHmd the defence of Canada. Although Canada took part
in the troubles in South Africa, it was done by a force which volunteered
specially for the purpose and made a special contract i'oi- that purpose. I do
not see" veiy well how any responsibilty could be undertaken to supply any
force for any other pm-pose without an amendment in the law. Further,

G 2

Bovdeu.)

100

Fourth Day. there is a provision Avithiu the Ian- oi' Canada that if it is desirable to

20 April 1907. contribute a force to Imperial defence aln-oad, Parliament shall be called

together, the idea being that each case shall be dealt with Avhen it arises.

n^^Jj^''^ Now I come more to the concrete part of Mr. Haldane's statement,

UEFEN( E. '11 1 • 11 T*i*i 1

CSir Fredoriol- Particularly to the most important proposal, the resolution which we have
Rnvfipn ^ ^ before us, with reference to the establishment of the General Staff. I
would like to know exactly, if I could, whether it is intended that the
General Staff which is responsible to the Home Government and to the
Army Council and the Secretary of State for War, is to be linked in with
General Staffs in the different parts of the Empire, or whether this central
(icneral Staff is to have iudei^endent authority throughout the Empire and in
the different Dominions.

]\Ir. riALDAXE : Not independent authority. It would be a training
school which would send out and lend out experts. Members of your
local General Staff might also be members of the Imperial General Staff".

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: It seems to me that that is a most
important consideration. I would certainly favour it strongly, and as you
have said, Mr. Haldane, Canada has already established a General Staff'
in embryo, and we hope to develop it. We recognise the absolute
necessitj^ for the existence of such a body, but it really seems to me we
should have our own General Staff responsible to the Canadian Government —
and in the same way all the other Dominions — which might, as you
suggested, I think, exchange officers with your staff ; but I scarcely tliink
it would do to have officers in the different Dominions who were resjionsible
in the first place to the Secretary of State for War here.

Mr. HALDANE : The Imperial General Staff' for this purpose is a
purely advisory body.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : So long as that is understood I would
concur ill that view, and I am very strongly indeed in favour of the idea of
exchange of olHcers. I think we should do that, and we are doing it between
the dift'erent departments of the various services of this country and the
Dominion. I think, however, it is absolutely necessary that that point
should be thoroughly established, because I can see difficulties in the way of
an ollicer, for instance, in Canada considering himself to be in a position to
advise, whether directly or indirectly, the War (Jffice, without responsibility
to the Minister who has charge of such matters in Canada and without
responsibility to the principal military authority there. I do not Avish to
elaborate that ])oint any further, but I am glad to know that you entirely
concur in that view.

.Ml-. iIAid)AXE: Certainly, and a memoramkim wiU be drawn up by
Sir Neville LyLtelton which will be submitted to you making that perfectly
clear in detail, if we agree to carry this resolution into eff'ect.

101

Sir FREDERIf'K ROIJDEN : I will not detain the Conference by goin;; Fourtl. Day.
into detail. 1 have read the paper pi-oposed by the Army Council for 20 April 1907.

discussion, and so far as a layman is able to express an opinion, it seems to

me to be an a(lmiral)le paper and one in whic-h I thoroughly cuncur. There Ufk'/m"e
are, however, one or two points whieh 1 would like to mention, and one is in
connection Avith the very lirst paragraph, where it is laid down that the
fundamental principle of the niainten:ince of the Empire rests primaril)- on
supremacy at sea. We nnist agree in that view, and in that connection 1
would like to submit the advisibility — the necessity, perhaps — for the estab-
lishment in the different Dominions of factories, which will be a])le to
manufacture arms, for instance, und guns and amuumition, and so on, which
would render those conminnities safer in the event of the misfortune occurring
of the sea control being temporarily lost. I noticed in one of the other
papers submitted some reference to the necessity for having the diiferent
parts of the Empire— the forces of the different parts of the Empire — anned
with the same weapon, or at any rate Avith a weapon usiiig the same
ammunition. In Canada we have encouraged the establishment of a rifle
factory, which produces rifles iiring • 303 ammunition, although the rifle
differs somewhat in nn-chauism. I would like to say here that I did my best
to induce one of the factories in England to establish a branch in Canada
some years ago to manufacture the Lee-Entield rifle, but failed. 1 had to do
the next l)est thing, that is to get someone who Avas willing to establish a
factory, and that has been done, and we hope, although there has been some
difficulty, that a very good rifle will be issued, and, in fact, it is now being
issued to the troops. It seems to me, although nothing has been said about
that in this very important paper, that that is a matter worth bringing to the
attention of this Conference, and that encouragement should be given to the
diiferent Colonies to bring about the establishment not only of small arms
factories but of factorii^s Avhich would manui'acture orchiance as well.

With regard to one other matter Avhich, as ]\lr. Plaldane said, is a matter
of minor importance, that of pin-chasing through the War Office such military
stores as may be recpiired, in the very connection which 1 have just mentioned
I woidd like to say that in 1900 Canada wanted to jaurchase a consi<lerable
luunber of rifles here. I think I wanted to purchase 15,000 rifles. I
found it im]X)ssible to secure a single rifle. After a time I was offered
some 5,000 if I would Avait long enough. That is a condition of things
Avhich may arise — Ave hope it Avill not — at any moment, and that is another
argument in favour of having an independent source of supply Avithin the
Dominions themselves. It is also a reason AA-hy we should not be tied up
al)solutely to purchase either from the War Ofhce or through the AVar Oflice.
I agree that so far as possible it should be done. I agree absolutely that
we should purchase the same types of gims, and gims that Avill use the same
annnunition. So far as Canada is concerned, we made a contract some years
ago Avith Vickers, Sons, and ^Maxim for the ncAV artillery gun, and I believe
the flrst delivery of those guns Avas made to Canada, but Ave Avere very
careful to impose the condition that the guns must be in CA'ery detail first
accepted by the War ( Iffice, and that the price A\-e should pay should be the
price paid by the War Oflice. I cannot see that there is any disagreeable
i-ompetition in that. It has been suggested— perhaps not in those papers —
tluit Avc are competing really Avith the War Oflice in giving an order of that
kind. There can be no competition Avhen Ave lay down as a very first
l)rinciple that the price is to be the War Oflice price, and also that the gun
shall be precisely the samc^ gun. Those are perhaps matters of detail,
but I thought it only fair that I should make a statement as to AA-hat has
actually happened in that respect.

NoAv, in conclusion, 1 have oidy to say that I am sure there is, so far as
the Canadian people, and so far as the Canadian Militia are concerned — and

£ 4Sii(!8. G 3

102

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

Military
Defence.

(Sir Frederick
Borden.)

this will apply to all the military units of the Domiuion — ouly one desire,
that is, to prepare in every possible way for the fnll protection of our
OT^ai territory. We have shown, l\y relieving the War (_)ffice of the responsi-
bilitj^ for the maintenance of Halifax and Esquimalt, how far -.ve are willing
to go, and I think we showed a few years ago, in the contingents that were
sent to South Africa, what the spirit is that animates the people of Canada
when the Empire seemed for a time to be in peril. I only wish to add
that I believe thoroughly in the idea suggested here as to the adoption
of uniform organisation throughout the different parts of the Empire. There
can be no ditticulty whatever as to that. We in Canada have so organised
our militia system from top to bottom, so far as we could do it. In the main
we have adopted the princijile that it is absolutely desirable that we should
follow the lead of the War Othce in all matters of organisation, provided you
do not change too frequently here, so that we cannot keep up with you.
There can be no difficxdty in doing that, and it is certainly a desiralile thing
to do. 1 believe thoroughly in the exchange of officers. I ubsohitelj' concur
in the ideas expressed as to the education of officers. We are very glad
indeed that the War Office here is giving us certain facilities in the matter
of educating our officers which w-e are trying to take the full advantage of.
Altogether, I think that matters are working very hannoniously, and I see no
reason in the world why a great deal might not be accomplished in the way
of preparing for any supreme struggle which might take place — which we
hope will not take place, but which may take place — in the matter of keeping
in close touch Avith the organisation here in England, and in the matter of
exchange of officers, and of bringing about a better understanding between
officers and military affairs in the different Dominions and the central
organisation here in the British Islands.

Mr. DEAKIN : My Lord, and Mr. Haldane, it is true that I have not seen
one of the papers laid before us this morning, but have no doubt that has
not been due to any omission on the part of your officers. Owing to
the circumstances under which we are assembled, I have already had occasion
to mention casually that on arrival we were overwhelmed with a mass of
printed information, the value and extent of w^hich I have already acknow-
ledged, but which, under the circumstances of pressure which prevail,
are really, though in our possession, beyond our reach ; so much so, that,
occupied as one has been with the question immefliately preceding this, 1 was
not even aware of the existence of these valuable papers. The mere glance
I have been able to giye to them discovers that they are indeed most usefid
possessions of this Conference. These Avill take a high place, I believe,
among the sources of knowledge which, after this Conference, will be placed
at the disposal of the public of this country, and particularly before the
public of our own countries, where I am sure the study of these papers wiU
be of the grefitest vulue to ys all. Then we have been indebted to the
masterlj' and luminous exposition of the principles of military defence, which
we have had the privilege of hearing from the Right Honourable the
Secretary foj" War. I trust that my colleagues on the Conference will not
shudder if I venture to suggest that the sooner that statement gets in full
to the public of the Empire the better. Unless there be some reason,
not apparent to me, I do not know why it shoidd not at once appear and be
communicated to all who are interested in it. That, again, will be a store-
house to which we can refer for the elucidation of many matters. And for
my own part, I wish that it would reach every citizen of all our dominions.

It is not necessary, especially after the inquiries and criticisms of our
friend the Miuister of pefence for the Dominion of Canada, to dwell upon

103

the various pointu on whicli it can be suggested ttat the propositions Fourth D«y*
submitted to us to-day uiigiii iuipingo upou the detonuiuations of the •-'<> Aiuil iyo7.

Governments and Legishitures oi" the Duiiiinious here represented. For my

own part I feel no anxiety on that score, because the address which you Militabt
delivered, Sir, cbsplaycd at every point a most distinct appreciation ol our ,. ., , .' ,
susceptibility. You uiade it perfectly clear that what is laid before us comes ^ ^' °* '"'•'
in the way of counsel, expert advice, well-matured advice, backed up Ijy
knowledge, but simply advice, which it would Ije well for all our Parliaments
to take into consideration. That broad general principle having been
established I do not propose to dwell ujion it in detail. So far as 1 follow
it, that is not necessary. In partiiudars, we have the advantage of tlie
comments of the Minister for the Department of Defence of the Dominion
of Canada, who is necessarily much more in intimate relation with this
matter than either my colleague or myself. We are associated with
departments of peace and not of war, and the knowledge that we enjoy is
that which is general to all meml)ers of the ('abinet. Still, I have been
svifficieutly iuformeil by my colleagues tlirough their advisers to be able to
appreciate the fact that you have covered the whole ground upon this
question. Besides that you have touched upon some matters which it is
our desire to have spec'ially considered. So far as I am able to judge, the
proposition for the future use of the General Staff is one of as much import-
ance as it is of obvious magnitude, 'llie General Staff is supposed to be
the brain of the Army. Any proposition which woidd extend its activities
or permit us to share them, would be heartily welcomed in the Common-
wealth. A General Staff, such as tve possess, naturally occupies itself with
those problems which are peculiar to Australia and its very special situation.
At the same time we quite realise that any situation, however special,
requires to be dealt with in the light of certain general principles, and
particularly of the latest developments of martial methods and organisation,
and consequent!}' I. anticipate nothing but great advantage to us from any
association with the General Staff'. That will arise in a varietj' of ways
under other proposals which have been brought forward. In the list off
subjects laid befoi'e us the General Staff is properly put first, and really
the particular questions afterwards suggested, are, many of them, to be dealt
with, if not by the General Staff', at all events in the light of its studies.
Passing then to them, tve find the first matter submitted is our adoption of
similar armaments, and that is, 1 think, fully recognisable even by a la\nuan
as one of the essentials of effective imperial defence. We say yes to that
proposal, so far as it can be carried out, without the slightest hesitation.

Next, apparently a little out of its logical order, comes the proposal for
an interchange of units, which in our case appears almost impracticable.
Tlie great distance which separates us not oidy from this country but from any
other dominion in which such an exchange would be proposed, is one obvious
obstacle, but a greater obstacle is that our force of permanent men is relatively
small; it cojisists of well-trained exjierts whom we should be loth to part
with, and a unit in that sense we couhl hardly spare even if its position wa«
endeavoured to be taken by an equally competent unit abroad. We have no
possible objection to urge to this proposition except in our own case the
question of its practicability, that is as to the unit. xVs to the interchange
of othcers, I am specially asked by my colleague the Minister of Defence
of the Commonwealth to jiress for an extension of that ]>rincii)le. We at
present enjoy the privilege of exchanging with Canada and with India and
with yourselves, single officers, sending to you and you sending to us. We
find that in every tvay a tiseful practice, but we desire to carry it out on a
larger scale, that is larger for us because ours must be on a small scale as I
need not remind you. The proposal which you have made vfith reference to

G i

104

Fourth Day. ^}^Q exchange of officers represeuting- our General Staff and those of tlie

20 April 1907. General Staff' of this country, exactly lits in with another request which "we

,, intended to prefer. This Avas that othccrs of higher standing than those

Defence which have hitherto been exchanged should Ije exchanged. It has been

(Mr Deakin ) pressed upon me by my coUeagaie that, if possible, these officers should not

simply be attached to other men in this coiuitry of the same rank who are

doing the work. We Avish, if possible, that our men should be put to do the

work ; they may fail or they may do it imperfectly and that will have to be

provided against, Init we believe that without the actual pressure of active

respousiliility upon them you will not test their capacity and they will not

learn the limits of their own knowledge. In tlie matter of interchange, I

think you will find the most cordial approliation of your proposition from the

Commonwealth and its Defence Department.

There is a question to which you have not referred, a minor question,
but which arises in that connection with regard to the relative rank of
officers in the forces of the Outer Empire and the forces of the Inner Empire.
On this we hope to have the advantage of your counsel. As to the estab-
lishment of militarj- schools, in that respect as in others, we are envious
of the advance of our friends in Canada, and recognise that the course they
have taken is one dictated by sound policy and experience. Our own
difficulty is that the establishment of a true military college implies a
minimum number of regular students year by year, whom at present we
hardly see our way to obtain, becaiise of the want of adequate opportunities
for such a number afterwards within our own forces. We appreciate the
high class training which is obtainable in this country. It is more up-to-date
than we could expect to be, but at the same time our circumstances are
special. Take first of all the task of self-defence which is touched upon in
that very valuable memorandum. The defence of Aiistralia means operations
at such distances relatively to those of the United Kingdom, such enormous
distances among a population, except upon the coast, so sparse, with difficulties
of transport, transit, and concentration, all of them so absolutely altered by
scale and circumstance from those of this comitry that, for the purposes of
our own operations within the Conunonwealth, the training of your colleges
woidd require to be supplemented by jiractical training of our own. That
raises particular issues upon which it would not be proper to detain you now,
but it is perhaps as well to mention some of them. The need of adaptation
is especially manifest in a democratic country such as ours, in wdiich the
officers are chosen fi-oni all classes, in which eighty-nine one-hundredths of
them, like ninety-nine one-hundredths of our citizen forces, are composed of
men who earn their own livelihoods bj^ other callings. They devote their
spsLve hours to defence purposes, and that earnestly, as well as most generously,
becoming more effective in fact than they might appear to be, judging them
mereh- by the tests of military parades. In Australia we have been rather
sid)ject to mockery because we have followed so closely some methods of the
Imperial forces. As fast as thej'' Germanised we Germanised, until some
military experts have criticised iis for failing to adapt our drill and operations
to the country in which our men will require to act, dwelling too much upon
getting them upon parade in exact line, at the exact angle, with the proper
cap and licit. I admit that probal)ly we are open to some of these criticisms,
but are beginning to realise that there must be a greater amount of adflptation
to our particular circumstances.

The question of military education generally is serious. We see our
way to what those who advise us on these matters tell us is a sufficient
military training for the men, with little alteration in our j)re.sent system,
mainly because none of our men are pressed men, all are volimteers, who
join' because they have an enthusiasm for the work. The consequence is that

105

many of oiir onniniaiKltTs, nu-ii ol' oxptM-icncc, tell us thai ihcy liiid -.vitli our Fourth Day.
men a rapidity of progress, a readiness to siil.niit to diseipline and a prompt- 20 April Ui07.

ness in acquiring toclmical knowledge which they are not accustomed to find

elsewhere. That is because every man takes a "pride in his task ami throws UErJ^,'^r^
himself into it, because it is his chosen pursuit in addition to his ordinary ^j^ Deakin ")
labours. Hut while we feel hopeful about our men, we see that our weakness
lies in the officering of such men. We recognise what you have wisely said
that the most (essential need of the Army now-a-days is of the up-to-date,
intelligent, self-dependent military officer with a capable knowledge of his
biisiness and yet not a slave to the rules and theories of the study. Any
advice upon that head we shall be most Avilling and ready to hear, becau^;
we recognise that this is th(> direction in which we most need to improve.

The other point upon which Sir Frederick Borden with whom we
quite sympathise dwelt, is the wisdom of our making provision to supply
our own needs in times of emergt;nc-y. I am happy tcj liiul, from
my hurried glance, that the paper headed " Patterns and Provision of
Equipment and Stores for Colonial Forces," states in paragraph 0 that the
Quartermaster-General and the ]\Iaster (.ieneral of the Ortlnance recommend
that : " It is most desirable that the area of supply of the warlike stores
inider reference should be as wide as possible, and, therefore, the; Colonial
Govermnonts should 1)e urged to arrange for local manufacture and
" provision rather than to rely on the resources of the United Kingdom."

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : I had overlooked that, sir.

Mr. DEAKIN : That recommendaticm exactly supplies what Sir Frederick
Borden was desirous of s(>curing, and also supplies what we feel in our remote
position to be still mor<^ urgent. ()ur friends. Sir Wilfrid and Sir Frederick,
in contrast with us, r(>side in the centre of modern civilisation with highly
eqiiippetl nations all round them ; by rapid conunuiiication they are kept in a few
days in touch with all. Our position at the other side of the globe, surrountled
by alien races to whom we cannot look for aid or assistance in this matter, or
indeed in any other, and far from anj^ sources of supply of arms ami material
of w-ar is A^ery different, and we feel its urgency. We have an ammunition
factory already in Melbourne, l)ut although that meets our demand for small
arms annnunitiou, we do not ol)tain a satisfactory cordjte supply. We have
now under review, and intend to propose to our Parliament, such an extension
of our local production as shall enable us to cope with future demands some
years ahead. We have an annnunition reserve, of course, l)ut in addition
propose to cope w'ith our demand by factories of our own. 1 propose at an
early date to ask your colleague, the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether
it will not be possible for us, with advantage to the Admiralty, and with
advantage to ourselves, to enlarge any ammunition factories wdaich we may
be able to esta1)lish so as to afford the Admiralty some of the munitions it will
need in time of war. Needless to say, if we are cut oil" from sources of supjply
the ships of the squadron in those seas are cut olf also. If they are employing
their ammuniticm, as it is to be hoped they would be most effectively on any
hostile ships with which they have to deal, the (luestion of re-supplying their
stores, without a visit to a very remote base, would of course be a veiy
considerable matter for them. It would be an important matter for us if
we can lease or establish a factory on such a scale that its oiitput in any
given year may be stifficiently large to make us independent of any of the
reasonable requirements of war. That is to say, our factories to be reliable

106

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

Military
Defence.

(Mr. Deakiii.)

must be of a certain power. We can have a factory for ourselves, but it must
be on such a scale that in time of war its complete output might prove
utterly insufficient.

If, however, Ave are able to supply your naval requirements, or some of
them, at your own rates, that is to say, the rates you would otherwise pay,
making a fair allowance for any differences, that would be of great advantage
to us. We do not want to make any business profit out of it, but we desire
to have a factory alwaj^s at work and on such a scale that when the time
of war arrived it might readily be enlarged to meet even war necessities.

As regards the arms. Sir Frederick Borden has anticipated all that it is
necessary to say. We have been driven to do business with private suppKers
simply because the War Office could not supply us. Whenever we wanted
arms the War Office wanted them most, and thej' had them first.

i\lr. HALDANE : I think that was during the war, Mr. Deakin. I may
say that just now we shall be only too glad to execute orders for any number.

Mr. DEAKIN : Exactly, you are always ready to execute orders when
neither of us is under pressure. That is what has driven us outside. We
know the value of the War Office criticism, but we also know that the War
Office looks after itself before it looks after iis, and when it is eager for
arms or ammunition we have to wait. Any arrangement which can overcome
that and put us on a basis that for any reasonable demand we should be
entitled to a certain proportion of your output of anything we do not make
for ourselves, would be a great improvement. Just as you wish to know
in advance what support you may expect fi'om each part of the Empire, each
part of the Empire is entitled to know what support in the way of arms and
material it is entitled to expect from yon in emergency.

Mr. HALDANE : I think we can do business on that basis.

Mr. DEAKIN : I hope so. I may say we do not take a narrow
view of our military obligations or their develoi^meut. The movement the
public with us are taking to most kindly, and which has most promise in
connection with our military strength, is the Cadet movement. We hope to
have at least 3(J,0(J0 cadets next year under training without counting those
who have already passed through, alid my coUeag-ue, who is sangiiine, thinks
we shall have 4U,U()0 or 5U,U0U in a short time. They get a fair training with
handy little rifles, amongst others the Westley-Richards, which is in favour.
We had tenders a little while ago in which a Belgian firm who make a
specialty of such rifles olfered to supply these Westley-Richards at about
37s. or 37s. 6d., whereas from Great Britain they wanted 39s. We took the
39s. weapon without a moment's hesitation. That was to help British
industry to tiirn out British weapons for British men. Although we have no
complaint against Belgian workmen, it is not our business to encourage their
factories when we can help factories for the manufacture of small arms here.
We do not fake a biassed view, but where we cannot supply our own'needs
we do desire to support the factories of this country.

The training of cadets, of course, is a matter which will tell more iu
the future than in the present. We are passing them through now at the
rate of some 10,000 a year. In our largest State, New South Wales, my
colleague reminds me that they have been passing them through at that
rate for a number of years. The consequence is that in a rudimentary

107

knowledge of drill, ^ettin^ them well set up, used to simple formations, and Fourth Day.

handling the ride, they do very well. Kille-shooting is rather a national i?<> April 1907.

pastime with us; it is favoured everywhere. I have had made, and shall be

glad to hand in three maps, one showing that in every quarter of Australia ijkk'fJo"e*

there are rifle-clubs in active practice— from the extreme north at Thursday ,vf n i.- \

Island to the extreme south, Hobart in Tasmania, and to the extreme

west in Perth. Wherever there is a settlement there is a rifle-club or there is

going to be a rifle-club, and although wo have not yet associated that

movement with formal drill the desire to have rifle ])ractice and 1)6 a good

shot being strong, we have great anticipations. I Avill tihow you on another

map that wherever there is a settlement, and ahuost wherever there is a

school, there is to be a cadet corps in active operation. There is some kind

of drill in every school. I will show you anothcu- map which exhibits eveiy

detachment of our forces, whetlier it is Artillery, .Mounted Infantry, Infantry,

or permanent forces, in different colours. You have oidy to look at the map

to see in an instant what and where our forces are.

The question of patterns, the question of purchase of material, and the
Military College having been touched on, the only matter remaining is a

Eermissible parallel betAveen the General Staff and the Committee of Imperial
•efence in respect of which a ^Memorandum is laid before us. 1 am happy
to know that you have complied with the request we have made, to be
somewhat more practically associated with this Committee, jiist as we desire
a practical association with the General Staff. I find that your Imperial
Defence Connnittee bears an analogy to this Conference itself, except that
we are represented politically. Both are devised to facilitate common
discussion and agreement, to advise in the case of questions of local or
general concern Avliich may be referred to us, and to bring experts into
direct touch. Both are purelj' consultative bodies having no executive
powers or administrative functions when national and colonial questions
are discussed. We have already enjoyed the benefit of the advice of this
Committee, generously given when it was asked by our Govermnent in 1905,
and we have now gained the further advantage of permission to send a
representative to it when any questions we submit are to be dealt with. I
would like to add that as this is the Conmiittee of Lnperial Defence,
covering both military and naval affairs, we shall hope to be represented
there occasionally. Although it is easy to put a question, it is not always
easy to put it without undue prolixity in indicating precisely where our
difficulties lie. We obtained a valuable report from the Connnittee of
Lnperial Defence, but it did not answer a number of queries in which we
were specially interested, and which we hoped to receive advice upon.
Now that we have permission to have a representative enabled to attend
that considtative committee, we shall be able to point out just where our
difficulties lie. Your reply would not be as the last was, most atlmirably
draftccl from a general point of view, without meeting some of our
particidar ditlicidties at that time.

In conclusion let me once more say that your broad-minded view of
Imperial possibilities in the way of military defence, and the way they can
be utilised, is not only of the highest interest to iis, but 1 can assure you
will be practically reviewed in relation to our own circumstances with the
warmest possible desire to co-operate with your oHice in the great projects
you have clearly outlined to-day.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: My Lord, the value of the meeting of the
Ministers from the self-governing countries will be enormously enhanced
as the outcome of the discussion and the information which has been

108

Jourth Day. afforded to us to-day in regard to the defence of the Empire. I wish to

20 April 1907. gr^y qj^ hehalf of the country I represent that I look upon it as of very

Military great importance to have heard the views of His Majesty's Ministers of

Defence. the United Kingdom upon this great question of the defence of the Empire.

(Sir Joseph -"■ have read some of the papers — not all of them — very closely, that have

Ward.) been furnished by your staff and I endorse the sentiment already expressed

that they will be most valuable, although some of them are of a conhdential

character, for the information of Parliament as well as for the guidance of

the administration that it is my privilege to represent here.

I would like to say I clearly imderstood from the observations of
Mr. Haldane that what is suggested by him is in the direction of suggestion
and not anything binding on the part of the Colonies. What they may do
Avill be of their voluntary act or of their voluntary co-operation and assist-
ance in the direction of assisting and bringing about a general scheme that
would be of advantage to the Empire as a whole. I am not going to take
up the time of the Conference at any great length. I want to say that
the aspect upon one point put forward by the Minister of Defence of the
Dominion of Canada, as to the powers of his country to incm- responsibilities
outside of his own Dominion, apply with equal force to New Zealand. We
are responsible for the expenditure incurred for the protection of our own
country. Our people in the past have shown their readiness and will do so
upon every occasion in the future, I have no doubt whatever, to adopt flexible
conditions to meet extraordinary circumstances shoidd they arise. Upon
some of the points referred to as to the obligations upon the Colony, my
colleagues in New Zealand, and Parliament itself, will, I am confident, ratify
and would undertake them in order to bring about a stronger and a better
system for the general defence of the Empire. I do not purpose to go into
details regarding the several suggestions. Reading them as a layman,
though holding the position of Minister of Defence of our country, the
proposals in the Memorandum signed by General Lyttelton are very valuable,
and, generally speaking, those strategical conditions from the military point
of view, our Colony would, I think, endorse. It is made very clear that it is
tlie opinion of the Gleneral Staff, not the opinion of the Government of the
United Kingdom. So far as trying to bring aliout uniformity from the
expert point of view, I think the Council of Defence which we have
established in New Zealand upon lines similar to that of the Old World,
would )je ver}' glad to co-operate with the military advisers of the British
Ciovernment, who have in this Memorandum given most valiial)le suggestions.
The possibility of assimilating War organisation throughout the Empire is a
high and worthy ideal to aim for. It is of the first consequence to Britain
itself to have a thorough organisation within its own borders as it is throughout
the Empire for the purpose of maintaining its own position an<l that of its
outlying possessions. We would be only too glad to co-operate in order to
bring about that assimilation of organisation throughout the Empire.

In reference to the desirability of having uniformity in patterns and
provision of equipment and stores for Colonial forces, generally speaking I
concur with the reservation whicli is made in No. 6, which I think Mr. Deakin
quoted from that ]\Iemorandum, wlicre it is suggested that war stores and
materials should be obtained if possible through the War Office so long as it
is recognised that we have the right, if we go for the same quality of ammu-
nition, to make it in our own country — with that reservation 1 cordially
endorse the sentiments expressed in respect to that. We already make a
large quantity of ammunition in our own Colony for our own use, and we
are likely to extend it. The suggc>stion contained in some of these Memo-
randa as to our using the same class of arms and ammunition is highly
important in view of any contingency that may arise in the futixre calling for

101)

Coiiiniou action otitside of oiii- own couutrv, when we may rpquirc in an Fourth Day.
emergency to send onr own miMi and onr own arms to another country 2:) April 1907.

for the purpose of oonnnon defence to light an enemy.

I wouhl like very much to say that xipon this question of the interchange ?{'.'.'^',*!'^
of units and oIKcers I hold a most pronounced opinion. Unlike my friend „.'''^J'^'^'
Mr. Deakiu, 1 think that New Zo-aland could arrange for interchange of units. \v,,rT')

We have tlie N'olunteer system there ; we have for j'ears had all the onlinary
organisations referred to hy Mr. Deakin in the matter of cadets and rifle
ranges, and these are being excluded for private citizens all over the country.
In connection with our Volunteer system, the only troidjle we have is to keep
the numbers down. .\U o\er our cotmtry we have the very liest class of men
offering to join our \dlunteer corps. They are encouraged by men in every
responsible position you can name in the country. Our captains of industry,
our kings of c()nunerc(>, the memi)ers of the .\dministration of the day, antl
the ofhcials connected with our important State departments and the rank
and iile of these de]iartments realise that it is upon the popular l)asis of a
Volunteer system that w(! hav(> to provi(t(> for the internal defence of our
country, and in the event of trouble arising they are our source of internal
defence, and we encourage it in every possible way. Now 1 have no doubt in
my own mintl that if there were — perhaps not in an extensive way in the first
instance — an interchange of luiits of volunteers from both parts of the world,
I do not say with the militia, because we have no militia in Xew Zealand, but
if there was an interchange of units, as betwt'eu the Old Country and ourselves,
I have no hesitation whatever in saying that we would be able to get from time
to time a body of men, not from any one ]iarticular part of the colony, but
selected from various poi-tions of it, with the instruction anil the information
upon detail so essential in times of trouble so that they may come back, and
l)y permeating the country, so to speak, be able to inspire and infuse into
others something of the enthusiasm you are trying to inspire in the Old
World, and it brings about a feeling that the interchange of individuals
amongst the rank and file tends certainly to a desire for unity and a desire for
co-operation, and that that is not to be confined to the ollicers only.

Mr. DEAKIN: What al)OuM heir livelihoo<ls?

Sir JOSKPll WAUD: I was just going to touch upon that. For my
part I should be prepared, and I am quite satisfied my colleagues would, to
see that a \'olunteer company coming to the Old Country for the purpose of
the interchange of practice and ideas, should be paid reasonaldy to enable
them to do so, and the same system miglit with advantage apply in l-lnglaud
itself. AVe need not aim at doing it on an extensive scale, but my belief is
that 'it would l)e worth trying with the idea of bringing about that
mutuality expressed in these inqwrtant papers. The desire voiced by the
Secretary of State for War to-day to try to have co-operation for the purpose
of defending th(^ Enq)ir(^ in tiuu's of trouble or stress is well Avoj'th working
for.

llv. Dl-'AKIX: That docs not put them baidc in their ohl employ-
ments ; you pay then\ while they are away, but when they come home
their places are taken l)y other men unless you make some extraordinary
provision for it.

110

Fourth Day. Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is so, but the same thing appHed during
20 April 1907. the time of the South x^frican War in all our countries ; we had many men
giving up their ordinaiy occupations and going out to fight.

MlUTABY

Defence.

Mr. DEAKIN : Many of them suffered for it afterwards, too.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: No douht that is one of the difficulties that
xmfortunalely are inseparable from the troubles of war, and I do not quite
know how you could, in the event of Volunteers occupying a position of
complete dej)endence in the country who would desire to come here for
instruction, arrange for the continuance of their appointments in their own
country until they returned. That to a large extent would have to be a
matter for them to consider.

Regarding the interchange of officers, the suggestion of Mr. Haldaue
iipon that is a most valuable one. We are doing it now to some
extent at the invitation of the War Office ; we are sending some of our
officers now from time to time here for purposes of instruction, hut
if they were to provide now, which I understood to be referred to by
Mr. Haldane, for allowing responsil:)le officers from here to go out paid by
the Imperial Authorities to take the place of the responsible officers we
have in our coimtry paid by ns, so that in the interval the void created
by the despatch of our officers to the old country would l^e filled by the men
from here, both countries paying their officers, that is, that we paid ours and
yoia paid yours, the purposes of information and instruction of officers and,
in my opinion, it would be most valuable indeed. Up to now we have really
had nothing of the kind. It seems to me that if we conld have Imperial
officers coming oiit to our coimtry and our Colonial officers coming home here,
each temporarily filling the position vacated by the other, it would, witliout
additional cost to our respective Administrations, enable the changing of
these officers to be going on for all time I should say, imtil that splendid
scheme which is in all our miuds of a common system of organisation with
a view to having, in time of trouble, uniformity in all respects and conse-
cxuently greater efficiency. A highly educated Empire staff from all stand-
points is desirable. I should most heartily support that from the standpoint
of New Zealand.

This Resoliition which 1 have read carefully, while not expressing
anything binding upon our respective countries, and which may require
to be altered in some respects, would be a good thing for us, as the
representatives of our respective countries, to affirm. It woidd show at all
events that this Conference of responsible men meeting here " without " (as
the Resolution itself expresses it) " wishing to commit to immediate action
" any of the Governments represented, recognises and affirms the need of
" developing throughout the Empire the conception of a Ceneral Staff
" recruited from the forces of the Empire as a whole." I am quite
prepared to support a resolution of that kind. It does not take awa^^ from
us the all-necessitous requirement of our own staffs being responsible to
their own (iovernments, of the control of our own staffs. It does express
a desire that we should recognise and affirm the need throughout the Empire
of having a General Staff recruited from the forces of the Empire as a
whole, and for my part I most cordially support that. Sir Frederick Borden
has well expressed upon some material points the views that his Govern-
ment entertain in the matter of protecting their position. Naturally we

Ill

all require to do tho same, and in conclusion I wish to say T am exceedingly Fourth Day.

glad of the opi)ortuQity of having lizard I'rom tiie Secretary of State for War 20 April I'JOT.

his views upon this matter, and 1 hope the publicity Mr. Deakin has

suggested can be done. I do not know whether we are to regard matters Df.kenck.

relating to defence as eoniidential. Some of the matters wo are dealing ,^. t„,„.i,
• \ -11111 'i-ii •!• 1 {^"^ Joseph

witn necessarily sliould be eoniidential, l>ut if upon such pomts as we are Ward.)

discussing lu^re we could give out (i am referring to anything I am

saying myself, of course) such jiortions or all of the speech of the

Secretary of State for War, educationally it would be valuable to the

people in our country, certainly. Th(i expression of opinion of a gentleman

occupying a position of such grave responsibility as the Secretary of State

for W^ar will be of intense interest to the public of the self-governing

(•clonics. If the principle of what is given out in a debate in the House

of Commons could be applied in this instance it would do good, but how

far the confidential can be removed from the discussion which has taken

place I am not quite prepared at the moment to say. I am animated, as

I am sure eveiy one of us is here, with the ilesire to see the system maile

as valuable as possible for the Old and the New Worlds, and without giving

away any portion of it to those who want to know what we are doing, other

than is aljsohitely uecessarj-.

I wish again to express nu' personal appreciation of the information
furnished to us and of the value of this contained in the official reports
submitted. 1 l)elieve a great deal of good will come, and the great organi-
sation which the responsible authorities here are trying to bring about will
be hastened forward. Speaking on behalf of my country, I am only too
glad to assist my colleagues representing the other countries in improving
as far as we possibly can.

Dr. JAMESON : I would ask my colleague, Dr. Smartt, who is specially
qualified to deal with this subject, to 6])eak upon it on behalf of our Govern-
meut.

Dr. SMARTT : Lord Elgin, I am not desirous of unnecessarily taking
up the time of the Confereiu-e, but wliik' not, as yet, having had an oppor-
tunity of reading the Defence papers — which only came into my hands
this morning— I should like to expi-ess to ^Ir. llaldane how much we are
indebted to him for the able and lucid manner in which he has brought this
matter forward, because it makes us realise that the Secretary of State for
War and his technical and scientific advisere are prepared to profit from the
experience of the past, and to do the best they possibly can to allow us to
meet any contingencies that may possibly arise to the detriment of the Empire
in the future.

So far as the Oape is concerned, 1 think we thoroughly endorse every-
thing that has been said by the Secretary of State for War with regard to
the General Stall and tlie interchange of officers. As the Secretary of
State knows, some short time ago a conference was held between
the various Oolonies in South Africa, under the presidency of the High
Commissioner. There the obligation.s which rest upon the individual
(;ol')nies, not al.Tie to provide for their own h)cal defence, but also to
provide for the defence of the whole of South Africa, were fully recognised.
A tentative arrangement was come to— naturally subject to the approval

112

Fourth Day. of the various Parliaments — whereby certain of our forces •ivould he inter-
20 April 1907. changeable in the event of any local emergency ; and the principle was

also recognised, and Avill naturally have to be accepted, or otherwise, by

MiLiTAUY ^^^ various South Afi-ican Governments. A point upon which I am
" ' extremely anxious to hear the opinion of my friend General Botha, is as
^ ■■• ™»' ■) iQ whether we shoiild not disband and re -enrol our permanent forces on
the understanding that they would be under obligations not alone to serve
anj^vhere in South Africa, but, in an emergency — and with the consent
of the Governments concerned — anywhere the Empire might require.
I believe the feeling of the people of Cape (Jolonj^, and I hope the feeling
of the general population in South Afi-ica, will be favourable to such a
proposition ; and I think if that principle were accepted by the other
Colonies, it would be the first nucleus of a real Imperial Army. So far
as our permanent forces are concerned (I speak more of the Cape Police
and the C.M.R.) I am perfectly certain that practically all of them would
be prepared to be re-enrolled upon that basis, that is to say that they -would
be liable to be called upon for service in any part of the world where they
might be required.

So far as our Naval defences are concerned, we have lieen onlj^ too
anxious to see if we could do anything to improve those defences, and I
trust that the result of the consultation we will have the opportunity of
having with the Admiralty before we return to the Cape will be that, on
behalf of South Africa, and certainly on behalf of the two maritime Colonies
of South Africa, some arrangement will be come to with the Admiralty
whereby we will, on the same basis as I have suggested with regard to the
Military forces, enrol, inider an Act of Parliament, a force of Royal Xaval
Volunteer Reserves who will bind themselves in time of war not only to serve
within territorial waters, but to serve in any part of the world in which the
British Admiralty may require their services ; because I feel strongly that
it is not the contributions whicli we give to the Imperial Government (which,
after all, are only a drop in the ocean) that are important, but that the great
contribution we shoiild give is personnel trained as efficiently as possible
in order to make up the waste of war should any gi-eat difficulty arise.

It is hardly necessary for me to say anj^ more, because I think tliis
Resolution will be accepted by tlie Conference. I only wish the Resolution
was wordcfl a little more strongly, and — perhaps the Secretary of State
for War may think it over — that it contained an expression of the opinion of
this Conference that a certain portion of the forces of all the Colonies or
Dominions beyond the Seas should be enrolled upon the basis that, with the
consent of their Governments, their services Avould be available wherever
required.

I may also, perhaps, Lord Elgin, as it is of such great importance,
accentuate what has been so ably said by Mr. Deakin and by Sir Joseph
Ward, that I do not think there is anything in the statement of the Secretarj^
of State for War which should necessarily be withheld from publication. So
far as the Empire is concerned. I am sure it will do a great deal of good ';
and I do not think, so far as foreign nations are concerned, that anybody can
take exception to it. If they did take any exception to it, it woidd onlv be
to assure then: that, so far as the British Empire is concerned, it is determined
to maintain and uphold its own interests in every part of the world, and
that is not a position which any foreign nation could possibly take exception
t(j. I therefore trust that the Secretary of Stale for War will consent to make
public this most valuable statement which he has been good enough to lay
before the Conference.

II-'.

Mr. F. 11. MOOR : My Lord, I have lo thank, the ( iuvcrumeiU lor having Kourih Day.
put before us so clearly and lucidly the views that are hehl here with regard -'o April 1907.
to some organised system for connnon TmiMTial defence, and the resolution
that is phiced before us is one which I can give my sincere support to. 1 Defence.
agree Avith the views that have been expresseil by the previous speakers thai,
by having a common system, such as is indieate<l here, on these broad
principles, that is one that can only lead to good.

The interchange of Staff officers, as indicated here, is one that will
undoubtedly be of great advantage to the Colonies in the direction of keeping
the Colonies duly informed and educated up to tlie latest standards of military
thought and sciiMice. 1 feel sure that, as regards South xVfrica, our tinal
military organisation with regard to that very important possession is still in
the lap of the gods, inasmuch as ',ve are not yet a federated coimtry, but we
all do realise that we have a counuon duty first in providing for an ellicient
local defence, and eventually in giving as much assistance as we possibly can
to the Enipire ; but we do feel. Sir, that to carry this out elHciently it can
only come al)out when we have obtained what we all hope will be in the near
future — a Federated Stib-Continent.

We feel. Sir, that in that part of the world we are especially bound to
fake the gravest notice of our military efficiency. We not only hold a most
imique position as regards the Empire in the event of a general war, lieing
in such a very important position with regard to all the important trade
routes, wliich is tlie imperial aspect, but we also have a very unique position
as regards our local euviroumeuts with respect to the large native jiopulation,
that it is our duty and our burden to govern and control. Having all these
heavy obligations upon us we feel that it is only by a common purpose that
we can carry out efliciently the conditions of the defence that will be
satisfactory to ourselves in the first instance, and also, I trust, to the Home
Government when our organisations are complete.

Speaking for the Colony I represent, 1 believe there, Sir, we are more or
less in advance of any of the other British Colonies in the Empire. We have
there a compulsory system as regards our Militia, and during the late
disturljauce with our natives we ditl find that this system of ours was fairly
effective. There is no doubt it will have to be amended in some directions,
but on the Avliole, Sir, it has worked well. We have also a verj- complete
cadet system there in connection with all our Public Schools. All our young
people have to go through a military training at these schools, not onh' in
drilling and more or less discipline, but by annual encamjiments and
efficiency in riile practice. This movement is very popular among the young
people, and to my mind is in the direction of the solution of that recognition
by every citizen that in the hour of peril, whether it be in the Colonies, or
whether it l)e in the United Kingdom, every man should do his duty with
regard to the defence of his countiy. We are training these young people
and 1 think the fact of their being trained at this early age imbues them with
a feeling that they do owe a duty lo their ct)untry and also to the Em|)ire.

Sir, I tliank you for the broad lines on which you have put this veiy
great question before us, and I feel that your views will have great weight
■with the people 1 represent, and 1 believe that your views will have great
effect on the Conference we are now^ attending in the direction of promoting
unitv witli regard to cmr common defence.

General BOTHA : I should just like to say a few words and to thank the
Minister for War very heartily for the valuable information he has imparted
to us. The position that we have got to take up to-day and to discuss is that

K 4S(;tiH. H

114

Fourth Day.
20 Apnl 1907.

Military
Defence.

(Geueial Botha.)

of organisation o£ defence. If the Empire is to expand still more, this is
one of the important factors in its expansion. We, in the Transvaal, are
to-day in a difBcult position. We are sitting there entirely without any
means of defence, and if, for instance, the British Government were to
remove the troops from there, our position would be hazardous. I have
discussed the matter with Dr. Jameson and Mr. Moor, and my idea is that, if
as yet we cannot bring about a general federation of South Africa we should
at any rate attempt to federate on this question of defence. If we succeed in
doing this, I think it will be a very effective way of aiding the Empire. I am
not quite satisfied as to the exact binding effect of this proposed Resolution,
and I should like to consider it further. What would be its exact effect is
not quite clear to me. That is all I have to say.

Mr. HALUANE : I do not know really that I need take up the time of
the Conference by replying, except in a few sentences. It is to me personally
deeplj' gratifying to find that to so very great an extent we have all been
thinking up)on the same lines. It seems to me that this Conference is A^ery
much of a common mind about the broad principles which underlie this
matter, but there are, of course, questions of difficulty. Dr. Smartt has
raised a very important point as to whether it would not be possible for each
of the self-governing Dominions of the Crown to raise a special contingent as
I may call it, for service in the defence of the Empire. That Avould practically
put that contingent into the first line, leaving the second line to be organised
out of all the local forces. Well, of course one sees a great many problems
that may arise at once as regards that, although it would be a most valuable
thing if it could be carried out. One sees the difficulty — to whom would
that force be responsible ? Who would have power to call it out on the
outlireak of war, and so on ? Would it be a vohmteer force or would it be a
force vdiich undertook the same kind of responsibility as the first line itself,
namely to obey the directions of the Commander-in-Chief, whoever he may be,
who Avas nominated to the supreme command of the war V Tiiose are not
insuperable difficulties by any means and I merely mention them to show that
that is probaljly a point upon Avhich this Conference cannot come to a detailed
or definite conclusion without going into matters.

Dr. SMARTT: If I may say so, Mr. Haldane, I had considered that
point and that was not my difficulty. The difficulty was that, say, in Cape
Colony, we have our Volunteer Forces and what we call our Cape Police and
our Cape Mounted Rifles. Under existing conditions, none of these forces
can be called upon to serve outside certain areas. My idea was that certain
of those forces should be disbanded (or Avhatever is the proper military term)
and re-enrolled, so that the men could, with the consent and control of the
country, be sent to any part of the world if circumstances required them,
because, under existing conditions, if the people of the Colony desired that
the services of these permanent Cape forces should be utilised, without special
enrolment they could not Ije sent away Avithout tlieir sj^ecial consent — which,
though it Avould be readily given, would naturally cause delay. It Avas
exactly the problem to which 1 think the Canadian Minister for War referred
Avitli regard to the contingents they sent to South Africa ; viz. : — that they
liad really to get the consent of the men ; there Avas no possibility of sending
tliem, even Avith the desire of the Government aud Parliiuneut, OAving to the
character of their enrolment.

Sir J< )SEITi WARD : We are entirely against discrimination of that
kind in J^eAV Zealand. We Avould not favour that at all. I- should like to
say that, Mr. Haldane.

115

Dr. S.MARTT : Do you mean nnrlev ;iiiy circumstances ? Fourth Day.

20 April 1907.

Sir J()S1"]PH WAIiD : Yes, and for this reason — I would like lo muke •

it clear from the New Zealand point of view — we want to have onr Volunteer Militaey

svstein carried out under a complete organised del'enci^ system in New efen'ce.

Zealand, without distinction of any kind for over-sea pur])oses. We are

against anything in the nature of a standing army. Wc have now in

existence our Volunteers many of whom are actively engaged in helping to

develop the country. We have a very large reserve force of private

individuals who are cpialiiied to servo anywhere, and Ave want to he

in the position, in New Zealand, of allowing it to ho a vohmtary oiYering

fxom the Government and the individual to fight over-sea when called

upon for the Empire, and we know we coidd get thousands of them, and

if we were to attempt to create a first line or com])any, whatever is

suggested, to he always ready for over-sea defence, I think you Avould create

internal difficulties amongst the ordinary, or rather regidar, forces Avho woidd

Avilliugly and spontaneously go out and fight when the time arises. 1 helieA-e,

with all due deference to my friend Dr. Smartt, that it is far bettor to let

the country as a AA'hole realise, in the event of trouble arising, that Ave can

draAv upon our A'olunteers for Avherever we are going to fight, not ear-marking

them beforehand. A good system of defence in our own country for use

externally Avhen the time arises is the better course to follow. It Avould entail

legislation in our country if anything of the kind Avere proposed, and our

jieople in time of peace do not want to ha\'e paraded a permanent

()i-gauisatiou to go outside the coimtry to fight. That is the sort of thing

that would deter them to some extent from general action AA'hen the time

arises. I do sincerely hoj^e at all events that ]Mr. llaldane will not, so far

as NeAV Zealand is concerned, expect us to go upon lines of that kind.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : I would like to add a word. This very
(Xucstion Avas brought up at the Conference five years ago, and tliscussed
thoroughly and disposed of, for that time at least. I, perhaps, cannot put the
matter better than I put it then. I will read Avhat I said then : " The
" suggestion Avhich Avas made that there should be a special force IcnoAvn as
" the Imperial Force for service abroad is one I cannot subscribe to, because
" 1 believe, in the first place, it Avould have a derogatory edect on the militia
" itself. I am quite content, from Avhat I know of the militia of Canada that,
" to have a special force receiving special favours, specially named, specially
" drilled ami trained, Avould have an imfavourable eifect on the militia at
" large. I Avoidtl pro])Ose as an alternative," and so on, and I concluded : —
" It seems to me that I do not think it is necessary that a set of men shall be
'' lab(-lled as being set apart for any jjarticular service, but that our militia
" should be made absolutely effective, so that when the moment arrives we
" can take part and assist tht^ Imperial Army by a voluntary enlistment."

Mr. IIALDANE : I am, at the mouient, keenly conscious of the diliiculty
Avhich Sir Joseph Ward and Sir Frederick Borden have raised, because 1
have just had to face it in framing the scheme of our OAvn second line at
home, and perhaps 1 might read to the Conference the clause in which I
came to the conclusion that I had gone to the utmost limit possil)le with
the second line. It makes me think that what Dr. Smartt proposes is
really in the nature of a special contribution uL the Colony to the first line
of Defence, a most valuable thing, Imt it is outside the strict organisation of a
second line force Avhich is what Ave are mainly discussing here.

Dr. JAMESON : On behalf of the Cape, may 1 say that, while 1 quite
quiti' agree Avith my colleague (in case there is any idea as to the Cape
Avauting to press this), this is perhaps one of these advanced ideas we have

H 1'

116

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

MiLITARV

Defenck.
(Dr. Jameson.)

put forward already ; perhaps it is a little too early to bring it forward, Ijut
no doubt it may grow and perhaps Dr. Smai'tt is quite right to throw it out
as a consideration to think of for the next Conference on that basis.

these

things which may

well

belong to a

Mr. HALDANE : It is one of
very inunediate future — not far off — but 1 am now going to read from the Bill
which comes up Ijefore Parliament for the fmal stage of the second reading
debate on Tuesday. " Any part of the Territorial Force " — which is the second
line force, which corresponds to the imperial second line we are discussing
— the local forces all round — " shall be liable to serve in any part of the
" United Kingdom, but no part of the Territorial Force shall be carried or
" ordered to go out of the United Kingdom." Now we have this by Avay of
proviso. " Provided that it shall be lawful for His Majesty, if he thinks fit
" to accept the offer of any body of men of the Territorial Force, signifying
" through their commanding officer, to sul)ject themselves to the lial)ility
" (a) to serv^e in any place outside the United Kingdom ; or (b) to be called
" Gilt for actual military service for the purpose of defence in such places
" in the United Kingdom as may be specified in their agreement, whether
" the Territorial Force is embodied or not," and it goes on to say if they
make the ofl'er, and it is accepted, that offer measures their liability, and
nobody is to be compelled to make such an offer, except by his own consent,
with the matter carefidly explained to him. That was the utmost we
felt we could go to in the organisation of the second line, and it is in
effect the change which was made in our Militia Act towards the end of
the Peninsular War. We were driven to rely on the militia towards the end
of the Peninsular War, and the substance of this clause was introduced as a
modilication of oiir Militia Act. However, I gather that you all, in Canada,
in Australia, and in New Zealand, are very much in the same position with
regard to that. That is very much the measure of what we want to do, and
if you could get that amount of latitude that Avould enalde you to organise your
second line so that such a voluntary offer could be provided for and accepted,
I take it that it would l^e a step on. Sir Frederick. I rather gather that you
have some legislation you might have to modify in some slight degree to meet
that, but whether it is so or not, that is a matter which, as we have said, can
stand.

If the Conference is agreeable, as I think it is, to this resolution al)oi;t
the General Staff, I think it is liighly desirable that we should pass it ; there
may be amendments upon it, of course, but I was going to suggest this,
that if we do pass it, I hope the thing will not stop there. My office wiU
be ready to take u.p the details of things and, although we say in the
beginning, " That this Conference, without wishing to commit to immediate
action any of the Governments represented," 1 hope the opportunity may
be taken to follow up all these things we have discussed to-day. Sir Neville
Lyttelton and the rest of us will put aside all other engagements ; we know
you are here and available only for about three weeks more and the most
immediate duty we could fulfil would be to meet and confer with you and
work these things out, so that 1 hope, if the substance of this resolution
is agreed to, we may be able to take some immediate action in fixing in
our minds the precise way to give effect to it and the other things we have
discussed to-day. ,.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Would it be possible, Mr. llaldane, to
modify this resolution — I have not thought of the form of words, but in some
way — by which we would agree to the idea of establishing General Staffs in
each of the Domiinons beyond the Seas, in each of our countries, and then
go on as you put it so that these staffs should be interchangeable with
each other, because I think it is not only desirable that there shoiild
be exchange between the Central Staff and any one of the Colonies,

117

but excliange between the staffs of tlie different Colonies. I do not know
whetlier that is desirable, but I do not like to lose sight of the idea that the
different communities or dominions should have their own general staffs.

CHAIRMAN : Might I suggest this V There is a general expression of
opinion that it would be very desiraWe that the Secretary of State's statement
should be made public, and I understand from him that there is no objection
to that. In the statement, of course, is set forth in full what Sir Frederick
Bortlen has been asking for and perhaps that would be the easiest way of
doing it. There are one or two almost verbal amendments I think that have
been suggested to me in the resolution itself, but otherwise it might stand.
I think perhaps that the Conference might express approval of the Secretary
of State's statement and then it might be recorded in the resolution and
published.

Mr. HATDANE : I think there is nothing in what I have said to-day
that has not been said several times, not only in speeches, but in papers that
liave been published and are in the possession not only of the American
General Staff Ijut I suspect of all General Staffs. They are very well informed
of each others' proceedings and there is no secret in what we have discussed
to-day ; it is a fixing rather of the ideas that have already been given
expression to.

]\Ir. DEAKIN : It seemed to me a digest of the discussions which
have so far proceeded in your Parliament and in your Press.

CHAIRJilAN : You wiU revise it ?

Mr. HALDANE : I will revise it, and I will take care that there is
no expi'ession that can possibly be open to objection.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: The principle, I take it, is the esta-
blishment of an Imperial General Staff".

Mr. HALDANE : That is it.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : We have no Imperial Army.

Mr. HALDANE : No, j'ou have an Army which serves for the defence
of the Empire, and you have the Committee of Imperial Defence.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : I think we are aU agreed that this
should be done, but there may be some of our people, whom we represent,
who may be somewhat sensitive about being committed, as they might
think they were being comiriitted, to something like an obligation.

Mr. HALDANE : You observe the General Staff is a purely advisory
body, and indeed you have done it in Canada just now because you have
a very distinguished General Staff officer, General Lake, who is your own
Staff officer, as any General Staff ofhcer sent under this scheme would
be, — absolutely your own officer at your own disposition.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Precisely, but we have not said much
about it.

Mr. HALDANE : No, your deeds have been better that your words.
You have had General Lake for some time and have been working it up.

E 4SGG8. H 3

Fourth Daj.
20 April 19()7.

Mu.lTARr

Dkpknce.

( Sir Frederick
Hordcii.)

118

Fourth Da), Mr. DEAKIN : I have made a suggestion in tlie last line but tkree

20 April 1907. wMcli would perhaps meet your point, Sir Frederick ; instead of reading :
" without in the least interfering in qviestions connected with command and
d'^^^^^p " administration shall be capable of advising respective Govermuents," and
so on, it should read : " without in the least interfering in questions con-
'■ nected with command and administration shall, at the request of the
" respective Governments, advise as to the training and education."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is important. Will you give me the
words, Mr. Deakin ?

Ih: DEAKIN : After the word " shall " in the fourth line from the
bottom insert the words " at the request of" instead of "be capable of
advising," and it reads on "the respective Governments advise as to the
" training, education, and war organisation of the military forces of the Crown
" in every part of the Empire." That shows what I think was the clear
intention that this staff should work with the respective Governments ; it
is the brain which is to be called upon by any nerve at the extremity and
responds thereto.

Mr. HALDANE : The expert caUed in.

Mr. DEAKIN : Exactly, like the Committee of Imperial Defence ; to
make that clear I propose in the fourth line fi-om the top after the words
"recognises and affirms the need of developing" to insert "for the use of"
instead of " throughout," and then omit the words " the conception of."

Mr. HALDANE : "For the service of the Empire."

Mr. DEAKIN : That is better — " for the service of the Empire a General
Staff recruited " and so on.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : I would say " for the service of the
various Dominions."

Mr. HALDANE : " For the service of the various Governments of the
Empire."

Dr. JAMESON : Why not the Empire by itself ?

Mr. DEAKIN : We make that plain in the last part.

Mr. HALDANE : " For the service of the Empire."

Mr. F. R. MOOR : I think it would be better if instead of " that this
Conference without wishing to con)mit to immediate action " we said " that
"this Conference without committing any of the Governments to immediate
'" action."

Ml-. HALDANE : Yes.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : I think it would be more decided and clear.

Sir JOSEl'Ii WARD : In any case everything we do here has 1o be
ratified by our Governments and Parliaments too.

119
CtlAIRMAN : Yon cannot conunit them. Fouril. Day.

2l> April 19«)7.

Mr. HALDANE : I doubt verj'^ much Avhether these words are necessary.

Dr. SMARTT : I do not tliink we need them in at all ; you might take
out aU the words after " Conference " down to the third line.

Mr. DEAKIX : I agree, l)ut as they have been put in let it stand
as it is.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think it better to let them stand as they

are.

CHAIRMAN : If we adopt the suggestion of using the statement of the
Secretary of State, ought we not to put that in some form into the Resolution,
" That the Conference welcomes aud cordially approves the exposition of
*' general principles embodied in the statement of the Secretaiy of State for
" War."

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am quite agreeable, it is part and parcel of the
motion, really.

Mr. DEAKIN : WiU you put the whole Resolution, sir ?

CHAIRilAN : Then the Resolution would run : " The Conference
" welcomes and cordially approves the exposition of general principles
" embodied in the statement of the Secretary of State for War and
" resolves : That this Conference without wishing to commit to immediate
" action any of the Governments represented at it recognises and allirms
" the need"

Mr. DEAKIN : Is " at it " necessary ?

CHAIRMAN : No, I should think not^" recognises and allirms the need
" of developing a General Staff recruited from the forces of the Empire as a
" whole, which shall be a means of fostering the study of military science in
" the various branches, shall collect and disseminate to the various Govern-
" ments military information and intelligence, and vmdertake the preparation
" of schemes of defence on a conmion principle and without in the least
" interfering in questions connecteil with connnand and administration, shall
" at the request of the respective Governments advise them as to the training,
" education, and war organisation of the military forces of the Crown in
" every part of the Empire."

Dr. SMARTT : " Advise " alone is better.

CHAIRMAN : " Advise." That is the Resolution of the Conference.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think I woidd like to defer this and have a
third reading of this Resolution also, as we had with the former one. I
see nothing to take exception to, but I would like to think it over.

CHAIRMAN : May 1 have the attention of the Conference? Sir Wilfrid
Laurier woidd like to have what we call a third reailing of this Resolution
also, that is to say, that it should not be published until the next meeting,
after it has been seen again.

II J

Military
Defence.

Fourth Day.
20 April 1907.

MlLITAKT

Defence.

120

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would like to look at it on Monday,
although I may say I see nothing to take exception to at present.

Dr. SMARTT : I presume, Lord Elgin, that does not prevent the state-
ment of the Secretary of State for War being published ?

CHAIRMAN : No, we can get that out. There is one Resolution which
is stiH at its third reading, Sir Wilfi'id, with regard to Imperial Defence ; I
think we have practically agreed to it, but Mr. Deakin on that occasion
wanted to see it again. This is how it ran : " That the Colonies be authorised
" to refer to the Committee of Imperial Defence through the Secretary of
" State for advice on any local questions in regard to which expert assistance
" is deemed desirable, and whenever so desired the representative of the
" Colony which may wish for advice will be surmnoned to attend as a member
" of the Committee during the discussion of the questions raised."

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Was that not settled long ago ?

Mr. DEAKIN : I thought so.

CHAIRMAN : I understood it was reserved in the same way as the other
point.

Mr. DEAKIN : I did not imderstand it was reserved, but merely asked
that I shoid-d be allowed to mention it as I have done this morning in
connection with the general question.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : It was settled by the very constitution of
the Imperial Committee itself. Mr. Balfour — whose idea perhaps it was — on
two or three occasions stated very clearly the objects, and I had the honour
myself of attending a meeting of that committee in December 1903, for the
very reason suggested in this Resolution. It hardly seems necessary to make
it a formal resolution.

CHAIRMAN : It was the explanation I gave on behalf of the Prime
Minister at the last meeting and it seemed to be acceptable to the Conference.

Dr. JAMESON : Surely there is no objection to emphasising it further
by passing it now.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : It is a work of supererogation, I think.

Dr. JAMESON : Does it matter ? It was not the case before that the
Committee of Defence could invite a representative of the Colony, whereas now
this goes a little further and says that practically a Colony has the right to be
invited whenever anything in which it is concerned or upon which it has
asked advice is being discussed by the Defence Committee. I think it does
go a little further. •

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It seems to me simply burdening this
Conference with a Resolution about a matter which has always been done.
There need be no expression of opinion by the Conference upon this point.

CHAIRMAN : I am entirely in the hands of the Conference.

Military

UeI- KSCE.

121
Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do not see what it is wanted for. Fourth Day.

20 April 1907.

Mr. HALDANE : I do not think myself, if I may say so, that it is
necessaiy. One is very familiar with the composition of the Committee of
Imperial Defence, which is a skeleton or nncleus body ; I always attend it,
but I am not a standing member of it. It has no fixed composition, but
consists merely of the people who are summoned, and, of course, if any
question arose affecting any particidar Colony, its representative would
attend. The Prime Minister is really the mainspi-ing of the Committee, and
he^summons it as he wants it.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : He summons whomsoever he likes ?

Mr. HALDANE : Whoever he likes and whoever is suitable.

Mr. DEAKIN : We did not feel entitled to suggest that we should
be represented at our own pleasure — we did not feel justified in officially
representing it. Accordingly this Resolution was submitted for the approval
of the British Government and the members of the Conference to the
proposition that in future any representative of a Colony which might wish
for advice shoidd be summoned upon its request to attend as a member of
the Committee during any particular discussion. That gave us not merely
an opportunity of being invited as guests but a right to be present on our
own motion when matters in which we were concerned were under discussion. '
That seems to me a distinct advance.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : You' think that is not included in the
memorandum ?

Mr, DEAKIN : It is included now in March 1907.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think that is a proper thing to do.

Dr. SMARTT: I think it would do a great deal of good. I will
give the Conference a concrete case : — Some time ago the Imperial
Oovernment appointed a Defence Commission to inquire into the defences
of the Empire. They came to Cape Colony and no doubt they inquired into
the defences of the Peninsula, but they did not go into the matter with the
Government in that confidential manner which, I think, if a Resolution of
this sort is carried and approved of by the Imperial Government, would be
the case in the future.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : 1 thought that was included abeady.

CHAIRMAN : Then tliis Resolution may stand. We came to a final Resolution II.,
Resolution also on the question of the constitution of the Conference and V- "•
that, of course, now will be published.

Adjourned to Tuesday next at 11 o'clock.

122

Fifth Day. FIFTH DAY.
23 April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Tuesday, 23rd April 1907.

Present :

The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of State

for the Colonies (President).

The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G-.C.M.G., Prime Minister

of Canada.
The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.]\I.G., Minister of Militia and

Defence (Canada).
The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).
The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Commonwealth

of Australia.
The Honourable Sir William Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of State of

Trade and Customs (Australia).
The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New

Zealand.
The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape Colony.
The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Pubhc Works (Cape

Colony).
The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.
The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of

Newfoimdland.
General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.
Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parbamentary Under-Secretary of

State for the Colonies.
Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary of State

for the Colonies.
Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the Lidia Office.

Mr,
Mr

. H. W Just, C.B C.M.G., | j^-^^^ Secretaries.
. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., )

Mr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

Also present :

The Right Honourable R. B. Haldane, K.C, M.P., Secretary of State

for War.
Colonel G. F. Ellison, C.B., Principal Private Secretary.

and ••

The Right Honourable The Lord Tweedmouth, First Lord of the

Admiralty.
Captain Ottley, M.V.O., R.N., Director of Naval Intelligence.
Mr. W. Graham Greene, C.B., Assistant Secretary to the Admiralty.

123
MILITARY DEFENCE. Fifth Day.

23 April 1907.

CHAIRMAJ!^ : Gentlemen, the first business is to finally approve the
Hesolution on IMilitary Defence which was before the meeting on Saturday Defencr.
last. 1 tinclerslaml that there is some suggestion from Canada.

Sir FREDEI?ICK BORDEN : In the fourth line I would ask whether
the words " to immediate action " do any particular good, and whether they
might not be left out ?

Mr. HALDANE : We thought that might be so. You mean missing out
those words and going on to " any of the Governments " ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Yes.

Mr. HALDANE : I do not think those words mean anything. They look
as if they suggested that there might be immediate action. Shall we strike
out " without wishing to commit to immediate action " ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Simply reading it as " without wishing to
commit any of the Governments."

Mr. HALDANE : Omitting the words " to immediate action."

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Yes.

Dr. JAMESON : Is there any harm in suggesting immediate action ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Is it any good ?

Dr. JAMESON: Y'es, I think it is a kind of fillip towards doing
eomething, and not only talking about it.

Mr. HALDANE : I do not attach importance myself to it, one way or the
other.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: "Without wishing to commit any of the
Governments," I think it should be.

CHAIRMAN : Omit the words " to immediate action." Is that agreed to ?
Mr. F. R. MOOR : I do not think it improves it.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN: Then as to the word "recruited," it
seems to me " recruited " is hardly a word to apply to ofiicers. " Selected "
w^ould, I think, be a better word.

Mr. HALDANE : " Selected " is I think, a more appropriate word to
apply to an officer.

Mr. DEAKIN: Do we gain anything by retaining any of these
words "without wishing to commit to immediate action any of the
Governments represented"? Would it not be advantageous to omit
those words, and possibly substitute some other words for "recognises
and afTirins,"' to indicate clearly the view of the Conference.

124

Fifth Day. Mr. HALDANE : " Is of opinion," for instance.

23 April 1907.
^ Mr. DEAKIN : Something of that sort, safeguarding the statement

'Defence. "without wishing to commit to immediate action." If we agreed to it we

woidd not Avish to commit our Governments to immediate action. We could

not. It is a matter for themselves.

Mr. HALDANE : The Conference is not an executive Conference, and I
shoidd have thought if you omitted those words and put in such words as
"is of opinion" it would make it quite clear that the Conference is
expressing only an opinion.

Mr. DEAKIN: Yes.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It is nothing more than an opinion there.
It is to be left to the different Legislatures to legislate upon.

Mr. DEAKIN : I suggest the omission of these words, and the Resolution
would then rim : " That this Conference welcomes and cordially approves the
" exposition of general principles embodied in the statement of the Secretary
" of State for War and is of opinion that for the service of the Empire a
" General Staif," and so on.

Mr. HALDANE : " Is of opinion that there is a need."

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes ; "Is of opinion that there is a need of developing
throughout the Empire."

Dr. JAMESON : Why substitute " is of opinion " for the more emphatic
" recognises and affirms " ?

Mr. DEAKIN : In order to emphasize the fact that we are not executive
but merely a consultative Conference, and that the governments are the
people to decide. I have no objection to " recognises and affirms," but it
is suggested that it might appear to go a little further than our fimction
warrants.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : We say we are not, of course, committing our
countries to immediate action.

Dr. JAMESON : We are only a conference and cannot do anything.
Why should not we " recognise and affirm " ? They are stronger words, and
I do not see why we should weaken it.

Mr. DEAKIN : I have no objection to " recognises and affirms," but
was endeavouring to meet Sir Frederick Borden's view.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : If the words " to immediate action " are
left out, I am quite satisfied with the rest, and I have no particular objection
then.

CHAIRMAN : It is suggested that the whole sub-sentence from
" without " to " represented " should come out.

125

Sir Wn.FRII) LAUKIER: I would leave it as it is taking out the Fifth D«y.
words "to immediate action" — ^" Avithout wishing to commit any of the 23 April 1907.
Governments " I think is l)etter.

Military

Mr. DEAKIX : We passed it in that form, l)iit if we are altering it I
think it is a great improvement to leave out all those words.

Sir AVILFRip LAURIER: I would takeout ihe words "to immediate
action," and su])stitute " selected " for " recruited."

Mr. IIALDAXR : Yes, that is much better.

Mr. F. R. MOOR: Yes, that has been done.

Sir AVILFRID LAURIER : On this point may I ask for information ?
It is a thing we should know more alioiit. How is this selection to be made ?
Woidd J\lr. Haldane select from the (HiVerent Colonial oflicers in Canada, for
instance ?

^Mr. UALDAXE: Our plan is this. \Ve have a list of persons eligible
for appointment to the (ieneral Staff. If you send over a name and say :
" This is a man we reconnnend to you," we should of course ask you for his
qualifications, and we shoidd ]mt him on the list, and then, arrange \vith you
from the names put (ju the list to select someboily for an appointment in
exchange for somelxnly we scut to you.

Sir FREDERICK RORDKX : I would lik.^ to have it umlerstood, and 1
think this is what is understood really, that where there is a General Staff
now in existence, as there is in Canada, nu^ndjers of that Staff should be
selected to fill appointments on the General Staff.

Mr. HALDAXE : Yes ; you woidd not send people who were not on
yOTir General Staff'.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEX : No.

]\Ir. HALDAXE : Xo. Each country woidd luive its General Staff
organisation, either very nuich developed or rudimentaiy, as it might be, but
you would send people from your Staff, whatever it was.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEX: And there would be no selection, as I
understand, except through the Government of the particular country
interested.

Mr. HALDAXE : That is right. We should take nobody whom you did
not recommend out of your General Staff. None of us would, of course,
bind oiirselves one way or the other ; it would be a matter of convenience and
arrangenuMit ; but we should take over here in the ordinary course naturally
anybody you recommended as being well qualified from your General Staff,
and at your reqxu;st we should send you somebody whom you liked.

126

Fifth Day. Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : And the responsibility for any particular
23 April 1907. officer so selected would continue to the particular Goverument under which
he ^vas serving.

MlLITAKT

Defence.

'My. HALDANE : He Avould be a member of their General Staff detailed

for this general service.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN : Yes, I think that is so. There is oue
word here which it is thought might he improved — " fostering."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I merely make just this suggestion, that
instead of " which shall be the means of fostering the study of military
" science," we should say, " which shall study military science." I do not
care verj^ much which it is.

Mr. HALDANE : Yes, " which shall study military science in all its
" branches." That is qaite as good. If that is agreed to 1 have no criticism
upon it.

Ml-. DEAKIN : I have some abbreviations to suggest.

Mr. HALDANE : Then it will be " which shall study military science
" in all its branches."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I think that is aU, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. DEAKIN : Will Sir Frederick Borden kindly listen to this, and see
if it will not simplify it — " That this Conference," omitting the next two
words, " cordially approving the exposition of general principles embodied in
" the statement of the Secretary of State for War " — omitting the next words
and substituting " recommends to the Governments represented " — omitting
the next words " the need of developing for the service of the Empire a
" General Staff selected from the forces of the Empire." So that it would
read : " That this Conference, cordially approving " — this is all we do —
" the exposition of general principles embodied in the statement of the
" Secretary of State for War, recommends to the Governments represented
" the need of developing for the service of the Empire a General Staff selected
" from the forces." Would that meet your view, Mr. Haldane V

Mr. HALDANE : That meets my view. It is shorter, and I am in favour
of anything that is short.

]\Ii-. DEAKIN : It gets rid of a great many words ; we cordially approve
the exposition of general princi^jles, and recommend to our Governments the
need of developing a general staif.

Mr. HALDANE : "Recommend the desirability" might be better.

Mr. DEAKIN : Very good ; I was only shortening it. It is at present
rather Avinding.

Sir WILFlilD LAURIER : Sometime'^ it is well to have these long
statements, and 1 Avould let it stand as

\"

127

Mr. DEAKIN: At this stage 1 du not press it. .We really accepted it. Fifth Day.
but when one comiiieuces to criticise it is hard ti) stop. ia April 1907.

MlLITABT

Sir WIJ.FRID LAUKIKK: I would like it to stand as it is, with the Uehs.nce.

two short amendments we have made.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEX : Put in " selected " instead of " recruited,"
and leaA'e out the words " to inuuediate action," and leave out the word
"fostering."

CHAIRMAN: Then it reads: "That this Conference welcomes and

" cordially a])proves the exposition of general principles eml)odied in the

" statement of the Secretary of State for War, and without wishing to commit

" any of the Governments represented, recognises and alhrms the need of

" developing, for the service of the Empire, a General Staff, selected from the

" forces of the Empire as a Avhole, which shall study militan- science in

" all its branches," and soon.

I)r. S!\1ARTT : Surely that does not meet the case? i understood the
feeling ^\■as that some of the Governments represented hei'e might not be able
to take part in this at once. Consequently the Secretary of State for AVar
very wisely pul in " without wishing to commit to immediate action." But
really we are now going to pass a resolution under which certain of the
Governments will not l)e ctommitted to anything except passing a pui-e
opinion. They do not even conunit themselves to act upon it in the near
future, nor even in ihe distant future.

^Ir. IIALDAXI'", : liut having agreed ujiun the broad [irinciple, we
should now proceed to communicate with j^ou with a view to seeing what
you could do to carry this cmt, and as we are all of one mind we shall at least
all approach the thing from a common point of Adew. We would take the
first action in making suggestions to you for your consideration.

Dr. SMARTT : Then woidd not it be better to leave it as ,you worded it,
" without wishing to commit to immediate action, recognises and alHrms the
principle of establishing."

Mr. HALDANE : 1 do not think the words make nuich difference ; but
the point is, we have agreed on a general principle. That is the real
importance of it. We coidd not l)ind or force any Government, nor do we
want to. This is a deliberating Conference.

Dr. SMARTT : We do not force the Government, but we come to a
conclusion as to the necessity of it as quickly as possible. That is what I
want to see atiirmetl in the Resolution.

Ml-. 1 lALDANE : Do you think you add anything by putting in the
words V

Sir JOSEPH ^^'AR^) : You would not help it for\\ard in any way by
putting in " committing to inmiediate action." It would not get over the
suggestion you are making as to any Government not taking action.

128

Fifth Day. Dr. SMARTT : No, but it would really appear from tlie Resolution that,

23 April 1907. so far as possible, we were all desirous of inxaiediate action and of this matter
not being delayed.

MlLlTAKY

Defence.

Sir_ FREDERICK BORDEN : But we recognise and affirm tlie need for
developing. What more can we do beyond that ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : So far as New Zealand is concerned, as soon
as the Secretary of State for War communicates with ns we will consider any
proposals and deal with them.

Mr. HALDANE : By getting rid of the words " to immediate action "
we have got rid of the suggestion that it is not to be immediate action.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: Quite so.

CHAIRMAN : Then the Resolution is to stand.

Resoiiition III.
p. V.

The Resolution, as amended, was carried unanimously.

Naval Defence.

NAVAL DEFENCE.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we now proceed to consider Naval Defence,
and we have on the agenda two resolutions, one from the Commonwealth
of Australia and one from New Zealand, and perhaps the most convenient
course would be to proceed as we did the other day, that is to ask those who
represent those two Colonies to first state their views. WiU Mr. Deakin Ije
ready to open it ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Before Lord Tweedmouth speaks ?

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Whichever you like.

Mr. DEAKIN : Perhaps you would wish to indicate generally the policy
of the Admiralty. As I take it, this is not merely a disciission on Naval
Defence for New Zealand and Australia. Incidentally we liave a special
interest to consider, because we have an Act upon our Statute books, and
the qiiestion of amending that i^ct by addition or variation is a subject which
concerns us a great deal more than anybody else. But we have assembled
fii'st to take a general view of Naval Defence, and to be made acquainted
with the policy of the British Government, presenting questions of great
interest for the whole Conference. Incidentally one of these deals with the
particular agreement relating to New Zealand and Australia. I do not know
whether Sir Joseph Ward agrees.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, I agree ; T think it would be most valuable
to hear the opinions of Lord Tweedmouth.

Lord I'WEEDMOUTII : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, I feel it a high
privilege to sit at this tal)le to discuss this matter with the Prime Ministers

129

of tlio solf-frovoniino; doiniiiions of tlio Kin^i: heyond the seas. IMy position, Fifth Dhv.
of course, is ratlicr a (iilVciTiit one frdiii llial of my c-olloafjuc and ^ood friend 2:? April 1907.

Mr. Haldane. As I nndcrslanil, he gave you a vivitl and interesting sketch .

of the new system of organisation of the Army, and explained to you how ^•*^'^'- ^^rrr-^CE.
that new scheme might he adapteil to your Colonial wants ami wishes. ^ly ^Y"^''

position is quite a ditVerent one. I c-annot offer any sketch. I rather lay weodmonih.)
before you a completed picture. Our history undoul)tedly is closely
intertwined with the history of the Naval Service from earliest days,
and though it is the fact, no doubt, that fnjm time to time we have met with
reverses and we have met with accidents, yet, on the wliole, from tlie earliest
days to tlie present moment the Xavy has been aide to defend the
country, (o ilefcnd tlie growing country, that is the Kmpire as a whole,
and 1 lid not tiiiid; tliat any charge can be brought against it ol'
ever, on any occasion, having failed. Well, gentlemen, that being the case,
what 1 have in the first place to ask is, that yon should place conildence in
the Board of Ailniiralty, and in the present Ciovernment, for the future safety
of the country. We welcome you, and we ask you to take some leading part
in making more complet(> than it is at present the naval defence of the Empire.
1 wish to recognise all that our cousins over the sea have done in conse-
quence of decisions of former Conferences. 1 know that you gave to the
CTOvernment and to the Admiralty, with a free and unstinting hand, the help
that you thought you could manage to give, (lentlemen, 1 have only one
reservation to make, and in making it I ask that, as we have proved our-
selves siiccessful in the past, you shoxdd put your trust in us now. The only.
reservation that the Admiralty desire to make is, that they claim to have
the charge of the strategical tpiestions which are necessarily iuvolvetl in
Naval Defence, to hold tlie command of the naval forces of the country,
and to arrange the distribution of ships in the best possible manner to
resist attacks and to defend the lOmpire at lai'ge, whether it be our own
islands or tlie dominions bej'ond the seas. We thoroughly recognise that
we are responsible for that defence. AVe want you to help us in that
defence. We want you to give us all the assistance you can, but we do not
come to you as beggars ; we gladly take all that you can give us, but at the
same time, if yon are not inclined to give us the help that we hope to have
from you, we acknowledge our aljsolute ol)ligation to defend the King's
dominions across the seas to the best of our ability.

Now, there is, aft«u- all, only one sea that laps around all our shores.
The sea is the link that joins us together. It was the reason of your up-
springing. It is our iirst defence. It is the origin of our great commerce.
It is the oullet and iidet of our exports and our imports, and it is to us
in these islands the channel through which we get the food and raw
material which are so necessary to our vast population There is one sea,
there is one Em])ire, and there is one Xavy, and I want to claim in the
Iirst place your help, and in the second place authority lor the .Xdiniralty
to manage this great service without restraint. How great a ])art tlie sea
takes in all our life, in all our jirosperity, is, 1 think, best seen from the
extraordinary amount of sliipj)ing that our coimtry puts out. Last year, in
1906, Great Britain's output of shipping amounted to no less than 1,930,71)3
tons. The United States had an output of 48(i,(»5() tons; Cermany,
38-1,(514 tons, and France, 08,502 tons. The output of all foreign nations
amounted to 1,319,900 tons, so that last year Great Hritain led by no less
than (ll 0,803 tons all the other nations in the world.

Mr. DKAKIX : Is that new shipping?

Lord TWEEDMOUTll: Xew shipping.

A IHC.Og. 1

Naval Dkkexce.

130
Fifth Day. Mr. DEAKIN : Commercial shipping only ?

23 April 1907.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: No; it includes ^varships. I think in the
British Return there were abont 108,000 tons of warships. But with that
enormous interest in the sea and in the shipping that goes on the sea, it is
absolutely necessary that we should make the passage of that shipping across
the sea safe. That is what we aim at securing, and that is what we ask your
help in doing.

Mr. DEAKIN : Pardon me for interrupting, Init when you. speak about
British shipping, does that include shipping constructed in other parts of the
Empire, or only in the United Kingdom V

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : That is within the United Kingdom.

Mr. DEAKIN : The total of the construction in the various Colonies is
small ?

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : It is not very large. It amounted last year to
abont 26,000 tons. I have here a statement of the subsidies which in the
past have been given bv the various Colonies. Australia gives 200,000L ;
New Zealand, 40,0001. ; Cape Colony, 50,000?. ; Natal, 35,000L ; Newfound-
land, 3,000?,. ; in all 328,000?.

Gentlemen, what I have to say is that the Admiralty and His Majesty's
Government are perfectly ready to meet these contributors to Admiralty
funds in a liberal and conciliatory manner. We do not wish to insist that
the contributions from the Colonies should necessarily be in the form only
of money. We are quite ready to enter into any arrangements with the
Colonies that may seem most suitable to them, and which may seem to bring
advantage to the Navy, and advantage to the Colonies themselves. I have
here drawn up a short statement of what may be called the general principle
with whicli the Admiralty desire to meet the representatives of the self-
governing Dominions of the King l3eyoud the seas. His Majestj^'s Government
recognise the natural desire of the self-governing Colonies to have a more
particular share in providing the naval defence force of the Empire, and,
so long as the condition of imity of command and direction of the fleet
is maintained, they are ready to consider a modihcation of the existing
arrangements to meet the views of the various Colonies. In the opinion of the
Government, while the distribution of the fleet must be determined by
strategical requirements of which the Admiralty are the judge, it would be of
great assistance if the Colonial Governments would undertake to provide for
local service in the Imperial squadrons the smaller vessels that are useful for
defence against possible raids or iV)r co-operation with a squadron, and also to
equip and maintain docks and fitting establishments which can be used by
His Majesty's ships. It will ftirther he of much assistance if coaling facilities
are provided, and arrangements can Ije made for a supply of coal and naval
stores which otherwise would have to be sent out specially or purchased
locally.

1 understand that, in Australia particularly, and in South Al'rica,_it is
desired to start some naval service of your own. I'erhaps I might siTggest
that if the provision of the smaller craft which are necessarily incident to the
wcjrk of a great fleet of modern battleships could be made locally, it would
be a very great help to the general work of the Navy. You cannot take
the small craft such as torpedo boats and sidnnarines across the.- ocean, and
for warships to arrive in South Africa or in Australia or in New Zealand or
in Canada, and lind ready to their hand weU-trained men in good vessels

131

of this kind, would be an onornions advantage to them. It would I)e an Fifth Day.

enoniiuus advantage to lincl ready to tlieir hand men well trained, ready to 2.'i Ai>ril UH)7.

take a part in the work of the fleet. There is, I think, tlie further ailvantage

in these small flotillas, that they will I)e an admiralile means of coast ilefenee ; -"^'a^*'' Defence.
that you will l)e ahli' l»y the use of tiieni to avoid practically all danger from . .^Y*"^"' > ^

any sudden raid which might be made by a cruising squadron. What I should
like to point out is that, above all things in this work, the submarine if
probably the most important and the most elVective weapon. It is the
weapon with which you can meet a fleet attacking during the day, or indi-
vidual ships attaiddng by day. I am assured by my advisers at the Admiralty
that it is a most im])ortant weapon ; that it has already reached very con-
siderable development ; and it is one on which we may rely with great
confidence. That is a view that is very strongly taken by some of the
leading hkmi in the Frencli Navy, who think that the submarine is really
the weapon of the future. I believe myself that the provision of submarines
and all the smaller torpedo destroyers and l)oats would be of the greatest
help to the Navy, supposing it were, as T hope it may not be, drawn into a
war abroad.

We want to consult with you as to the details of this scheme. Of coui'se
if each separate colony is to i)e treated on a different footing, we are quite
ready to do that and to make separate arrangements with each separate
('olony according to its own wishes. I thoroughly recognise the great
(lilfi'rence that there is between the conditions of one country and another.
The desire of the Admiralty is to meet those wishes so far as they possilily
can be met. I think perhaps it is im]iossible suddenly to make a change.
I would suggest that a beginning should be made, and that probably the
best way to start would be to allocate to local purposes certain portions
of the subsidies already given. The particular purposes \o which that
money should he devoted should be discussed in detail between the
representatives of the various Colonies and the Ailmiralty, so that a
thoroughly good scheme might lie worked out in the end. At the same time
we do not put aside the payment of the subsidies at all. From those
Colonies who are desirous of continuing altogether on the lines on which
they have gone in th(> past, we shall be very glad to accept their contribution,
anci accept it gratefully, and do the best to apply the money in a useful
manner.

Then I should like to say a single word on the further point of the
provision of docks and coaling facilities in the Colonies. The enormous
development of the modern warship entails important consequences. These
great modern warships require large docks to contain them. 1 think we are
getting on well with the ju-ovision of docks. At this moment in our own
country and abroad we have, I think, 13 Covernment docks which will take
in our'largest ship, the "Ih-eadnought." 1 think in the course_of the next
two years we shall have four more, which will make about 17 altogether.
But it is very desirable that Ave should have in all jnirts of the world docks
which couhi take such great ships, supposing they were to meet with
an accident or were to receive ilamage in war. I do not know whether
Sir Wilfrid Laurier wouhl consider that there might be some chance of
Canada doing that in Ksquimalt and Halifax, which have now been handed
over to tiie Canadian people. We have already a dock at Simons Bay
which will take a " Dreadnought," hut all through the Enqure it would be
a great thing to tind big docks at hand in the event of any accident or
damage that Tnight happen to a ship. It is the same thing with regard to
coal. ^Coal is the life of a mod.Mii warship. It is an absolute necessity.
There are great dithculties in getting it. We are better olf, n() doubt, than
other Powers in that respect because we have coaling stations already
scattered here and tliere over the whole world, and now there are many new

1 2

132

Fifth Day.
23 April 1907.

Naval Defence.

(Lord
Tweedmouth.)

inventions and new developments in methods of coaling on the sea and at the
coaling depots. But it is a subject to which I should lil^e t(3 direct the
attention of the Prime Ministers as one of the things which are of the greatest
use to a fleet at sea.

Gentlemen, I have come to you absolutely frankly to tell you how we
hope to be able to meet you. I am anxious to hear Avhat the representatives
of the various Colonies waut to do. They have already put forward two
resolutions, and I think it would be well that I should hear what they have to
saj% and I should also like to be made aware of what the representatives of
each Colony think as to how far they could meet the suggestions that I have
ventured to make.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Will you iirst call upon Australia and New
Zealand, as they have proposed resolutions ?

Mr. DEAKIN : The resolutions of Australia and New Zealand, after all,
are quite subsidiary to the main principles on which his Lordship has
addressed us. Speaking for myself, may I say that I quite appreciate the
frankness Avith which your Lordship has approached the subject, and the
light yon have thrown upon it. I am not sui-j^rised at the attitude of
the Government, because I have sufficient familiarity with the references
which you and also your colleagues have made to this great subject, Init at
the same time must admit my own want of competence to deal off-hand with
the major questions which you have raised, either directly or by necessary
imijlication — they are of the first importance — without some little further
consideration.

The main views you have submitted, so far as I have followed them,
relate to the question of Colonial co-operation in the Naval Defence of the
Empire. This divides itself into two parts : first, a provision for local
defence, which again divides itself into the defence which is to be used, so to
speak, by the h.^calised bodies or other agencies, and next the localised
Imperial Sqiuvdrous, if I may distinguish them by that title. IBeyond these
local defences comes the question of the possibility of a general defence not
localised, upon an Imperial scale, whose obligations would be adapted to the
varying circumstances of the different parts of the Empire — varying as
between themselves, and varying again from those of the United Kingdom.
Any consideration I have ever been able to give to this question has led
me to the reluctant conclusion that so far we are unable to find any scheme
of the measure of responsibility either particular or general. I would be very
glad to be enlightened xipon this subject. None of the assessments and
estimates made for the purpose have appeared to me to include all the factors
to be taken into account, or to have furnished anything like an exact proportion
between them. Those are the main issues, as I follow them, which are
inseparably associated with the scheme that you have submitted very clearly
to us. Afterwards, when we have considered such general questions of
contribution and co-operation, the matter which particularly interests New
Zealand and ourselves, is as to the local form of that co-operatiou. Australia's
responsibility is now fixed on a monetary standard, and we submit that tliis
is not the most acceptable standard for Australia, nor is it likely to further
the objects that we have, or the objects that you have, iu maintaining the
present contribution. But that, as already stated, is a subsidiary question.

The larger principle of the relations which self-governing Colonies should
hold to the Imperial Naval Defence should first come imder consideration,
because that is tiie major premise of Avhich the form of any contribution is
after all only a mmor matter. I must confess myself quite unable to criticise
witli sufficient pertinency the larger principle of this question at this moment.

133

There are otliers here not under my disaltility- I'm- instance, ^Mr. Hrodeur, who Fifth Day.
represents the Xaval Department oC Canada, but so far as 1 am concerned •_'.•{ A i-ril 1907.

I wish time Tor I'urther consideration.

Let me, however, by way of addition mention one matter wliich arose out ^'-*^*'- lir.KEscE.
of the address of your colleague, the Secretary of State for War, alfectinp: the *^''- l'<-»ki"-)
possibilities of the development of local supplies of annnunition within the
(Joramonwealth. These are a necessity in most States, but of far greater
urgency in Australia than elsewhere. We desire to see established cordite
and ammunition factories Avhich should be sufficient for our own wants,
These wants in time of peace are necessarily very small, while in time of war.
with the possiliitity of interruption of communications, they would be very
large. ()ur dilliculty, therefore, is to face the cost of' eslal>lishing or
subsidising factories for the manufacture of this annnunition within our own
borders, because of that enormous difference between the regular demand ujion
the factories and their macliinery and the extraordinary demand for wliich
they ought to be equipped to some extent. Possibly in the matter of
cordite annnunition for small arms, we do not see much dilliculty. We
think we can establish a factory which would meet our wants fully in
peace, and reasonably in war, keeping reserves always in hand. Hut if we
could enlarge the scopt» so as to supply the squadron or s([u;idron.- in
our seas with, at all events, pari of the annnunition and the cordite they
recjuire, that would enable us to conduct that factory on a much larger scale.
It is not a desire to make a profit out of supplying the naval wants, but
simplj' to keep the factory going on a greater scale, and enlarge its capacitj'
so that it might be less inadequate in time of war. ( )f course we recognise the
great dithculty in the testing of this cordite, which is now very elaborately
carried out with a great lunnber of guns of different types. It is necessary to
test the cordite for a gun of a i)articular type in a gun of that type, but as it
happens, at the present time that need not i)e an insuperable objection, because
we have quite a variety of guns in Australia, many more types than we
ought to have had, since they have not conferred upon us that ilefensive
strength which we should have enjoyed if we had been limited to a few types.
Opinions have varied in the Admiralty and War Ollice, as they must vary
from time to time, and Ave have had the fall effect of the variations.
However, imder the circumstances, the report of the Committee of Imperial
Defence advises us to lay aside quite a nundjer of these guns, and thej'
are of the same types, or sufficiently near to the types of gmis, which we
would require for testing purposes. Now, until those guns are worn out —
and then the question of supplying them might be a more serious matter —
they would perhaps suffice for the application of tests. We would be able at
least to commenc(> with them. I am not pressing for an answer to-day. I
have expressed already my iiudjilit}' to cope off-hand with the great questions
you have raised, without more time for consideration. Nor would 1 ask for a
reply on this point until we have told you Avhat we can otter. In making
this proposition for the supply of annnunition we do not expect that the
Imperial Navy should accept from iis cordite or any other supplies any less
efficiently tested than they are here. We accept that.

Lord TWEED.MorTll : It would be absolutely necessary that we
should test the cordite in the most effective manner.

Mr. DEAKIN : Absolutely necessary.

Lord TWKKD.MOUTH: There is another thing to be remembered, that
as far as our knowledge at present goes of cordite, or a large class of cordite
at any rate, provided it is kept at a low temperature under 60 degrees its life
is very long — certainly (JO or 70 years— whereas when it is long affected by
a high temperature it goes bad.

A 486G8. I 3

134

Fifth Day. Mr. DEAKTN : I am aware of that. Of course that estimate of the very

23 April 1907. long life of cordite is still theoretical, because there has beeu no cordite

of that character for 60 or 70 years, though all tlie scieutilic calculations

Naval Dei-uxce. pQJj-^|; [ly^^ way. We see no difficulty in the conditions of temperature. If
we make cordite "we must fultil those conditions ; if we do not fulhl them we
cannot do business. We do not look for mere profit. To sell you an inferior
explosive for the protection of our own shores and shipping would be
short-sighted economy ; but on the assumption that we are able to satisfy
you as to tests and storage, it would, or might, make a considerable ditt'erence
to us even if we had only the supplying of certain portions .of the annual
ordinarj^ consiunption of the squadrons in the Indian, China, and Australian
seas, the present area within ^vhich our squadron operates. It would be
inexcusable to bring forward a detail of this kind, were it not to give you
the opportunity of consulting your officers iu the hope that you may in some
way or other help us to improve our means of ammunition supply, which
would then be available for your squadrons iu all grave emergencies. Other
members of the Conference more competent than myself should cope with the
great questions raised. We should have an opportunity of seeing your remarks
in print. They most decidedly are serious enough for much consideration.
Clear as is your exposition, it raises so many matters of moment to us that,
to treat them as they deseiwe, more time for reflection and more detail would
be required. I therefore do not touch on the question of coaling or the
variety of other interesting problems suggested.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Lord Elgin, and Gentlemen, — I begin by saying
that the value to the different countries — I speak, of course, specially for the
one tliat I represent — of having an opportunity of hearing the views of Lord
Tweedmouth, as First Lord of the Admiralty, to whom we look as the head of
the Naval Branch, is very important indeed. I want to convey for New
Zealand my concurrence in the expressions that Lord Tweedmouth has given
utterance to, that we should have confidence iu the Board of Admiralty and in
the British Government in connection with the Navy. I subscribe to that
absolutely. The people in our cormtry believe — and, of course, I am speaking
on behalf of the peoi)le of our country — that the great interests, enormous as
they are, extending throughout the Empire, must of necessity receive tirst
consideration at the hands of the Board of Admiralty and of the British
Government of the day. I am very glad indeed to hear Lord Tweedmouth
say that it is his desire to make the position of the Empire more secure
than it is at present. That great object is at the bottom of the representation
that the Colonies have here in connection with Defence matters. We
want to assist as far as we can in making our general position stronger and
more secure than it is at present, thougli it is happily very strong indeed.
I want to say that I fully endorse the view expressed by Lord Tweedmouth,
that there is but one sea around our shores, and that with one sea and
one Empire, there should iu reality be but one Navy. The outcome of
deliberations such as we are engaged in now, should be to place both
ships and the disposition of the ships, and the distribution of the ships
and the whole question of strategical work, entirely imder the control of
those at the pulse of the Empire — London ; who are responsible in the time
of war for the working out of any engagements that may take place f©r the
purpose of common defence. In any lielp that New Zealand may be able to
give towards the building up of a stronger position, that main principle
should be recognised, and will be, certainly by my Colony. We regard the
custodians of the Navy, the Board of Admiralty, as those who, being at the
seat or pulse of the Empire, are the authorities in times of Avar to govern the
Navy. We also recognise that they are responsible for the defence of our
commerce on the seas, either iu our part of the world or elsewhere, which

136

Lord Tweedinouth has rcl'tMTod to. l[o\v far we can help iu a suhsifliary P'ifth Day.
or supporting manner, wliich we will readily do, is a question to be decided 23 April 1907.
upon ill conjunction with the Home Government The details will certainly "—

be improved as the result of this Conference. Naval Dekescb

I am prepared to cordially co-operate with Mr. Deakin as the represen- . i u- rrf i
tative of the Conmionwealth of Australia in helping him to attain whatever
his country conceives to be desirabh; for tlu^ purpose of earrying on the
great work of the defence of that portion of the Empire. I was very glad to
hear Lord Tweedmouth say that different countries could be treated, and he
was prepared to have them treated, in different ways. In some respects we
naay require totally ilill'eront treatment, while in the main co-operating to
effectuate a strong position generally. It is important, from the view wliich
I take of our country, to briefly indicate what the position of New Zealand
is, and its difference in some re.spects from the ("omniouwcaltli of Australia
and the great Dominion of Canada and (Jreat Britain itself, which is so
important a part of this great organisation. Our country is comparatively
young ; under 70 years of age. We have before the people in New
Zealand still the work of the interior development of a comitry which
in the years to come will he capable of carrying 20,1 )( )0,( )()() of people
without any difficulty. We have under one million of population at the
moment. We have all the ramifications of the development of great public
works, so essential as a provision for the future to enalile peojih; to settle
in the interior of our country. We have still before us the making of the
railways throughout our country. Though we have between two and three
thousand miles of railways open to-day, it is comparatively speaking but the
fringe of what the future years will require to have estaljlished in the
country in order to meet the requirements of its people. That is one aspect
of the matter which any young country such as the one I represent, with its
future all before it. has to very seriously consider. Whilst anxious t<» help
the Old World and the other portions of the Empire in making a system
of connnon defence upon both land and the seas, the all-importance of
which we recognise to the fullest possible extent, we have still to keep
before us, as a young country, the fact that in the future many millions of
money will be required for the country itself to carry o\it great undertakings
that in the Old World have been carried out, many of them, such for
instance as your railways, by private enterprise. In our country those imder-
takings of great public utility are not carried out on the basis of private
enterprise, l)ut by the State. That work must devolve in the future very
largely upon the State. It is because of the fact that we have these
great undertakings that may take years to fulfil in the future before us
that we should hesitate to impose upon ourselves the burden of the con-
struction of ships of war, or of any great liabilities connected with the
maintenance of ships of war, or any g:-eat financial responsibilities other
than we actually connnit ourselves to in a delined agreement. In the
meantime we caiinot see our way to undertake this possibly heavy financial
responsibility side 1)y side with the great development policy which is very
important to New Zealand, as its success is to the Old World from the point
of view of the aspects of trade, and from the potentiality of the settlement
of British people within our borders— important also from any dh-eetion
which one could name. It is for these reasons, in lu-ief, that New Zealand
hesitates to embark upon so great an imdertaking, in favour of which there
is a vast auuumt to be said, as establishing a local fleet for the purpose
of local delenee, with the attendant repairing and large .loekage accommo-
dation such as has been referred to by Lord Tweedmouth. W(^ hav.N with
a comparatively small population, to consider the position from a practical
standpoint, and to se(^ how far we can go in the direction of co-operaling
in a practical way with the larger scheme suggested in the observations made
by Lord Tweedmouth.

I 4

136

Fifth Day. I want to say that the statement made that the Admiralty is prepared

23 April 1907. to meet, the colonies in a liberal and conciliatory manner, and if necessary

not npon a money basis only, is a matter which is deserving of the

Naval Defence. f^Hest consideration at the hands of the country I represent. I desire
(Si'', also to make it quite clear that I do not say that in any future agreement

Joseph Waril.) ^^^ make for our country Ave should give a money contribution
only to assist in the up-keep and maintenance of our portion of the
Navy. I gathered from the observations of Lord Tweedmouth that the
British Covernment is prepared to entertain a manning proposal. Whatever
is the maximiim amount Ave may elect and agree to contribute — and I
may say at once Ave are prepared to give more than the 4O,()00L a year
that Ave are now giving — if that is converted into a proposal for the manning
of ships and the paying for the manning of those ships in oiir portion of the
Avorld, still leaving them at the full disposition of the British Admiralty
even though Ave pay for the full manning of them, I am quite prepared
to consider Avhether we should not undertake to relieve the central
authority of difficulties Avhich noAV arise in connection Avith the manning
of our ships, such as having tAvo rates of pay for the crews, and Avhether
we should not man them completely at one rate of colonial pay, outside,
of course, the Imperial officers required to control them, AAdaich I presume
would be necessary, under the direction of the Navy. I am quite prepared
to consider for our Colony Avhether we should not change our contribution
from a maximum amount into an amount to be expended on the manning of
the ships Avhich the Admiralty may think it desirable to keep in our Avaters.

With regard also to the suggestion made by Mr. Deakin of the
necessity for further consideration after Ave have seen in print the important
speech delivered by Lord TAveedmouth, I Avant to reserve final judgment
upon the great issues involved until one has had that further time to consider
it. But I think this is too important to allow it to pass in the lirst instance
Avithout saying a Avord or tAvo upon certain aspects of it Avhich struck me as
Lord Tweedmouth placed them before us. The method of putting smaller
ships out in our Avaters than those required at home and other places abroad
is one I take no exception to whatever. One recognises the principle that in
times of Avarfare the Avhole strategical work and the Avhole disposition of
the ships is to be under the control of the Admiralty, and that they,
ATith the various classes of ships in the different portions of the Empire, Avill
use their greater ones wherever required, and also that they may either
elect to keep for the purpose of local defence the smaller subsidiary vessels
such as Ave have in our country, or to call them somewhere else to assist in
times of stress. Upon this question, however, I want to say that if it Avere
possibly in any scheme AA'hich the Board of Admiralty and the British Govern-
ment lay down to have some unification, even although Ave changed our
contribution to one of paying for the actual manning of vessels, it would in
my judgment be very much better from the standpoint of Ncav Zealand to
have that uniformity, Avhether Australia carries it out upon its OAvn account
or whether Ave remain attached to the British Navy entirely. That uniformity
of system Avould, I think, add A^ery materially to the swift and practical
Avorking of the Navy in times of troidile.

Lord Tweedmouth suggested that the Colonial C(jvernments sljould
equip and niaintahi docks for use by His Majesty's ships. Upon that heading
I agree Avith llic principle suggested, but of coui'se there must be a iiniit to a
proposal of that kind as far as New Zealand goes. Already we have
co-operated with the Achniralty, and Ave have at least one of the docks in om-
country Avhich is capable of taking, I think I am right in saying, any of the
sliips that are out in our Avaters — that is the splendid Calliope dock in
Auckland. Within the next few years we shall have a very large dock
iiiiislied at the port of Wellington, Avhich will also be capable of accommodating

137

any o£ the ships likely to he retaiufd in our waters ; and we have two other Fifth Dav.
large docks in New Zealand aheady, one at Lyttelton and one at Port 23 April 1907.

Chalmers, where there is also a second autl larger one now l)eiug built. I .

foresee one possibility, and that is, if an Australian Squadron were to ^■^^'*-^ Uekence.

be kept out in our waters, and our existing docks, or the ilocks about to '''^''..

be constructed, were not of sufficient length lo cover the ships out there, we ''""'•''' *^ ""■''•)

should l)e placed in a very awkward position if the duty were cast upon us

of equipping anti niaiulaining tiiose docks eutirely, and for tiiis reason :

we have a different nu'thod of initiating and carrying out the construction

of docks in Xew Zealand to what exists in the ()"ld Country. We have what

are known as Harbour Boanis, and in one case a Dock Trust, elected by

the people from dilferent portions of the district, and upon which some

Government nominees are apixiinted for the purpose of looking after the

general interests oC tlie harbours and clocks of Xew Zealand. There are two

possibilities that may arise about this suggestion, and I make it in order

that the point may be further considered as to wliether the Admiralty should

not define what is to be the dock of the future in our waters so far as

capacity goes for the berthing of these ships. Take the case of Wellington.

If they finish a dock GOO feet long in the course of 18 months, British ships

may be sent out to our country 050 feet long. I am not giving GOO feet as

the length of the Wellington dock, as it may, and I think is to be, much

longer. I am giving an illustratif)n only. It is a good tiling to encourage

in our country the providing of suitable docks for repairing and meeting

the requirements of ships in view of any time of trouble, if we should ever

have trouble out in our waters, though I very much doubt it. I think the

settlement of the troul)les of the Empire, whenever they arise, will be far

distant from the colonies. If an opponent of the British Empire wanted

to settle the question of who is to be supreme upon the seas, or who is to

take, if they can, any portion of the British Empire, it is hardly conceivable

that they would come out to our waters to settle questions of that kinil,

though New Zealand itself is too valuable to neglect in any way local

defence. I do not want to raise questions which might be lookeil upon as

troublesome, but we do fear some of the eastern countries, whose teeming

millions, so close to Australia and Xew Zealand as they are, under an

educational process in the years to come may find the attractions of our

countrj^ sufficient to induce them to give ns some trouble. 1 think, in any

arrangements we make with the xVdmiralty for our defence upon the seas

in the common intei'ests of the Empire as a whole, if we are to make that

arrangement of a practical nature — and the people of our country are only

too anxious to help — this all-important question of equipping, maintaining,

and providing docks should be considered upon a practical liasis, and the

Admiralty itself might convej^ to us, for our information, what length of

dock for ships in our waters may in their judgment in the future be

required. I may say that, under the system of constructing harbour board

docks in Xew Zealand, we would go a long way towards meeting the

requirements of the Admiralty in the different parts of the Colony.

I wish to say one word about this question of coaling. The Xew
Zealand Government has seen its responsibilities connected with coaling in
our country for a nundier of years. I think at the moment, in round figures,
we have either provitled for or guaranteed the debentures to enable some of
our w^est coast ports in Xew Zealand to be first-class coaling places for the
purpose of the exportation of coal, and we have done so to the extent of over
lialf a million of money. 1 listened to that portion of the observations of
Lord Tweedmouth with special interest. In our country special facilities at
Westport and Greymouth could be provided of a very satisfactory kind, and
they certainly could be provided in Australia at the Port of Xewcastle ;
a harbour for the largest ships in the world could be provided at

138

Fifth Day.
23 April 1907.

Naval Defence.

(Sir
Josepli Ward.)

a plat-e called Point Elizaljeth near Greynioutli, and the finest coal in the
world could there be put aboard ships loading down to any ordinary
draught. If we can arrive, as I hope may Ije the case, at some system of
meeting the local sentiments of these self-governing countries as to how
those ships, under the control and disposition of the Board of Admiralty
always, should be equipped and manned, ^ think the coaling matter is of
sufficient importance to enable us to probably arrive at a basis which in
the course of a year or so we might be able to put into practical shape.
I want to take this opportunit}^ of saying to Lord Tweedmouth that the
difficult}' which] has presented itself by having two rates of pay on board
the ships in our waters is one that we cannot lose sight of in considering this
matter with a view to having it ])laced upon a better basis. The rates of pay
generally in the Colonies are higher than they are in the old world. In order to
meet the natural sentiment of the people there the Admiralty have, with wry
great consideration, in the past agreed to a dual system of pay on board
those ships. Under that differentiation of pay there naturally must arise a
certain amount of friction and dissatisfaction, especially on the part of a man
who is Avorking side hj side with his fellow on board any of the ships who is
receiving a much lower rate of pay than the Australian or New Zealander is.
That statement seems to me to emphasise the great importance and
desirablity of these vessels being manned entirely, so far as the crews
are concerned, from the Colony itself, and probably a rate of pay could
be fixed by Avhicli they could he borne in suificient numbers to meet the
position now filled liy a portion of the men being drawn from the old land,
and a portion from the new laud. In any case, if it cannot be arranged in
the waj' I am endeavouring to suggest, New Zealand will be quite prepared
to have what I know has been talked of and referred to in despatches, the
system of deferred pay for our men put into operation, so that they may
draw the same rate of pay as the British men on board those vessels until
the time came for paying them oif, when that deferred pay would )je paid
out to them. I need not, because it must be very familiar to Lord
Tweedmouth and those associated Avith him, refer to the troubles which
arise owing to the higher class of pay being paid to the men in these
places now.

I want to make it clear upon the details of any scheme for the
betterment of the Navy and for the more effective working of it, that I
should be only too glad with my friend Mr. Deakin and any of the other
gentlemen here to have an opportunity of conferi'ing Avith those avIio are
responsible and Avith Lord Tweedmoutli, who has made such valuable
suggestions to ns to-daA'.

I will not take up the time of the Conference further at present upon
tills matter. I have a great deal of detailed information in my possession.
I lioi)e as the outcome of the ('onference that Ave are having with the
responsible representatives of the l^oard of Adnuralty and the British
Government here, that if each Colony Avislies separate treatment, as has
been referrc^d to by l^u'd Tweedmouth, we will get it. I am sure we will
be able to arrive at it, Avliih* allowing the ]ieople of the respective countries
through their Governments to carry out such a local system as they belicA'e
to be best suited to their individual circmnstances. I look forAvanL to the
outcome of the discussions which we an^ having across this table as going
in the direction of enabling us to join with the Board of Admiralty and
the British (iov(!rnment in helping generally in making our NaA'j' stronger
and better than it is at present.

Sir WILFRID LAUKIER : Mr. Brodeur will speak for Canada.

130

Mr. JMiODElli: Lord Elgin, ami gcutlenieii, iu view of the remarks Fifth Day.
made by ]\lr. Di-akiu aud Sir Jus(;[)ij Ward, it will uot be necessary lor me -jw Ajjril 1907.

to-day to state the position whicli L'anada iiiteuds to take iu regard to this

question of Xavall )efunce. Our situation is a dillVrent one to that of thf-otlit'r •^''^■•^'- Dekencb.

Colonies, and should be troatetl as such. I think, however, it woukl be only

fair that I should state to-ilay that the posit ion of Canada has uot been

properly represented as far as Naval Defence is concerned. I see by a

document which has been laid before us that we are supposed uot to have

spent any money at all upon Naval Defeuee. That ilocumeut shows wliat has

been spent by the United Kingdom, by Newfoundland, Austraba, New

Zealand, the Cape, Natal, and when it comes It) speak of Canada, it is sunply

stated theic that the Naval expenditure is none. 1 may say at the outset tliai

iu view of the Treaty which was made in 1818 between the liuperlal

(iovernment and the (Jovernment of the United States, it was foruially

stipulated tliat the Americans should have the right to come and iisli on our

shores, and that they should have the right also to come into our harbours

when they are looking after their lishing. Outside of that, they luive a right

also, in virtue of that Treaty, to go to some parts of Canada to lish on tlie

same footing as the Canadian British sul)jects. This particular situation,

which was created iu Canada by that 'I'reaty, induced the liritish Admiralty

to look after the defence, or after the protection of Canada, against the

jioachiug of these American lishermen. That duty was performed, and that

protection was given to our own people during man^- years 'dv the British

Admiralty, but for some time, especially since 1885, absolutely nothing has

l)een done by the British authorities. All expenditure in connection with

that Fisheries Protection Service has lieen carried on, incurred, and uiade by

the Canadian Covernment. I understaml that in England the Fisheries

I'rotectiou Service is also under the control of the Admiralty, and all money

exj)ended for that service is found l)y the Admiralty. 1 do uot know whether,

in the amount which is given in that paper as being the expenditure of the

British Admiralty — 33,000,000/. — that particidar service is included or not.

I suppose it is.

I.()rd TWEEDMOUTll: The Newfoundland one ?

Mr. BRODEUR : No, I meant the Naval expenditure of the United
Kingdom, 33,O0O,000L, as the monej' expended for Naval purposes. I
suppose that includes the Fisheries Protection Service too ?

LordTWEEDMOUTlf: Yes, certainly.

Mr. BRODEUR: Of course, we woidd claim that the same thing should
be done with Canada — that the expenditure tliat we make for the Eisheries
Protection Service in our coimtry should also be given as money for, and
shoidd be considereil as, Naval exyK-nditure.

I must also say that this obligation which we are cariying out to-day is
to a certain extent not simply a local obligation but an Imperial ol)ligation,
because that obligation was incurred in virtue of treaties, those treaties
having been passed l)etween Creat Britain aud the United States without,
of course, the consent of Canada. We are very glad to-day, however, to
take upon our shoidders the expenditure iu connection with that service.
I may say that since 1885 — since the abrogation of the Washington Treaty-
we have spent for that service 3,117, 1)1)0 ilollars, and last year, 1005 (i, we
spent 250,000 dollars. I may say this year the money to be spent will be
very much larger, because Ave are going to construct a cruiser wliich will cost
■us about 500,000 dollars, or 100,0(X)Z. As I say, we have been very glad to

140

Fifth Day. take Over tMs service and to relieve the Admiralty of so much. The same
2S April 1907. thing has been done with regard to the great lakes and in connection with the

great lakes I might call the attention of the Conference to this point. It is

Naval Defence. ^^^ ^^ i^g Supposed, I think, that the Admiralty could do anything on the
(Mr. BroJeur.) great lakes. It woidd not be a very easy thing to do. This service, then should
be taken over entirely by the Canadian Government. As a matter of fact,
it was done by the British Government for some time. They haci some boats
there, but those boats went away, and they were replaced by Canadian boats.
We have to-day on the lakes a boat which is an armed-boat which is looking
specially after the protection of our fisheries against the American fishermen,
not only for the carrying oiit of the local regidations, but mostly, and I may
say almost exclusively, for preventing the Americans from coming and fishing
in our waters. We have on the great lakes (large seas, properly speaking)
American States bordering those great lakes, and they are having navies of
their own now. I think that three States bordering on the three great lakes,
Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois, are spending not less than 15,000, 000 dollars
themselves for keeping up a navy on these lakes, and are drilling their men
on the shores of the lakes. Besides, they have some ships which are not
armed — because it would be against the conclusions of the treaty — but built
in order to be prepared in case of emergency. As far as Canada is concerned,
one of the first duties we shall have to look after is our protection in connection
with the great lakes, I may say that the wars we have had since 1763, since
Canada has become part of the British Empire, came from the United States.
We had an invasion in 1775, we had an invasion in 1812, and we had the
Fenian Raids in the Sixties. All those invasions came from the United States.
So we have to look specially to protect ourselves in that direction, and I may
say we have been doing it as far as the great lakes are concerned, not to a
very large extent it is true, but to the extent of spending a sum of money
which is quite important for a country of the size of ours.

NoAV Avith regard to our Naval Militia, which comes under my Depart-
ment, we l^ave been, as I said, spending some money for the Fisheries Protection
Service, and carrying out in that way not only some local self-defence, but
also Luperial obligations, and I am sure we have been very glad to do it,
and are glad to continue to do it. We established a couple of years ago a
cruiser for Canada which is manned entirely by Canadian seamen. Those
men are now drilling every day. We have a certain number of yoimg men
on that boat drilling every day and taking exercises, and acquiring know-
ledge in connection with Naval matters.

'o^

I may say also in connection with that that we have been assuming some
parts of the work which was done previously by the Admiralty not only in
connection with the Fisheries Protection Service and Naval Militia, but also
in regard to certain other matters. We have established wireless telegraphic
stations. Several of them have been established on the Atlantic coast, and
we are now under contract to estalilish some others on the Pacific coast. We
have l^een asked by the Admiralty authorities to consult with them Avith
regard to the commimications of those different stations. We have been very
glad to do it, and since we received that communication from the Britisli
authorities we have not established any of these vrireless telegraphic stations
without consulting with the British Admiralty. Those services are costing
also a great deal of money, and are not included in the amount of Tnoney
which has been given as our part of our Naval expenditure, though 1 siq)pose
that the expenditure made in connection with wireless telegraphy in
England is also under the control of the British Admiralty, and is incbuled
ill the amount which is given here.

We have taken over also the Hydrographic Survey, and we are to-day
extending the Hydrographic Survey. We have engaged the services of a

Hi

naval officer of the British Admiralty for the purpose of making our Hydro- ^''f'"' ^"i-
graphic Survey. We are huilding a boat on the new Pacific coast for that 23 April 1907.
purpose, also, and we have two boats now engaged on that service on the ^, ^. "7^^. ,^. ^
Atlantic coast. I know that the British AdmiraUy have some two Ijoats ; * *vi^''„ ''^^-^'^^
I think one in the Atlantic Oean and the other in the Pacilic Ocean, now ^^'- """'''"'■•^
making some hydrographit-al surveys. We are ready to take over this service
at any time the British Admiralty would like us to do that work.

We have taken over, or are going to take over, the 1 lab fax and
Escpiimalt Dockyards — in fact, we are in possession already, from the
1st January, of the Halifax Dockyards. I do not know exactly how mucli
those dockyards were costing the British Acbniralty- or the one at Halifax,
but I may say we have assinned all the obligations in connection with those
dockyards, and we have provided speciality hat the amount which the British
Admiralty was to pay as an annual subscription to the graving doi'k at
Halifax would be paid by us instead of by the British Admiralty. We have,
a^s I have said, provided for the establishment of docks at Halifax and
Esquimalt, so I think it would be only fair that in the statements published
giving the monies spent for naval expenditure, the amount spent l)y the
Canadian Government in connection with those different Services 1 have
JTist mentioned should be inchided in such Naval expenditure.

I do not think for a moment it AviU be necessary for me to discuss the
question further, because I understand the discussion will be taken up on
some other dav.

Dr. JAMESON : I will ask Dr. Smartt to speak for Cape Colony.

Dr. SMARTT : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, — I think thai, as the result
of the intervieAv which Lord Tweedmouth was kind enough to grant to
Mr. Moor and myself with regard to the naval defence of South Africa,
he is thoroughly in jiossession of the views of the Cape ; and 1 therefore
listened with all the more pleasure to the clear statement made by him
and to the express statement that the Admiralty would view, in the most
sympathetic manner, any proposition coming from any self-governing portion
of the Empire with a view to improving the naval resources.

Now I can thoroughly understand the position taken up by Canada's
representative, which is, to a certain extent, moving in the direction laid
down by Lord Tweedmouth as one of the express lines of policy desired by
the Admiralty. Canada, it is stated, is doing a great deal in the direction of
improving her harbours, which harbours would not only be of assistance to
herself, but also to the Admiralty in time of trouble. But I think a great
deal of the expenditure referred to in connection with what might be
described as the policing of the seas with the view ol' protecting their
Fisheries, is similar to that made (perhaps in a much heavier waj"-) by the
Cape Colony and Natal in connection with the forces which, o^ving to the
large native population, it is necessary to maintain and which is not the case
in other Colonies. But, Lord IClgin I do not think the people of Cape
Colony would for one niouiont desire to raise that as an argument to prevent
our meeting the legitimate obligation that rests upt)n us as a portion of th(>
Empire in assisting Great Britain in her naval defence, and 1 think Mr. !Moor
will say the same of the people of Natal. Lord Tweedmouth has told us of
the enormous work done by the Navy. 1 think that is recognised by every
portion of the Empire ; and while we are pleased to hear of the magnificent
position in which Lord Tweedmouth antl his responsible advisers (>onsider
the Navy to he, we in the outlying portions of the Empire, recognising,
as was laid down by ]\Ir. Haldane in his statement on ililitary Defence the
other day, that the first line of rlefence is the Na^'y, and that, i[ that line of
defence is broken through, the w]u)le fabric of the Empire will crumble to

142

'■ pieces, are pl-epared to recognJHe that we sliould do everything, with the

23 April 190,. assistance of the Admirahy, to tiy and make that lirst line of defence, if

Naval Defence Possible, still stronger than it is at present.

/r> c . ' Oil behaK of Cape Colouv, I at once acknowledge that the contribution

(Dr. bmartt. , . ,^ " ' . ,*' .. ,.

that we give at the present moment is not adequate to our position, and is
not adequate to the services that the Navy renders to us. We are now trying
to do something to infuse a spirit of enthusiasm into our young men to come
forward and enrol themselves in a corps of Naval Volunteers, and I trust that
the Admiralty will meet that corps by allowing it to be established as a force
not of Naval Volunteers but of Royal Naval Volunteers. I am able to state
that it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill into Parliament
next Session whereby every member of that Naval Volunteer force will enrol
not only for service in local waters, but for service in any part of the world that
the British Admiralty might consider such service necessary should a period
of danger unfortunately arise. We, to be able to keep up the necessary spirit
of enthusiasm in a force of this sort, must have some means of giving them
practical training ; and I gather from what I^ord Tweodmouth has said that
the Admiralty will be prepared to treat sympatheticall^y every portion
of the Empire on a basis best suited to its individual requirements, and
further will be prepared to do what would be very acceptable to the (Jape ;
that is, allow us to take over a small ship, necessary for the training of
these men, and, until other arrangements can be made, to devote to the
up-keep of that ship a certain portion of the grant that the Cape and
Natal now give towards the British Navy.

I also fully agree, and am perfectly certain that tlie peojjle at the Cape
will agree, in the necessity of assisting the Admiralty, that we outlying
portions of the Empire should provide small craft, such as submarines and
torpedo-boats, not alone for the defence of our shores, but to be joined on
to any squadron sent from Great Britain in periods of great emergency,
it being a great difficulty, or almost impossible, to send torpedo craft
many thousands of miles to sea. As the Admiralty say they would welcome
a departure of that sort, I think the people at the Cape, knowing that
they were really fundamentally assisting in building uj) the Navy, would,
when times improve, be prepared to increase their contribution ; and I
also presume that that would l)e the position of Natal. I hope that we
would be joined in that position— especially as the spirit of federation
is now so strongly evident in Soutli Africa — by the inland States, that is
the Transvaal, the Orange River Colony, and perhaps Rhodesia. I think
everybod}' recognises the burden upon the British taxpayer. I should
think at the present moment. Lord Tweedmouth, that the Admiralty is
taking out of the general taxation of Great Britain something over 201.
out of every lOOL for the up-keep of the Navy. You are paying rouglily,
I suppose, 15s. or 16s. per head of your population. Well, in comparison
with that, look at the contribution of the Cape — (5(),000Z. a year), and
the contributions of the other portions of the Empire towards the up-keep
of the Navy. It is about a sovereign, perhaps, out of every lOOL of the
general revenue. We must recognise that while it is of the first im-
portance to Great Britain to protect her enormous over-sea trade, it is
also of equal importance to South Africa, and to the other portions of
the British Empire, to protect their trade over the seas — which is of as
great importance to them as the trade of Great Britain is to her. If
the Admiralty would work out a scheme and discuss it with us, we
wouhl Ije prepared to see how far we coidd work up in that direction,
so that our contribution would be of the greatest possible assistance to
the Admiralty ; and the assistance in this direction woidd naturally appeal
much more forcibly to the people and give them a stronger individual
interest iu the fleet than simply a njonetary contribution would do.

143

With logaid to clocks : lluU is also a matter in which we oouhl Fifth Day.
assist, but I wouhl lilce to point out that as these docks wouhl not -j-^ April iyo7.

alone be used for comniercial purposes, but also for naval purposes in

time of war, they would he practically useless if they were not adequately Na\ ai. Dekexce.
dei'euded. Another matter on which we would like to have tiie advice (l^'- fsmurtt.)
and assistance of the Admiralty, is as to the character of the defences
in such an important strategical ])ortiou of the Empire as Cape Colony,
because, if we iiud that it is necet.8ary, as we thiuk it is, to improve those
defences, we would be (juite prepared to discuss what our proportion of the
contribution towards the imi)rovement of those defences should l)e. Lord
Tweedmouth lias told us that the Admiralty are increasing their dock accom-
modation, and that there ai-e already some thirteen docks that will take in
ships of war even of the size of the " Dreadnought," and that one ol' those
docks is, I believe, Simonstown. Now 1 presume that, from an Admiralty point
of view, it is not alone the question of the size of the dock to accommodate a
ship of a certain tonnage, but the question of a ship being able to get into
that dock under all conditions of weather. I woidd like to be assured by the
Admiralty on this point as to the docks at Simonstown. The advice 1 have
is that, as the Simonstown Docks have been constructed, at the present
moment in the prevailing wind at certain seasons of the year (that is
during periods of howling south-easters) it might be very difficidt for a
ship to get into the Simonstown Docks. I would like to be assured that
the necessary works to allow that to take place are under contemplation by
the Admiralty, because to have a clock which you are not able to use in
all weathers (especially in time of Avar) to my mind, detracts enormously
from the value of that dock ; and I hope that this is a point that the
Admiralty wiU fully consider before it is too late and the Simonstown Docks
are fully completed.

Before we return, we hope that, with the advice and assistance of the
Admiralty, we shall be able to devise some scheme whereby our Naval
Volunteers will be established and strengthened in num])er, in conjunction
with Natal ; and also that the Admiralty will advise us as tcj what is the best
manner in which we can move on the lines of the policy laid down by the
Achniralty. I think the i^eople of the Colony would welcome a departure
of that sort, and I believe woidd recognise that, if further contributions in
such a direction were necessary, they would be willingly met by the Colony.

Sir ROBERT BOND : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen,— For more than 400
years the Fisheries in Newfoundland have been a recruiting ground for the
British Navy. It is so to-day. It may be so to a far greater extent in future
than it is at present, for there are some 60,000 fishermen engaged iii that
Colony of a physiciue developed by their avocation, which makes them most
suitable for His Majesty's Navy.

In 1U02 I entered into an agreement with the Admiralty, on behalf of
my Colony, in the matter of the establishment of a Naval Reserve, which
should be liable for service, if found to be necessary, beyond ihe limits
of the Colony and in any part of the Empire. Up to the present time
it has been a very marked success indeed. On the roU there are
now some 590 men who have distinguished themselves in His Majesty's
Service, according to the reports of the Commodores upon that station.
Any large contribution that the Colony may give in the future must
be in the direction of the service of such men. This is necessarily so
because while the Colony that I represent is not like that of my friend,
Sir Joseph Ward, a new Colony, for on the contrary, it is Englancl's most
ancient Colony, still the conditions that apply there at the present time^ are
almost identical with those that have been pourtrayed by Sir Joseph Ward.
The Colony for the most part is an undeveloped one. The expenditure

144:

Fiftlj Day. necessary for its development must come from the resources of tlie Colony.

23Ai>nl 1907. We stand in an exceptional position amongst all other Colonies of the

,, ~ — Enipire, I think, in that we have not received any assistance from His

EPExcE. ]\fj^jgg^y'g Government — money assistance, I mean — in the direction of

R b -t B ■( promoting the indnstries or the development of the Colony. Yet at the

present time the Government owns some 700 miles of railway, nearh'' 1,500

miles of telegraph, 300 miles of cable which connect the Colony wath the

neigh l^ouriug continent, and a dock which up to a very recent date was

pronounced to be one of the finest in British North America. All these

great undertakings have come oiit of the funds of the Colony itself. In

the future, 1 take it, we shall have to look to onr own resources, and such

being the case, as I mentioned a moment ago, any large money consideration

or coniribution towards the Kavj- can hardly be exj^ected from the colony of

Newfoundland.

There is a matter that I am pleased my friend the (Canadian Minister
of ^Marine has touched upon, namely, the ex]penditure incident to the
policing of the waters consequent upon treaties entered into many years
ago by His Majesty's Government with certain foreign nations. While
the liability of expenditure to which my friend the Canadian ^Minister referred
only applies to the Americans in his case, we have a further obligation in the
Colony of Newfoundland, inasmuch as by virtue of a treaty entered into with
France many years ago, she occupies St. Pierre and Miquelon islands off our
south coast, which are a continual menace to our revenue. What I mean
is this, that a system of smuggling has been carried on from St. Pierre for
a number of years. We have estimated the loss to our revenue at something
like 150,000 to 160,000 dollars a year. We have to police —at very con-
siderable expense to our revenue — the waters of the south coast in the
neighl)ourhood of St. Pierre and Miquelon. We also have to .police our
waters right around the whole coast line of nearly 4,000 miles to protect
our fisheries and protect our revenues from encroachiuent at the hands of
the American fishermen. My friend, the Canadian Minister of Marine and
Fisheries, has contended, I think, with very much force and very much
justice to his Colony, that the expenditure incident to that protection service
ought to appear really as a contribution from his Colony towards Naval
Defence, because unless the Colony provided that protection service itself I
take it it would be regarded by His Majesty's Govermnent as a duty
incumbent upon itself to supply such protection, inasmuch as the necessity
is one that the Colony can hardly be held responsible for. The argument
applies with greater force in the case of Newfoundland. The treaties are of
old standing, naniely, that of 1818 with the Americans, and the Treaty of
Utrecht with France more than a hundred years older. They were made
without the consent of the Colonies by the Imperial Government in the
interests of the Empire. Therefore I respectfully submit that the expenditure
that the Colony is called upon to make for fishery protection service by reason
of those treaties might be properly regarded as a contribution toward naval
expenditure.

Under the agreement that was entered into in 1902, to which I have
made reference, the liability of the Colony is to the extent of 51. sterling
per liead for every man recruited in the island. His ^lajesty's Govern-
ment assiuning the whole of the balance of the expenditure in coni]£ction
therewith. The arrangement that was made having worked out entirely
satisfactorily to tlic Colony, and I believe, entirely satisfactorily to His
^Majesty's (iovernment, I assume there is no reason for any revision of the
agreement that is existing.

I liave only to add that I shall be pleased to recommend to my
Government a further increase to the amount that is at present being
contributed if it is deemed desirable by His Majesty's Government to

145

increase! the number of reservists in the C!olou.y. I will go so far as V'tUh Day.
to say that wc would assume double our presi^nt liability upon the '2^^ Ai)ril iyo7.
same basis as that set forth in the existing agreement. .

With regard to the matter of dock ])rovisi()u. The Colony built a dock ^^'^'- ^'■-'•■e^ce-
some years ago, at a cost of some G50,OUt» dcjllars, and it is regardetl as one ,. ^^!^'[. .n
of the largest docks, if not the best, in British North America. • " '^'^ "" ''

With respect to coaling facilities for His Majesty's Navy, the CVjlony at the
present time is expending a very considerable annual amount in developing the
coal measures, which not only exist on the south-west coast of Newfoundland,
but also in the interior of the island, and it is hoped that these deposits will
be such as to warrant us in going much further than we have gone up to the
present time, and at no distant date offer facilities for naval supplies. The
coal is of excellent quality.

We are also encouraging the development of the petrolemn areas of the
west coast. When I was in England in 1905 the Admiralty coinmunicateil
with me in respect to the petroleum areas of the west coast, and showed very
great interest indeed in the possibilities of that country. Mr. Pretyinan, who
was at that time Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, assured me that
the matter was of special interest to his Department, and expressed a hopcj
that the Govermnent of the Colony would do what it could to aid in the
development of those deposits. That we have done, and that we are stiU
continiiiug, and I hope the efforts in this direction maj' yet result in being
of material advantage to His Majesty's Nav}',

I have nothing further to add at present.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I have to thank Tx)rd
Tweedmouth for the clear way in which he has laid big problems before us
this morning, and I have also to thank him on behalf of Natal for the
sympathetic way in which he seems to have met both the Cape Colony and
the Colony I represent in the direction Ave have been indicating to him at a
conference that Dr. Smartt has already referred to.

We feel that in South Africa individual Colonies, divided as they are at
present, are not sufficientlj' strong to do all that they should be doing towards
helping the British Navy, and as far as the Cape and Natal are concerned,
having duly talked the matter over, w'e feel we might more adequately assist
if we had some kind of union together with the advice and the assistance of
the Imperial Government. Our idea is that being more or less in union with
each other, we shall have better results, and will be able to have more scope
for the movement wc arc trying to promote in these Colonies. For some
years in Natal, and I believe also in Cape Colony — in fact I know it is so —
we have had a movement there started, so far as Natal is concerned, by the
late ^Ir. Harry Escombe, who was one of the best public men we ever had in
the Colony, to promote a spirit of assistance towards the Imperial Govermnent
in regard to harbour matters and the building up of the Naval Reserve. He,
my Lord, was the father of the corps that we now have in Durlian, known as
the Naval Reserve Corps. This corps has done admirably, is very enthusiastic,
has been in the field on scn^eral occasions, and took a most prominent part in
the late outbreak that we had there- the rel)ellion. But this corps is inore
or less dying of inanition, because it feels that it is not having recognition as
regards its value or its services in a direction that it is essentially organised
for, that is, with regard to its naval training. We cannot give that naval
training or promote any further that spirit of assistance imless we have the
assistance of the Admiralty. And, as already indicated ])y Dr. Smartt, it did
occur to us that if the Admiralty could help us with a ship we might be able
to utilise the services of these men witli the ship, as l)etween dilTerent ports
on our coast, and give these men that sea training which is so essential not
only for their use, i)ut in keeping alive the movement. It would l>ring the

A 4866S. K

(Mr. F. R. Moor.)

146

Fifth Day. movement closely in evidence ; it would bring it to the notice not only of

23 April 1907. these men but to the notice of the Colony, and would raise a spirit of

V. r.rlZ,^^. ^ enthusiasm which we cannot hope for unless we do have something of that
JNaval Defence. ^ °

sort.

From the statement we have had this morning it seems that the
Admiralty is realising there may now come about a new departure with
regard to the defence of these outlying portions of the Empire, that is in the
direction of tlae utilising of smaller craft. These scientific craft are higlily
technical, I take it, but they could be used in our waters very effectively, not
only iu the event of war, Ijut in the meanwhile for the training of our local
people, and also as one of the best means for repeUing any threatened attack
by a cruiser or any ships an enemy might put round our coast, and deterring,
perhaps, tlie attack from being delivered.

That being the case, I feel that I should put myaelf here entirely
in the hands of the Admiralty and the Home Government as regards
advice. We are here to learn, to exchange ideas with you, and where
possible to give you every assistance in our power, and if our first
crude idea is not one that commends itself as the most efficient to the
Admiralty, by all means let tis take advice, and I promise that we
will do our best to forward the movement that Lord Tweedmouth has
indicated to us this morning.

I can only say this, that as regards our local defences we are
trying to do our best. My little colony has just spent some 700,000L
or 80O,OOOL of money in quelling a reljellion among the natives. That
is a danger we all of us in South Africa have to face, and I think
we do fully realise that we have to face that in the future and Ave
have to provide efficient men and means for being able to govern these
people without looking to the Home Government. Putting it against the
auguments that have been adduced by the representatives of Canada, and
also the last speaker. Sir Robert Bond, I do humbly submit that it is a sot off
"to the argmnents that have l^een adduced as regards policing their waters.
We have iu Natal made and wrenched from the reluctant hands of nature
one of the finest harbours in the southern hemisphere and it has cost us
millions of money to do it. That harbour to-day is at the disposal of the
British Navy, Avith all its furniture and all its conveniences, and all we ask of
you is to advise us how to turn those facilities, that Ave have carried out
entirely at our OAAm expense, to the greatest advantage for the common good.
I do not say it with the idea of tresj)assing on the claims of my sister colonies
in South Africa, but Ave have the finest coal that has yet been discovered in
South Africa. That coal is available in any quantity that you may desire at
our harbours, and Ave are providing these facilities for handling it and for
getting it into depots as may he desired in the interests of its use not only
connnercially but for defensive purposes.

I feel that this contrilnition Ave are noAV giving in money Avould be
perhaps more advantageously spent if it Avas more in the direction of men
and material — a direction that Avould appeal to the people, so that they woidd
have evidence that it Avas really a living organism Avhich Ave had started and
it Avould encourage them to go on Avith the good Avork. With regartl to Avhat
Dr. Smartt has said as regards increasing the combination, Avhen the time
'.lonies that Ave can afford it, and Avhen Ave have, as I hope Ave shall ha\-e, the
federation of our Colonics an accomplished fact, I do trust that avc Avill he
able to increase oiir conti'i])ution. But I do trust also that tlie Admiralty will
meet us in getting that contribution uiade more in tlie direction which 1 ha\'e
tried to indicate than l)y simjily a cold lump sum, voted on our estimate, for
Avhich wo have no actual evidence as directly concerning the. people Ave
represent.

147

I have nothing more to add, only I wish to emphasise that I do thank '''"''"''' ^*7-
Lord Tweechiionth for the kind Avay in which lie is tryiii.i: to meet our views, 23 April 1907.
and I hope that with the advice of the Achiiiralty some good will couie out of .- . "T~.. .
the movement we are attempting to advance. ^ '^^■^'' '^'^^^'^

CE.

(Mr. F. H. Moor.)

General BOTILV : Lord Elgin and (lentlemcn, tlie Transvaal is in
a unique position with regard to this (pu'stion. We are inlaud and we
have absohitcly no harbour. I was nearly going to say our friends in the
Mother Country always kept us well away from the sea.

I have gone through this Statement, and the 177,000/. that is our
expenditure in the Transvaal only indicates the sum we spend on volunteers.
But there is another force in the Transvaal on wliich we spend a hig sum
of money. This is a force that was brought into existence after the war,
and which is thei-e still. It is the South African Constabulary, anil tliat
body costs the Transvaal about a million pounds every ye.-ar, so that our
expenditure is really very much more than would a]ipear from lliis
Statement.

On the itemof expenditure on the Navy we figure as nil, but llic
question arises with me whether it would be practicable t(i give a sum of
money. 1 tliink the best way in wliich we at pretrent in tin; Trausv^il can assist
the British Empire in general is to get the Transvaal to unite with the rest
of South Africa in a practical way on the question of dcJ'euce. The position
is to-day that idthough we are spending very much money we practically
have no reliable defence in the Transvaal. And wc notice especially with
regard to the recent rebellion in Xatal that we are not sufTici(>iitly prqiared
for all contingencies. In Soutli Africa we have a situation whicli may become
a very serious one and a menace to our position, and if we do not set to work
very carefully tliere, we run the risk that one day possilily half of the white
j)opulation may l)e mown down without our being in a position to help them.
13earing this in mind, my opinion is that we should federate, at any rate witli
a view to defence, in order to remove the possibility of such a danger. 1 have
not had the opportunity of discussing the question of a naval contribution or
aiding the British Navy with my Govermnent, and still less with the Parlia-
ment of the Transvaal, but what I have in mj- mind's eye to ]-)ropose is a
system of defence for the whole of Soutli Africa, and if tlie Parliament of the
Mother Country thinks w^e can aid the Empire in that respect, we shall be
prepared to spend a large sum of money for that ol>ject. I tliiuk llial at
present we are so constituted in the Transvaal that we shall lind it dillicult to
make a contribution to tlie Navj' by way of a money payment.

CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, the Fir.st Lord of the Adnu'ralty would like
to say a few words in reply to the observations which have been mailc, but 1
think that he agrees that effect must be given to the request of Mr. Deakin,
Avho has lieen called away by another engagement, that there should be
anotlier o])p()rtunily of resuming the discussion later ; thcrcfi)re 1 propose to
ask Lord Tweedniouth to make his rej)ly now, and I will make a suggestion
with regard to the resumption of the debate wlu'U 1 mention the other
arrangements at the conclusion of the meeting.

Lord TWKEl)]\I()rTH: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen. I think that the
general discussion and the expressions of opinion on the ]iart of the Prime
Ministers who liave spoken is very satisfactory. 1 think they form a good
basis for an eventual agreement on the lines which I have ventured to fore-
shadow. Of course it is impossible to settle details now and here. 1 liope
that some of the Prime Ministers and their friends will come and tall; over

K 2

148

Fifth iJav. that question with me as to how the wants of each particular Colony may be
23 April 1907. nict in the sort of way tliat I have roaghlj^ suggested.

There are just two or three points that I think I ought to allude to. The
first is the question of manning, which is a very important one. The present

Twceiliuoutli.)

2sAvAL Defence.

■cdinoutli.') view of the Admiralty undoubtedly is, after very carefid consideration of the
wliole subject, that the conditions of modern war probably would lead rather
to the loss of ships than of men ; that the results of the Japanese War and
other experience have shown that the loss is rather one of ships than of the
men who are on board those ships ; that there is alwaj'^s a considerable number
of men saved even if a ship is lost, and that the loss of men in a naval
battle is small in proportion to the loss of men on land. That must always
be rememlDered. So that ^vhat ive may naturally expect is that as a Avar goes
on and we are subject to the casualties of war we shall find that we have a
number of men at our disposal, whose ships perhaps have either been
damaged or lost, to use on board other ships.

Another point that I should like to remind you of is the long time under
modern conditions that it takes to train a man properly to do his work
efliciently on one of these great modern battleships. I think I am not
exaggerating in the least when I say that for the higher ratings on board ship
certainly six years are taken to train a man to do his work projjerly. The
higher ratings now in the Navy are really trained and skilful mechanics, and
they only are alilc to take the duties of those ratings and to undertake the
machinery, gunnerj-, torpedo, and other work of that sort. Untrained men
are useless for that work, and therefore we are bound to have men who have
gone through a long and careful training.

Then it is the same thing, to a stiU greater extent perhaps, as regards
the officers. I do not consider that an officer really can start on his career
now on less than eight years' training. Of course, we take them veiy young
— at 13 now — and by the time they are 21 or 22 they become lieutenants,
but even then I do not for a moment suggest that they are fully capaljle
of discharging all the important work that has to be done by officers. This,
however, I can say with the greatest confidence, that you may have the
most magnificent ships, guns, armour, and everything else, but if the human
element is not very properly trained, j'our guns, your armour, and your ships
are al)solutely useless. The whole history of our Navy shows that the self-
sacrifice and endurance of British sailors has been beyond compare, and I
believe at this moment they have reached a higher state of efficiency than
has ever been known before in the history of our countrj'. I make that
remark, because I think it is only fair to warn the Conference that the
admission of an unlimited number of men to the Naval Service is in practice
impossil)le. I mean we should have nothing for them to do. We should
not 1)0 alile to employ them.

Then there is a point which has been alluded to more than once by
speakers, and that is the question of the distribution of ships. At this
nionient no doubt we are under certain obligations with regard to Australia
as to the ships that are to be on that particular station. If, in future, as 1
hope will be the case, there will be greater concentration of the ships, I want
it to l)e very distinctly understood that I do not believe tliat our dominions
beyond the seas would sulfer in any way from such an arrangement, 'lihey
Avould not even sulfer in the show made by British ships in Colonial waters,
because tliough it may be perfectly time tliat vessels may not Ite so frequently
on the station, yet, as 1 bebeve, future developments will lead to the Colonies
not having the secondarj' or not quite the best of the ships, but they would
see the big l)attleships and cruisers from time to time. This would really
give a much greater show and give the Colonies a nnich better idea of what
the British Navy is than the ships that they have now stationed permanently

149

in their waters. That has been unflonbtedly the case in the Northern Fifth Day.

Hemisphere since the concentration of the Fleet in fkinie waters. The visits 2;{ Aiiril 1907.

made by squadrons to foreign powers and hjreign cities have been much

more impressive, much more freqiient, and much more useful than they ^'-^^ai- Uekence.

woxdd be if oulv comparativelv few ships were sent at a time to ])articuh»r (Loixl

foreip;n ports. " TwetHlmouth.)

Sir Joseph Ward referred to the question of pay. That is a very
important one. Jt is quite true that we have had trouble from the fact
of the Colonial men serving at a higher rate of pay than our own British
sailors. I tliink it was inevitable, and of course we must try to make as
good an arrangement as possible for mitigating the evils of the system.
At the present moment in Australia the pay is not paid directly to the men
on board ship, but is paid to them through the Post Olhce on land, the idea
being that they would leavt> their money in the Post Olhce and would not
spend it with their British comrades wliilst they were on board sl)ip. As a
matter of fact 1 think that idea has proved false. 1 have the figures here,
which are very curious. In Australia, out of 32,300/. paid to the Savings
Bank since the beginning of the agreement — that is up to the 30th June
190G — only 2,800L has remained in the Savings Bank, showiug that the men
have drawn out the money at once, and have expended it whilst they were
on service in British ships. Therefore, they were living and are living at a
higher rate than their British comrades on board the shijis, and they spend
their money on various things, clothes, or food, or one thing and another.
They do live on a different scale and in a different manner to the British
sailors who are serving alongsi<le tliem, which leads, no doidjt, to diflicidty.
I think that is an unfortunate thing, and what I shoidd suggest woxdd be
that in those cases we should adopt a system of deferred pay, so that the
Colonial sailor shoidd not be paid his extra pa,y till he has fuliilled his time
of service. When his time of service expired, then he would receive the
whole payment due to him for the whole service, and would have a con-
siderable sum with which to go away from the ship, anil he could use it
on land for some really xisefiil purpose rather than fritter it away in having
a good time on board ship.

Sir WTT.LIAM LYNE : Is it not possible that that money was drawn
out of the Savings Bank to supj)ort wiv( s or jjarenls on shore ?

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : tJf course that may be so.

Sir WILLIA^l LYNE: 1 think that most likely accounts for a portion

of it.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : I am afraid a good deal of it is spent by the
men on board. I quite admit Sir \\'illiam Lyne's point is a good one, and
no doubt an arrangement ought to l)e made to enal)le them to transfer
money to those belonging to them, and the people they have to support
while they are on board ship.

I ought to say that we here make no sort of reliection on Canada, and
we do not for a moment accept the criticism to which Mr. Brodeur referred.
We hold that Canada is pei-hn'tly free to come to any resolution. We hop(>
to have their help, Imt still they are cpiite right to look after their own
interests, in the full security that so far as the British Government can be
of use to thorn in their deftMicc; in time of need, they may depend in any
circumstances on our giving tliat aid with the greatest joy and without any
sort of drawback whatever.

A 48668. K 3

150

Fifth Day. Di'- Smartt made a great point that the Naval Volunteers should receive

23 April 1907. the title of " Royal." That depends, I think, chiefly on the local legislature

passing a JBill registering the Naval Volunteers as a regidar force. I think

Naval Defence, as soon as that Bill has passed through the Cape Legislature there v\dll be no

(Lord difficulty in their coming under the title of " Royal."

Tweedmouth.) With regard to the point raised as to the dock at Simon's Bay, I will

discuss it with the Hydrographer at the Admiralty and see what truth there

may he in that allegation that the dock at Simon's Bay is not accessible in

certain winds. I fancy there is some question of a breakwater to be added.

Dr. SMARTT : What I gather from seamen who know that coast is that
in a howling south-easter, which very often blows for two or three days,
the sweep of the wind playing on the entrance to the dock might make it
imsafe for a battleship or cruiser to enter. I imderstand that that could
be remedied by an expenditure of a not very large amount of money.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH
breakwater contemplated.

I believe there has been some adijitional

Dr. SMARTT : I believe so.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH : I do not know the details of it, but I must get
it from the Hydrographer.

Dr. JAMESON : Practically the extra expenditure necessary would be
50,000L or 60,0001

Dr. SMARTT : Say 60,000?. or 70,000/. to make it complete.

Lord TWEEDMOUTH: Then Sir Robert Bond referred to the New-
foundland Naval Reserve men. Your Chairman and I saw a squadron of them,
in this very quadrangle last summer, and we were struck by the smartness of
the men, and we had a most excellent report of the service they do. W^e are
very pleased to have the help of these men who are trained to the sea and
who must be, and are, most efficient fellows, and of course Ave shall be glad to
consider Sir Robert Bond's suggestion that there might be a possibility of
some addition to these reservists.

The same remark that I made to Dr. Smartt applies to what Mr. Moor
said about the Natal Naval Corps. They have not been registered as naval
volunteers. It would be necessary to have a Bill passed in the local
legislature before that is done. At this moment I think from the reports I
have received that the Natal Naval Corps is practically used as a sort of
garrison artillery ; that they do not at all train at sea ; that they have some
considerable guns under their charge — four 6-inch breech-loading guns, one
12-pounder C[uick-firing gun, two '45 Maxim guns, and two quick-firing
Hotchkiss guns. In the last defence scheme, this body is to take charge of
the guns in case of war or any attack as I understand. That I believe is the
last arrangement under the Defence Committee.

I quite recognise that General Botha is in rather a different position Jit)m
the other Prime Ministers, and, of course, the case of the Transvaal is ciuite
different, in having no coast at all. Still, we shall welcome any help that
General Botha may be able to give after consultation with his Government
and his Parliament to the general Naval Defence of South Africa. I am sure
anything of that sort would greatly help what, I hope, may very soon come
alwut — the federation of all the different Colonies now existing in South
Africa.

Fiflh Day,
2:5 April 1907.

151

All I can say is, that I shall he only too glad to confer with any nienibers

of the Conference who may wish to go into greater detail with regard to the

arrangements that can he juade umler tlie suggestions that I have made

to-day, and then I tliink if we had another talk at the Conference after that, Naval Deke\ce.

we might, perhaps, come to some defined resolution on the sidiject. (Lord

Tweed inoiitL.)

CHAIRMAN : I think my best plan is to move the adjournment of this
debate.

It was arranged at the last meeting that Emigration should be taken on
Thursday at 11. We might, perhaps, also put on the agenda Naturalisation
as another sul)ject, in the hope that we might reach it. The Home Secretary,
Avho will deal with that subject, would 1)e abl(> to attend.

Adjourned to 'riiiirsday next at 1 1 o'clock.

K 4

152

Sixth Day. SIXTH DAY.
25 April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Thursday, 25th April 1907.

Present :

The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of State

for the Colonies (President).

The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Canada,

The Honourable Sir F. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia and
Defence (Canada).

The Honourable L. P. Brodeur, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).

The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the Commonwealth
of Australia.

The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New
Zealand.

The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Minister of Cape Colony.

The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape
Colony).

The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Newfoundland.

The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.

General The Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.

Mr. Winston S. Churchili,, M.P., Parliamentary Under-Secretary of
State for the Colonies.

Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under-Secretary
of State for the Colonies.

Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on behalf of the India Office.

Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., \ j ■ , n , •
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., j ^^^"^ Secretaries.

Mr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

Also present : ;*

The Riglit Honourable IlERnERT Gladstone, M.P., Home Secretary.

The Right Honoural)le .John Burns, M.P., President of the Local
Govornnient Board.

Sir M. D. Chalmers, K.C.B., Permanent Under-Secretary of State, Home
Office.

153

Mr. C. P. Lucas, C.B., Assistant Under-Secretary of State for the Sixth Day.

Colonies. 25 April 1907.
Mr. H. Bertram Cox, CV>., Assistant Under-Secretary of State for the

Colonies.
Mr. J. Pedder, Home Ofhce.
Mr. H. Lambert, oI the ( 'olonial Ollice and Emigrants' Informatioix Office.

EMIGRATION.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we are to proceed to-day with the considera- Emiguatiox.
tion of the subject of emigration, which is a subject which, I think, has
already received considerable attention l)oth in the Colonies and in this
country. K I undcrstanti rightly, the Canadian CJovernment have their own
system for dealing with this question. The Australian and New Zealand
Governments have also, 1 think, had it under consideration. As regartls
ourselves in this country, we have had an inquiry by a very competent
Conuuittee, on which Colonial opinion, 1 think 1 may say, was represented,
because the Chairman was Lord Tennyson, and the Report of that Committee
and the evidence has been foi'warded to the Governments of the Colonies for
their consideration. 1 therefore think that we may, perhaps, come more
directly to a specific point on this question than, perhaps, on some other
subjects which have Ijeen l)efore us, for in the despatch fi'om this Ollice
forwarding these papers to which I have referred, the third paragraph drew
the attention of the other Governments to the question of whether
or not they were willing to accept state-aided emigration. 1 explained
that for my colleagues and myself we would wish to be assured on
this point before considering the matter fron\ the point of view of the ^Mother
Country. I would suggest, therefore, that in the discussion which is now
to open, that the particular point might be borne in mind specially. My
Right Honourable friend, the President of the Local Government Roanl, al'ter
hearing the views to he expressed by the other meml)ei-s of the Cunicrciice,
would be prepared to state his opinion upon that and other ])oints connecteil
with this subject. I, therefore, invite th(> other mendx-rs of the Conf«!rcnci!
to proceed to discuss the question from that standpoint.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I suppose, my Lord, it would be natural wo
should first hear the views of the Colony of Australia which has brought this
matter to the attention of the Conference.

CHAIRMAN : Yes. I omitted to say that one resolution submitted is by
the Commonwealth.

Mr. DEAKIN : My Lord and gentlemen, in touching upon this question
my first duty is to remove an apparent misaiiprehensicm. The question of
immigration to us is the question of emigration from you. The question of
emigration is as distinctly a British question as that of immigration is ()urs.
To what extent the Government and Parliament of Great Britain desin^ to
foster emigration is for them to discuss and decide. I shall therefore h)ok at
immigi-ation from our point of view, and not from the point of view of the
Mother Country, because upon that the representatives of the people of that
country are necessarily themselves the judges. Any remarks, therefore, which
I may make in regard to our desire for immigration are subject, of course,
to that necessary preliminary qualification. One aspect we necessarily must
leave in your hands, as it pertains to you and to you aloue.

154

Sixth Day. We commence, with the fact that ■ there is an emigration from this

25 April 1907. country. Whether that be stimulated by the Government or retarded, or

conditioned, there is the emigration actually proceeding. The first matter,

Emigration-. qj. ^]^g gj-g^ aspect, to whicli Ave draw attention is that while emigration
(Mr. Deakiii.) continues, we venture to submit that there is an obligation upon the British
Government to direct those who are leaving its shores to some part of the
Empire, and, if not activelj^ to at all events passively discourage the migration
of people of British stock to other countries under other flags. Of course,
the emigrant chooses for himself. He may, for his own reasons, prefer either
to join friends who have already left, or in order to follow some particidar
caUing desire to pass outside our territories. That the emigrant will decide.
But, subject to that free choice, what we submit is that so far as the Govern-
ment of this country acts at all its action should be to direct its sons and
daughters to its own Dominions where there is ample room and more than
ample room for all who may leave this country to settle abroad. The position
appears to us to be so clear as scarcely to need argument. It is a fact that in
the Dominions beyond the seas the inhabitants are greater consumers of the
goods of this country than any other people. The man who settles in Canada,
or Australia, or South Africa, purchases more from the Mother Country than
if he went to the United States, to South America, or to any other country
under another flag. That counts for something. What counts for more is that
none of the great Dependencies are yet anything like effectively popiilated.
n^'here is boundless room for settlement in most of them ; and that settlement
not onl^^ enhances the prosperity of that part of the Empire, and not only
increases its trade with the Mother Country, but is a guarantee for the
permanence of the control of those great territories by our own people and
by our own race. I use the word " race " here generally and in no invidious
sense. We quite recognise that in Canada and in South Africa we have two
races with whom we are most intimately associated. We look forward in
those countries to a gradual merging into a conimon stock. They are so closely
akin to each other that there is no olDstacle to a complete blending of the two.
Ultimately, there will be a Canadian people, and a South African people,
who, while associated with the Empire as closely as possible, will not have
within themselves the consciousness of any tlivision. In the same way we
recognise that it is, perhaps, hardly possible for us in Australia to draw
from the Mother Country the whole of the people for whom we are at once
able to provide. We should be very happy if the peoples who come from
outside the Mother Country to dwell and blend with iis were people of
French or Dutch extraction. We have in Australia, though in minor numbers,
both French and Dutch settlers already who are among the most valued
citizens we possess. Consequently we look forward to blending in Australia,
to some extent at all events, though perhaps to a small extent, with races
friendly, closely allied, and similar in character. Now take the point of view
of the Empire, and look forward to a very remote contingency. Suppose
that Canada in course of time becomes densely peopled, supposing its people
overflow — I take that, of course, as an illustration merely- -it woidd be the
paramount interest of all the other self-governing peoples that those Cana-
dians who desire to leave their country should settle in some other portion
of the Empire for commercial reasons, for racial reasons, and for every
reason. Consequently, we venture to submit that in whatever way the
Government of this country may think right and j)roper to intervene
in the matter of emigration, in this one direction we are, jjerhaps, entitled
to press thcnu for some action ; that is to say, that all they do shall
encourage settlers to pass to any part of the Empire they please, so
long as it is a part of the Empire, and shall, at all events negativelj^
discourage and certainly not assist them to go to countries whicb
are not under the Flag. At present I midcrstand whatever infonvat

155

is given is given indiscriminately, ami tliat those who are anxious to go ^'*'*i '^"y-
to North or South America beyond our territories, and I)eyond the Flag, ?5 April 1907.
arc praeticallv as much assisted and encouraged as if they \\ere going „

• *• H. M 111 It t T Wl V

to Colonies within the Empire. I cannot myself vouch for that statement, . " " '
but am so informed by some of those who have been associated with their ^
going. Under these circumstances, we put forward our lirst plea, which is
that for all our sakes the stream of emigration from the Mother Country ought
to be directed as much as possiljle towards some portion of the King's
Dominions, and it ought not to be assisted in anj- way towards the Dominions
of any other Power. That is the purpose of the first portion of our resolu-
tion : " That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to
" British Colonies rather than to foreign countries."' I do not know whether
it would meet your wishes, and the wishes of the rest of the Conference,
if I stop here, so that this question in which w-e are all interested, and on
which we can all speak, may be settled before passing to the second part,
which relates to further action by the Imperial Government.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : There will be no contrary opinion, I think,
to that proposal. I think we can all accept it as grantetl at once : " That it
" is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies
" rather than to foreign countries." Everybody would agree to that.

Mr. DEAKIN : I should hope so. May we take that as passed ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: What will it lead to? I look upon this
simply as a preliminary.

Mr. DEAKIN : If that is settled I ^vill then proceed Avith the second
part.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I \vant to say something on it somewhere.

Mr. DEAKIN : Would it be on the first part ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Either on the first part or the second part?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I do nt)t think there is anything to say
against this part.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Only there are some general points on which I,
as representing New Zealand, should like to say a word or two. Like Sir
W'ilfrid Lauricr I most cordially assent to the first part, but it is just a
(jucstion wdiother we should not discuss the whole matter on the first
proposal.

Dr. JAMESON : The second portion is the practical ])art. Would it
not be well to have some practical suggestion from Australia before going
into the discussion, to save going all over it again?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I support the first part general! v.

CHAIRMAN : I do not thiidv there is any dissent on the lirst part?

lea- Sir JOSEPH WARD : No.

156

Sixth Day.
25 April 1907.

Emigkatiox.

Mr. DEAKIN : I tope not. The second part is " That the Imperial
" Government be requested to co-operate yrith any Colonies desiring immi-
" grants in assisting suitable persons to emigrate." Here we take a step
further. The Lnperial Government is asked to co-operate with every Colony
desiring immigrants. If there are any portions of the Empire which do not
desire immigrants, to them we have nothing to say. Biit most of us are
eager to obtain them, and far jnore eager to obtain them from the ]\Iother
Country than from elsewhere. They blend with us in the working of our
social and political institutions, they enter into our life in all its phases
without any sense of separateness or strangeness, and hence, we are most
eager to obtain them.

The extent to which the Imperial Government will co-operate has been
left unsj)ecified for the reasons previously given. That is a matter on which
we can prefer a request for co-operation, but cannot expect to do more than
suggest generally what, from our point of view, we wish them to imdertake.
Whetlier they wiU do what we ask, or only part of it, is for them to decide.
The co-operation we seek is, first of all, in regard to the practical channels
by which emigration is sought to be effected in this countrJ^ These should
be adequate to their task. The only body that I understand is connected
with it officially, is the Emigi'ation Board imder this Department. I haA^e
been inquiring from the Agents-General of the several States of Australia
their opinions as to the efficiency of this particular agency, and regret to
say that their unanimous opinion is of an unfavourable character. They
think, at present, that no effective assistance is being given to them by this
Board. They go so far as to doubt whether it is possible for it to be given
by a Board constituted in this manner. Thej'' object even to the publications
which it has submitted, and have felt this so strongly that they have imder-
taken publications of their own, at their own expense, which thej^ consider
far more likelj^ to attract emigrants than those of the Emigi^tion Board.
Speaking, as thej^ do, as men of high standing who have the supervision
on this side of whatever is being done by the States of the Connnonwealth
in respect to immigration, I regret to learn that their verdict is so unfavour-
able. They suggest that some Board, responsilile directly to Parliament, or
responsible directly to a Minister, should be charged with this duty ; that
thej^, or some of their representatives, should be associated with it in the
most direct fashion, and that they should be consulted before statements
are put forward which sometimes they have foimd themselves obliged to
challenge.

B}^ way of illustration, since I have been here I have been si;pplied with
correspondence which has taken place with reference to one of the most
recent of the circulars issued by the Emigrants' Information Office. It is
dated 12th of April of this year. Of course, persouallv, I am dependent upon
the material that is put into my hands when speaking of the operations here.
The official statement published is that " The Queensland Government has a
" system of free passages to hona fide farm labourers and their families who
" are approved by the Agent-General in London, and guarantees them employ-
" ment in the State at full wages ; but up to the present the indents for such
" i)assages have been limited to men willing to work on the sugar farms in the
" north. The climate there is hot and moist in the rainy season, from January
" to ]\Iarcli, and hot and drj' at other times, and is very different from tliat to
" which farm labourers are accustomed in this country. It is very questionable,
" therefore, whether they would l)e able to Avork on arrival imder the fropical
" conditions that prevail in Nortli Queensland. The work of harvesting and
" crushing cane is still more trying, and is paid for at a higher rate. The
" free passage emigrant need not engage in it unless he wishes, and, indeed,
" the v.-ork is not suitable for persons from this country who have not resided
" for some time in the tropics. Assisted passages are also offered at 5/. per

157

statute adult." That is a ritateiuont, one of those many statements from Sixth l<av.
wliifh we suller, n\ hich is sullieiently corroct in a general way not to be 25 Ai)ril 1907.

challengeable as williil misrepresentation, but which, in its actual effect ami ,

purport, is a misrepresentation. First of all. the work of crushing cane has K>"<-«atios.
never yet been done by auylxxly but white lal)Our ever since sugar was grown ^^''- 1^«"'''"-)
in Queensland, and the warning therefore given here that the work of
crusliing cane " is still more trying and is paid for a at higher ratt\" is, lirst
of all, not correct, because it is not more trying, ami secondly, it takes place
in the mills, and is therefore, less trying. Jt has never been carried on from
the commencement by anything but white labour ; it is well pai<l, and well-
sought for. Therefore, so far as the crushing of cane is concerned, that is an
absolute misrepresentation. Take the other statement : " the work of harvest-
ing is still more trying and is paid for at a higher rate." The work of
harvesting is trying. You could not takeanuiss of labourers from this country
and put them down into a cane han'est field, and expect the whole body
of them to be al)le to engag(> in tliat work, well as it is remunerated,
Avith satisfacti(jn to themselves. Tlu're are a certain proportion of our
people^ who cannot face the rdose atmosphere and moist heat of the
cane fields. That proportion, of course, cannot be classified beforehand ;
it is a matter for individual experience. But this wholesale statement
is made in face of the fact that the (.'ommonwealth of Australia has
deliberately adopted the policy of requiring that the whole of this work
shall be done by white labour, and in face uf the fact that we have been
dealing during the last two years with the largest hai-vest of sugar cane we
have ever had, and arc dealing with it by a far largtu- proportion of white labour
than ever was employed in it bi>fore, 1 think, I may say, to the satisfaction of
the men Avho obtain the Avork and to the satisfaction, to a very large extent,
of the employers themselves. Where there is dissatisfaction the testimony is
that it arises from the want of self-control of those; engaged in a reuuuu'rative
employment, who are accustomed, as unfortunately people are in mauy
parts of the world, to spend too great a proportion of their wages upon
stimulants and to disqualify themselves by that means from ellieiently
continuing their work. There can be no doubt that the excessive use of
stimulants is more injurious in a hot climate than it is in a cold climate.
What the labourer in the cane Held suffers from most, or at all events what
is most complained about, is due to these excesses. But here we are
deliberately, as a part of a national policy, providing for the carrying on of
the whole of this industry by white labour. (.)f course, as Australia liecomes
older an increasingly large proportion of our labour will be Australian born.
Yet, speaking broadly and accepting the opinion of competent critics, they
are miable to detect in our first or even in our second generation any
apprecial)le departure from the old stock. Wo. have men freshly landed in the
hotter regions of our country- and I am speaking now of the north of Australia
— who go at once to such work. 1 have sjioken to many men who have
gone from England, Ireland, or Scotland direct to North tjueeuslaiul, or some
of the northern portions of Australia, and who have engaged at once in the
most trying occupations in the most trying belt. A short distance from the
sea coast one reaches the plateau. On that plateau we get cold fresh nights,
and there white men enjoy what is saiti by them to be one of the liest
c-liniates in the; world. In the belt where the sugar grows, conditions are
dilTerent, it is on the sea coast, and the heat is moist and oppressive. It
is not everyone who can live there with cond'ort and satisfaction, though it
is only a small proportion of those who settle there who ever think of leaving
it. The great proportion remain, thrive and flourish by labour, nuich of
which is as trying as this labour, and they are now dohig this labour with
excellent pecuniary results. No one would gather from reading this ollicial
statement that these are the facts of the case ; that a ilelilierate attempt has

158

Sixth Day. been made, which so far has been most successful, to substitute white labour
25 April 1907. for black labour in this industry. That is actually proceeding. Each year

for the last three or four years a great stride has been made. During the

Emgration. j.-^gj twelve months we have returned to their homes some 3,000 Kanakas,
(Mr. Deakm.) pacific Islanders, who have been engaged in this industry. Their place
will have to lie taken in the next season hj white men. A certain proportion
of the Kanakas are allowed to remain with us — those who have really made
homes, or become, in their sense of the word, partially civilised and settled
down. Their labour will be still available if they choose to give it. But
undoubtedly the greater part of this Avork will have to lie done by white
men, and is cheerfully lieing done by white men. My last news from
Australia is that the ajijilicants for employment on those fields are numerous
enough to cause it to be doubted whether we shall be dependent on immigra-
tion to permit of the whole crop being dealt with thoroughly this year.
Personally 1 think that is too sanguine an estimate. I am not a North
Queenslander, and therefore not qualified to speak liy personal knowledge,
but looking at the number of Kanakas leaving, and the great demand there
is at present for labour in all parts of Australia at high rates of wages, it
seems to me very doubtful whether we should be able to cope with the special
demands of this crop, the biggest crop we have ever had. and a similar crop
which will Ije reaped in the coming season. Therefore I think we .shall need
immigration. What I have been referring to I have said in a letter calling
attention to this circular. I might proceed to the other portions of this state-
ment, but really this general statement will show first of all a serious lihmder
in regard to the crushing, and next that it is a statement which is entirely
one-sided — although, of course, quite honest — and is certain to be misleading.

Dr. JAMESON : Whom is that published by ?

Mr. DEAKIN : By this very Board of Emigration of which the Agents
General have been complaining — the Emigration Information Office. In
my letter of the 20th of April, I pointed out — " No doubt it would lie a
" perfectly proper thing to instruct emigrants both on the nature of the
" work for which they are proposed to be engaged, and also to call their
" attention to the climatic conditions under which it is to be accomplished.
" All facts of this kind ought to l^e supplied and none suppressed ; but it is not
" apparent why the members of the Board with their imperfect knowledge
'' of the character of this employment, and apparently also of the extent to
" which it is being successfidly carried on by white labour, shouhl alisolutely
" Avarn emigrants against the undertaking. Evidently the influence that such
" an official declaration on the part of the Colonial Office is likely to have upon
" other European Governments has been overlooked by those whose desire ]uust
" be to encourage British settlers to seek new homes within the Empire. The
" circular of the Emigrants' Information Office dated 12th April is free
" from this objection, though the expression of opinion it contains is in
" Mr. Deakin's opinion decidedly too sweeping." I will qiiote presently a
further statement of the Emigration Board made in a letter to an applicant
for British innnigrants for Australia, to wliich my reply refers. The passages
that I have read from the circular should have been accompanied by a few
other sentences, stating that the greater part of this work is now being jJone
by white labour ; a great part of that Avhite labour is British boru ; the Avhole
of that work will have to bo done in future, liy steady degrees, more and
more by wliitc labour ; the wages paid are high ; for men who lead temperate
lives and will take the ordinary precautions necessary in a different climate
this work is thoroughly healthy. I am assured by those Avho have
personal (experience that some of the llnt^st specimens of our manhood they
have ever seen are to be found engaged in harvesting in the cane fields.

159

I take this as a typical illustration. Tt is a fact that men are earning in Sixth Day.

those cane fields wages which would be very hard to get anywhere else. 25 April 1907.

Some first-class experts during the last harvest season were making as high

as i'roni IL a day, and in a few exceptional extraordinary instances ' '

upwards of 30s. a day, during the time of harvesting. The point is that this ^ ^' '"''"'•■'

harvest, like all other harvests all the world over, is for a limited season ;

its beginning depends partly on the j)art of the coast on wliicli you are.

Quite a considerable portion of our rural labour in Australia is nomadic.

Our iimiiense flocks of sheep are shorn by shearers who come from their own

farms or from employment in the city, during tlie season. They take their

hoi'ses, and c'onuuenciug at the north of Australia, when the shearing season

Ijegins earliest, shear their way southwards, right down through (^)ucensland

and New South Wales to Victoria, travelling probably 2,000 to .j,000 miles.

In the same way, tliough to a lesser extent, in the cane-cutting on the

(Queensland coast, which lasts about four months altogether, it is possible to

commence at the north, and work south. The cane-cutters, like the shearers,

are(>ither the owners of farms, or are estaldishiug farms tliemselves, and wish

to obtain money for improvements auil other purposes. They come for that

season of the year. The work proceeds during the hot season, but the

evidence goes to show that these men, apart from the over-indulgence in

alcohol of which I have spoken, and over-indulgence in meat-eating which is

practically miiversal in Australia, maintain their health perfectly in the cane

fields. They can work, not only with the black men, but, as is always the

case in our experience, they can beat the black men or Chinamen out of the

liidd, in cane-cutting or any other employment, in any climate we have in

xVustralia. AVhon I speak of the very high wages I am not sj^eaking of the

whole body of cane-cutters. Where they earn those high Avages they are

not being paid Ijy the day, ])ut, Ijy piecework They take contracts at average

rates, and the high wages are obtaineil by exceptional capacity and expert

training, siich as I have spoken of. They can get that training in a season

or two. One season is considered sufficient to train a man, ami two seasons

ought to enaljle him to make the Ijest of his time. These high wages are

earned only on contract work, they are not earned on ilay work.

I ilid not intend to enter into all these considerations, or I would have
summarised my remarks antl ablireviated them. I have been drawn on to
them by the fact that 1 had not realised that before I could make these
conditions untlerstood in criticising that circular, 1 had to give some sort of
sketch of what is being done in t^Uieensland.

Surely, the proper thing for an Emigration Office under these circum-
stances would be to say : " You are going out to Queensland, a State which
" offers already large opportunities for land settlement, which, according to
" its programme, is about to give IGO acres free to any settler who will go
" there, and to make other land available at attractive rates ; a State where
" there'are boundless mineral and agricultural resources of all kinds. This
" is one class of work in connection with one class of ])roduct only of the
" many in Queensland, and if you should find that thi.s employment is misuit-

able for vou, you can have an^ph' work on dairy farms, on grain farms.

on

'• sheep stations, on cattle stations, as soon as you acquire the requisite local
" knowledije." As far as work in the dairy is concerned local knowleilge is
soon addecl There is al)undance of employment on the land in Queensland.
1 am speaking of that State only because that is the sugar State, whose
conditions have been questioned, ))ut the same remark applies to the northern
rivers of New South Wales where sugar is also grown. Although sugar is not
now grown in the remaining states of Australia, with some qualification the
same general renuirks apply to them. Agriculture is by no means the only
rural industry ; the timber industry has great potentialities in the felling.
This clears the' land, which when cleared is marvellously rich. Th(> climate

160

Sixth Day. is iiot described with strict correctness in that circular as tropical. It is
25 April 1907. rather sub-tropical. Perhaps you may say that this is a distinction -without a

difference, but in an official document it is as well to be accurate. The north

Emigeatiox. coast climate of Queensland is suli-tropical rather than tropical. Those,
(Mr. Deiikiu.) however, are minor matters. But the fact is, anyone reading that circular
would l)e discouraged, or would be likely to be discouraged, and certainly
those who persist go out under serious misapprehension. They ought to be
warned of the climate, which is extremely trjnng to men not accustomed
to a hot sini and close atmosphere. The cane work is perfectly healthy ;
but as the dense cane shrub shuts out the breeze in its midst, that makes
cane cutting moist and uncomfortable work. Still, as I have said, some of
the linest specimens of manhood that we possess are to be seen there. Some
of these men 1 have spoken to personally, and they make nothing of their
labour. I do not wish to push that too far. We have not sufficient knowledge
yet to fix the i^erceutage of average labourers who would choose this Avork.
But 1 have spoken to men engaged in the actual task of cutting, and they
have assured me — and they have no reason to mislead --that they find it not
more laborious than many classes of work which they do elsewhere.

Coming back to the circular, and apologising for my long digression, I
say that is not the way in which a Government office ought to co-operate
with a Colony desiring immigrants. So far as we are concerned we desire
the truth to be stated — the whole truth and nothing but the truth — but it
is to be stated in such a manner as not to convey misapprehensions. It is
to be stated in some way that will not discourage all the Agents-General
concerned, as the EmigTation Board has done. There will always be a certain
proportion of people who come from Great Britain wlio will lie to some extent
at all events dissatisfied with their colonising experience. Until they leave
their OAvn country they do not know how much they are attached to its special
conditions, to their old relationships, ties, and memories, and they are very
apt to take an miduly dissatisfied view of their new country, simply because
it is not a replica of the ohl country, with the customs and undertakings with
which they are familiar. An allowance always has to be allowed for that
margin, which is to be found in any country to \vhicli there has been any
immigration. On the other hand, speaking broadly, not only for Australia,
but for the whole of the dominions, we say that immigrants -will find
conditions inore closely approximating to those in Great Britain there than
they will under any other flag. They will find Governments, business relations,
and social conditions much nearer to those they have left than they can hope
to find anywhere else. Consequently, we suggest that the Imperial Govern-
ment should adapt some more effective form of instructing those who are
about to emigrate and in a far more adequate way than this circular, if it
be a fair sample, has done. The statements made should 1)e complete and
balanced, instead of being incomplete and unbalanced. The emigrants from
Great Britain should, as far as possible be equipped with official statements
which can be furnished from every State giving all the details of life and
living, prices, and every other particular, so that there may be no misap-
prehension whatever as to the state of afi'airs into which the new comer will
be laxmched. Up to now we have not properly imitated the splendid example
of Canada. We have neither coped with immigration on the same scale, nor
provided for the reception of immigrants in the manner in which they have
set an example; but that is being remedied. Innnigrants to Australia no
longer find themselves left to look after themselves. They are met on
landing, sui^plied with information, and, as far as possible, assisted in every
way to make their homes. Eveiw State of Australia gives exceptional
advantages for land settlement. They make advances upon improvements
as these are made by the settlers, the Crown, of course, retaining still its
right to the land, subject to the fulfilment of its conditions, which are verv

161

light nnd easy, l>y the iiiiiuigraiit. The Crown still being the gioun<l Sixth Day.
landlord, so to speak, for the time, is able to advance to settlers money 25 April 1907.

which enables them to build their houses, anil fenee and improve their ,

property, and to assist them in clearing the land. They now get a welcome, i^n'i^HATioN.
and every encouragement. We think therelore that the least to be expected (^Ir. Dcakiu.)
is that a fair view of these facts should l)e put before all intending emigrants
so that, when each makes his clioice, he may know wliat Australia has to offer.
If he keeps within the Empire we have nothing more to say. if he should
leave it we regard him as a loss. We look upon emigi-atiou to foreign
countries as draining the life blood of the Knipire. \\"e cannot consent to see
people pass away from it who ought to remain upholding its Hag.

iSirJOSKPlI WARD: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, f would like to say
a few words upon this matter. New Z(>alan<i is in rather a different position
from Australia. 1 think what Mr. Dcakin has said with regard to Australia
in its general application ai^plies to New Zealand, but there is one important
distinction, and that is that happily we have not a " coloured labour " question.
It does not troTd)h' us as a reality in New Zeahuid ; in Australia it does.
And from Avhat T know of my own knowledge and have seen and heard from
people in Australia, my opinion on the black laliour question is similar to that
of Mr. Deakin, that wliite labour could do all the work in Australia thai
black labour is now doing. Though there have been many statements made
to the contrary by people, that is the general feeling of the people of
Australia, and ]S[ew Zealand most heartily endorses it, and 1 siip])ort
Mr. Deakin in that respect most thoroughly.

In New Zealand we are in a tlifferent position. We have been cariying
out a system of innuigration for a nundjer of years, Ijut have been doing it
upon a scale and upon a system that I should not like to see departed from.
The principle suggested or the proposal indicated in the memorandiun from
the Secretary of State for the Colonies about State-aided emigrants from (ireat.
Britain, is one which we would require to approach very carefidly indeed,
for the reason that I believe the troul)les in the matter of an excess of
people that you have to meet in England implies that the majority of those
who seek to be helped out of your country, or a great nuuiy of them, would be
the class that luider ordinaiy conditions you do not care to retain. What
I mean to say by that is that the class of people, if they were of a superior
class, that you woxdd want to help out in large lunnbers to oiu* countiy, are
the very people you ought to want to keep for yourselves. If you are going \
to have a system of State-aided emigrants to the self-governing Colonies, \
unless w'e had the right of exanu'nation and selection before they left here —
which right, if you Avere giving State-aid or a large portion of that aid, I
presume you would want to retain in yoiu' own hanils the inference is
we might get people imported into our countiy, or a portion of them, whom
we would not care to have coming in in either small t)r large nundiei-s.
I am not for a moment presmning to nuike any reflection upon probably
the most estimable class of people who nuiy want to go to " fresh fields
and pastures new " to try their fortunes there. Ibit experiiuice some years
ago in New Zealand — and we can only look at this matter in the light
of what we suffered many years ago — was in the nature of what I have?
endeavoured to describe, nanudy, that we got a very large section of people
who were most vmdesiral)le ; and our Colony woulil certainly not be prepared
to go into anything like a wholesale scheme of innuigration upon lines of
that kind.

The position that New Zeahmd takes up is that we are glad to receive
immigrants if they are of a suitable class and have some capital ; otherwise
we are not. Innuigration of that character is assisted ncnv Ijy the Colony

A 4H6IW. L

Ward.)

uy2

Sixth Day. througli the High ( Commissioner in the case of British emigrants, and
25 April 1907. we are very particular in the matter and the High Commissioner of the
— — Colony here is most careful and thorough, he does not make a super-

Emiuratio.n. ticial examination, but a thorough examination into every instance of people
^"'^w'^^j'n''^ desiring to come to our countr3\ If they are accepted, then we pay a
sufficient portion of the passage money to reduce the passage to New Zealand
to 1 0?. We are in the position of being the most distant of the self-governing
Colonies from England, and the passage to our country is probably a good
deal higher than it is to the more fortunate Colonies that are close to the Old
Land. We make a reservation that each person we assist miLst have some
money, and we guard ourselves by doing that in order to ensure that, in the
ordinary sense, he would be able to look roimd for himself after he has
arrived in our Colony with a vipAv to obtaining suitable employment, or
embarking in anything he desires. We fixed the amount at one time at 50L,
but have since reduced it to 20L We do not make it a hard and fast rule
that that is the only class of immigi-ation we assist. We have a system of
nominated immigration by which the people of ovu* country make their own
.selection, and then upon their arrival in our Colony the immigrants are
taken in hand by their own friends and in that respect the State
r)epartments are relieved of any direct assistance to them in the way
of helping them to find employment. We also in such a case give a contri-
bution to the passage money to reduce it to 10?. That we do with all lines
of steamers trading to our Colony. I may say that in two years from the Old
Country itself under a system of selected immigration. (i,632 people came to
New Zealand, and In-ought with them the siun of 275,046/. So, while anxious
to see the people in our country increase legitimately, we are working rather
from a different standpoint to that which I take it the Old World or Canada and
Australia are doing. We are working in the direction of getting some of
your people who have a limited amount of means into our Colony with a
certain amount of capital to ensure that they become good colonists, and
be a valuable asset to our country generally. To enable those G,(i32 people
to come out to New Zealand we paid 22,382L to the steamship companies to
help them.

Quite outside of those whom the High Connnissioner selects and sends to
our country, and of the nominated system to which I have referred, we have a
class who come to Zealand of their own accord, who are quite welcome to come
to our country without means at all, or with means, as the case may be. From
that source we get the larger proportion of those who come to New Zealand and
settle there. Within a period of years we have had over 50,00(> people coming
in that way. An examination into the statistics of our Colom^ shows that
over a period of years Ave have retained them permanently, and we have
lost only 1,000 against 00,000 coming in (hiring that period of years.
In our coiuitry, which is expanding, and which requires to have out-
side suitaljle laljour ii-om time to time drawn to it, we are Avorking upon
the principle of gradual expansion and gradual increase suitable to the
requirements of our people, and Ave are prepared to assist upon the lines I
have indicated in order to bring that about. I think 1 am right in saying
that indiscriminate emigration under the auspices of any organisation in the
( )ld Country Avould not be approved in New Zealand. Here I would remark
that there is an opening for farmers Avith a little capital, and also for domestic
servants, but I hesitate to advise unskilled labourers Avho have neither means
nor vocations, to come out to our country in large numbers, for the reason
that Ave do not AA-aut to haA-e the Avrong impression conveyed which Mr. Deakin
has referred to. Whatever the position in our country we desire the truth to
be stated for the guidance of those Avho desire to come to our countiy. We
flo not Avant a large lunnber of unskilled labourers (-oming t(j New Zealand,
because Avith the possibility of the dislocation of the labour market, there

in'A

nu^ht be a tendency to crcute Irum tinic to time a section ol' tlio>c ulio niiijht
not bo able to get regnlar employment. We are in the pusititxi in our Colony
of fortunately not having imemployed. We have not known the meaning of
" nnemployed " in the or<linary sense for many years, and we want to avoid
anything of the kind. We prefer to have a conuniinity well spread over
our country, fully employed, but to be rather on the side of requiring a
few more to come those re( quired for the use of our farmers and l)usiness
men and for settling the country -than to have an excess with its tendency to
create the troubles that many many years ago we had. What I want to
remark is that New Zealand is quite prt^pared to have placed before it the
suggestions of what is best in the general interest for making provision to
meet the desire suggested by Air. Deakin, of British sul^jects going to oui-
British Colonies. We are quite prepared to consider as favourably as we can,
any proposal for a suitable scheme to Ijringabout what 1 think we all desire, but
it would be quite a wrong impression for me to convey, as the representative of
New Zealand, that we can subscribe to any great scheme for the wholesale
immigration of people, which the country itsell' uiight not be prepared to
absorb within reasonable time upon their arrival.

I therefore wish to say that any proposal that is made for a large scheme
of immigration, would require to be very carefully considered by the New
Zealand Government and Parliament before I could subscribe to it.

Upon one point referred to by Air. Deakin, I would remark that while
those who are anxious to send people away from the Old Land, may desire the
co-operation of the Colonial Governnients, and while we might be anxious to
have British people placed in British Colonies, there is the very importam
factor that exists, that great shipping organisations travelling from here to
America, for instance, can by reduction of fares, and in many ways defeat an
object of that kind. For my own part, while I should be only too glad to
co-operate in, and to see, an ideal scheme, as suggested by Air. i)eakin, of
British subjects living under the British flag, I am afraid we should have
some difficulty in piittiug it into practical operation so long as these other
great countries outside Canada (which has been doing an inmieuse amount of
good in that respect") are prepared, owing to their closeness to the Old Workl.
to give advantages which we cannot give in the matter of passage nione>-.
I do not know whether Mr. Burns has any fixed notions of a general scheme
which we coidd co-operate in, but I have thought it desirable to put on record
the views tliat I hold on behalf of New Zealand. We want to help people
to come to our country on legitimate lines. We do not want to have them
coming out in excessive numbers, though the country has absorbed all who
have come up to now without any difficulty, and, while we want to assist
generally, we want to prevent a rush of peo]>le under mistaken impressions
of there being limitless em])loymeut available in our country.

Si I til Day.
25 April 1907.

Emiguatioii.

( Sir Juiicph
Ward.)

Dr. JAMESON : Lord l^lgin, and gentlemen, after what Mr. Deakin and
Sir Joseph Ward have said, I do not think there is much to be said on the
general subject. Of course, 1 believe the whole Conference is absolutely at
one upon the first portion of the resolution. With regard to Cape Colony
and I think my colleagues will say South iVJ'rica— we, unfortunately, are
rather in the reverse position at present owing to our late troubles.

Mr. DEAKIN: Only momentarily.

Dr. JAMESON : Mr. Deakin has been speaking ol emigration from this
country and immigration into our countries. The fact of the matter is we
have been engaged in promoting emigration from our country antf

L 2

164

Sixth TMy. immigTation into the old country. Still, we are very miicli interested iu the
25 April 1907. subject, though not immediately or actively interested at the present moment,
but I have no doubt, as Mr. Deakin says, it is onlj- momentary, and when my
Emigration. f,-iend General BDtha has firmly established or re-established prosperity in
(Dr. Jameson.) ^j^p source of the mass of our wealth in the north of our country, we will
then actively go into the ci[uestion of emigration, because there is plenty of
room to fill up in both directions — both from the labour point of view, when
that wealth has accumulated again from the North, and also from the land
settlement point of view. At the present moment as a fact, we are only on
the very verge of close settlement, but later, I have not the least doubt that
close settlement will take place in South Africa, as it is taking place so
largely in Canada and I believe even now in Australia. We believe in our
country ; we believe that the wealth which is under the land ought to have a
chance to come up and be made applicable to the increasing of the
agricultural prospects of our country so that the country may hold a very
large population.

With regard to labour coming into the country we cannot congratulate
ourselves like Sir Joseph Ward that we have no coloured labour. I was very
much, interested in what Mr. Deakin said with regard to the perfect certainty
that the coloured labour, in Avhat appeared to be, from his description,
circumstances as trying as anything we have in South Africa, was absolutely
beaten out by the white. I must say that in our experiments iu the country
I come from we have not found that. We have found that practically a
certain class of labour has always to be done l)y the coloured man. If we
coidd believe that we, like Northern Queensland are going to replace the
black l;)y the white labour, thea we should have an enormous field for
immigration into our country, but from Mr. Deakin's own figures, giving the
wages at 1?. or 30s. a day, it looks to me, unless it is a very very prosperous
industry, that if you have to pay so much, it is not very attractiA^e to white
labour, and it is quite possilsle the industry will not last, if it is on a large
scale, at 11. or oOs. a day. We should get white men to do labour in our
country where the black does it at present, but it has actuallj^ been tried and
failed. If we get a navvy out there, we pay the navvy under the circum-
stances in which the labour takes place — not under ground, but on the
surface in mining work — 10s. a day in the summer time ; but he does exactly
half the amount of work that the black man at three pounds a month does.

Mr. DEAKIN : My figures, as I said, were for contract labour, not
day wages.

Dr. JAMES(JN : We could easily adopt day labour or contract labour.
It does not matter which system we adopt, we find that the white men cannot
compete with the black under certain conditions. However, we hope in the
future to have plenty of room for many more white laboui'ers in the country,
and especially we hope to have still more room for the agriculturists on close
settlements when Ave get our ii-rigation and other problems settled.

With regard to the practical point, the onlj' thing brought forward by
Mr. Deakin was that the Imperial (Government at the present moment hag
rather prevented than helped emigration. I quite agree with Mr. Deakin in
what he has said aljout the report of the Emigration Council or Board. I
suppose really what we all have to do in that direction is to follow the example
of Canada, and practically manage the emigration for ourselves, both on this
side and on the other side. We are all pretty good at advertising, but I think
Canada is pre-emineatly good in advertising their country on this side. If
there is an Emigration Board, I tliiuk that it should be on the lines suggested

165

by -Mr l)eiikiii, giving tlu' iieccssjiiy warning, and at tlu- same time pointing sixili Uny.

out the, necessary advantages. 25 April 1907.

As I said, this is not an active (jncstion for ns at present. We hope later

on Ave may henelit l)y whatever conchisions the Conference conies to in the HjiKiUATiox.

way of helping towards emigration from the Motherland into the Colonies as (.'>'• .linn'-on.)
against the rest of the wt)rld.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : Lord Elgin, ami gentlemen, I agree on general lines
witli what has been stated liy my colleague from tlie Cape Colony. Owing to
tlie large inHux of men during the war, and owing to the great (U'st ruction of
property and wealth during the progress of the war, at the end of that crisis
we found South Africa with a large floating po])»dation which we could not
immediately absorl) owing to the condition of tilings in which we were, and
we have really been suffering from a large number of men being unai)le to get
immediate cmi^loyment.. I do believe the day will come, and I hope to see the
ihiy, when we sliall be able to alisorb a large number of whites from these
islands. We are now trying to reorganise the whole position of affairs over
there, and more or less to get our house in order, after what I have been
ilescribing as the losses contingent on the war. I also am very much
impressed Avith Avhat has been said by Mr. Deakin here which goes to show
that the white man can hold his o\Ani under certain conditions against the
black. I hold veiy strong views in that respect, and do believe that the
white man under the incentive of contract labour will be able to do a great
deal more than ever has been attempted yet by white labour in South Africa.
\Ve in South Africa have, perhaps, sull'ered, from a ijlelhora of blai-k or
coloured unskilled labour, which in my humble opinion has been misapplied
in regard to numbers, and in regard to which there has been a vast waste of
labour owing to tlie unorganised metliods we have adopted for employing
this labour. I do not coniine myself to any particular industiy over there,
but men are applied in far greater numbers, as regards results, than any
other country that employs entirely white, more or less skilled, labour.
That is so at eveiy turn in the Colony that 1 represent. 1 will not
commit myself to numbers, but you find three or four black fellows being
useil where, with skilletl intelligent white labour, one man eouhl do it. That
was impressed upon my mind most strongly in my visit to Australia, and
there being able to see how they were managing there with laboiw-saving
appliances, and returning to my Colony, I realised how we were wasting
labour with our crude forms of nnorganised labour, owing, to a veiy large
extent, to the vast amount of unskilled labour that was at our doors. Insteatl
of using brains and capital to save labour, we were piling on unskilled labour
to do the work regardless of cost, and perhaps in many instances the result of
production with that unskilled labour was really more costly than the products
of the countries w'orking with labour skilled and properly organised. We
find in many of our industries w'e are being beaten byproducts from Australia
(which w^e can produce quite as well and in quite as large quantities),
owing to ovu' methods and wasteful means of carrying on those imhistries.
I do hope that the day will not be long delayed before the re-organisation
of our economic conditions we shall be able to absorl) a larger amount of
white labour. We are doing a little now in that direction in the wav of
assisted passages. The Govermnent has contracts with steamers which nave
brought down the passage money, and our Government contributes half of
that amount in the event of any employer applying to the Government for
any particular selected emigrant on this side of the water. Owing, however,
to the present surplus of labour, this provision is temj^orarily suspended.

I have nothing further to add. We feel that we have to reorganise our
methods and our conditions to bring ourselves up to the position of advance-
ment of the other Colonies of the Empire. I believe, sincerely, we shall
A 4,si;i;s. L :i

166

Sixth Day. succeed, and, if we do, we have almost as large a field there for the settlement
25 April 1907. of men of our colour and race as the other Dependencies with the Empire. I

will not say it is so, perhaps, as regards Canada, because there they seem to

Emigration. have such a vast area of arable land that we cannot compare ourselves to it ;
(Mr. F. K. Moor.) jj^t given area for area, I do believe we shall be able to altsorb proportionately
our share of emigration from this land.

General BOTHiV : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, in the Transvaal our
y)osition is ahnost more difficult than in any other of the South African
Colonies. The unfortunate circumstances in the past have dislocated many
matters there, but the Grovernment sinct the conclusion of peace is doing its
best to encourage immigration into the Transvaal. During the War many
people covae to the Transvaal who are not suitable for immigration purposes,
and who do not wish to remain there. We have unfortunately a place like
•lohannesburg where people want to get rich very soon, and that is where the
dirticulty lies with us in the Transvaal. I have a great faith in South Africa
and in the Transvaal as a country for a large population, especially as regards
agriculture. But it will take some time before we can put this thing on a
proper basis. 1 hope that we shall be able to very strongly support the
immigration of white people into the Transvaal, because if there is one thing
that we require in South Africa it is a large white population. x\t present
we want people who have some means. We have to-day thousands of people
in the country who have really no work to do and the Government have to employ
them on road making and similar matters to make them earn their daily bread,
'llien imfortunately there is the lamentable difference of opinion between whites
and whites on the labour question. Now my Government are of opinion that we
should as far as practicable encourage the immigration of white workmen into
the coiuitry. The l^iggest immigration that we have had into the Transvaal has
been that of Chinese, and I think we have between 50,000 and 60,000 China-
men still in the country. I hope that on this question too we shall be able to
arrive at a clear understanding, and that in future instead of importing yellow
labour we shall have immigration of Avhite people into the country, because
we feel that if we have a considerable white inmiigration into the country the
money which they earn will be spent afterwards in building up the
agriculture of the country. We have got any amount of scope and space, antl
we think Ave can bear a population of millions of people. The thing that we
lack is money to carry out this project. It is a dry country. We must set
large irrigation schemes on foot and before we have made some such
arrangements it will be impossible for us to do anything further. 1 may say
that my Government have under their earnest consideration to-day the
question of encouraging more white people into the country and on to the
farins and t)n to the land.

Mr. DEAKIN : Might I point out this : sj^eaking in an impromptu
fashion to-day, I did not read one document which I ought to have read with
reference to emigration, though I alluded to it. A Mr. Hughes, who
represents the employers in Queensland who desire to obtain white laliour
for sugar cutting, wrote to the Emigration Board and I referred to their
reply with(Mit quoting it. He forwarded the conditions to them. The
conditions are for the obtaining of labourers, and provide that preference
must lie given to British people under all circumstances. Only failing th^n
can application be made to the Continent. I am happy to hear indirectly
that we hope to obtain a sufficiency from this coimtry without applying at
all to the ( 'Ontinent so far as the Queensland Government is concerned.
However, what they are offered is not contract rates, though they may take
these if they like afterwards, but regular terms, which range from 22.s> Qd. to
2os. a week with rations and accommodation, and for harvesting, 25s. a Ave'

167

Avith rations, or an alternative for contract enttin<; by .nntnal agropinont. *^'''''' ^>^J-

01 conrse the prices earned by contract cutting must not be measured by l'^J April U»07.

the price for clay hibour. They are the earnings of exceptionally skilled anti "

capable men, just as some of our shearers always earn twice or thrice as ', " '

much as the ordinary shearers because they have a special aptitmle. The '*^''^' ''"'""•^

reply of the Committee was even more direct and unqualilied than their

published circular, l^ecause in answer, Mr. Henry Laml)ert, signing as

Chainnaii, on the ir)th .March last says : "My Comnntte(> do not consider that

" emigrants from this country are at all suited for work on sugar planta-

" tions " — the whole sugar industry is swept out- "and they woidd certainly

" feel it their duty to warn them against undertaking such work in the

" tropics." I think explicitness is a great virtue ; it is one of the gi-eatest

official virtues, and there is no doubt al)out the jKM'fect explicitness of that

statement. The Emigration Ollice feel it their duty, owing to their own want

of knowledge, actually to warn British einigi-ants against undertaking the work

which is now being undertaken successfully by several thousand white men

this season. Tlie industry is very pros[)erous ; the contract rates I referred

to are exceptionally high. If the whole iudustrj' were conducted on that

basis. Dr. Jameson's criticism would be quite justified. The average man is

on daily wages. I mentioned those high rates because they tend to withdraw

men from the daily wage system to the contract system, in Avhich, as a rule.

they get better results than on the ilaily system. Otherwise they would not

tmdertake it. Only exceptionally qualified men get the woudeiiul results

mentioned, which are of gi'eat value, although they are rare, because they

operate as a stimulus to attract men to the industiy, and as a stimulus to the

men employed in the industry to put forth their best efforts. When others

see a man able to make IL a day for w^eeks in succession, and return home

with the result, that helps to draw people in Australia to this industrj-.

Undoubtedly in every part of it this work will be accomplished by white

labour only. We have enough direct experience now to be quite satisiied that

it can be done. There is no doubt about that. Those exceptional terms

attract people to it. The average men do not earn so much, but the work is

being done efficiently by white labour to-day — more than half of it. If my

memory serves me, T think nearly three parts of the work will be done by

white labour this seast)ii. Under these circmnstances, for a Government

.Agency to absolutely warn men against unikn-taking work which men are

already doing, and (loing most profitably, certainly pt)ints to a very strange

contiition of affair>.

;Mr. BURNS : Lord Elgin and gentlemen, the Conference has dei-ided
unanimously to adopt the first paragraph, that "it is desirable to encourage
" Bi-itish emigrants to proceed to British Colon i<>s rather than to foreign
" countries." Against that first paragrapli the Government have no oljjection
to make, because it practically c-onnotes a lineof action that has been taken not
only l)y the Government but by all the subordinate authorities throughout the
United Kingdom during the last 15 or 2U years with regard to the direction
of, advice to, antl guidance of intending settlers in new countries from the
Mother Coimtry.

We are discussing the second paragraph now, which says :" That the
" Imperial Government be requested to co-operate with any Colonies desiring
" inunigrants in assisting suitaljle persons to emigrate." That, of course,
brings us face to face with i)ractical methods and proliable financial
schemes, and on that it is advisable that the view of the Government should
be in the main expressed. P>efore it is expressed it is advisable that the
point raised by Mr. Deakin should be met, and I trust mutually saUsfaclordy
jpleared away.^ The Government think that as so many Colonies are all
mpeting for emigrants from the same source it is very very difficult to give

L t

168

Sixth Day. financial assistance to one without more or less damnifying the others. Up
25 April 1907. tiU now the Govermnent at home have considered it best, both to intending
^ settlers and emigrants, above aU to be fair to all the Colonies, and that the

MIGRATION. agencies on this side should be directed to give the intending emigrant all the
( r. ul•ll^.) essential facts in forming his mind and in advising him as to where best he
can take his labour, and adapt his industrial aptitude to any particular
Colonial demand that for the moment is seeking his labour. Mr. Deakiu will
pardon me if I say that he has rather misunderstood, and I do not think
sufficiently appreciated, the extent to which the Board of Emigration have done
this particidar form of Avork. If ]\Ir. Deakin will look — as he often j^robaljly
has looked, but I Avould ask him to look again — at many of the really excellent
specimens of literature that are issued by the Board of Emigration on this
side, he will find we ahnost vie Anth Canada both in the versatility and the
excellence of our adA'ice to emigi-ants and settlers. I can assure Mr. Deakin
and the Conference that every step is taken by the Board of Emigration to
give all the people in this countrj- Avho intend to settle elscAA^here, facts such
as cannot be challenged, because the Board realise that much of the
diminution that in recent years has taken place in the number of emigrants
from the Mother Country to some of the Australian Colonies, is due in the past
either to ]Drivate, public, or semi-public agencies misrepresenting the Australian
fields of labour, and to this information being allowed to go uncontradicted
or imcorrected. The result is that suspicion of certain Colonial fields of
laboixr has groAvn up Avhich can only be removed 1)y the Board of Emigration
itself being almost painfully precise in acquainting people Avith Avhat the
real conditions are. I do not think that in the j)articular Queensland case
anything more than that has been done. Mr. Deakin was rather severe
upon the Board of Emigration for what I believe is after all only an
exceptional incident, and one that I trust may never occiir again. I would
like to point out to Mr. Deakin, that the circulars and handljooks issued
by the Emigration Office, AA-hich are nimierous and circidate through many
ramifications, are never issued before the proofs of those publications
are previously sent to the Agents-General themselves ; and in many cases
the Agents-General are asked, and they are A-ery Avilling in the majority
of cases to respond, to reA'ise the actual proofs and correct the draft literature
and information Avhich is submitted to them. I can only say Avith regard
to the Queensland incident, that there the Home Government, through its
Emigration Department, did Avhat I think was nothing but bare justice to
people Avho Avere likely to be attracted to this particular form of lalx)ur. If
Mr. Deakin Avill alloAV me, I Avould like to read the first notice in March. It
saj's : " Free passages by the Orient Royal Mail Line steamers are uoav offered
" to bo)ia fide farm labourers, and their families, to whom employment is
" guaranteed on arriA'al at fidl Avages current in the State. The Queensland
" Govermnent, in addition to the passage, undertake to take care of such
" persons until they are safe on the farms Avhere work has been arranged
" for them. Notification has already been given by the GoA^ernment to intend-
" ing employers that farm labourers AviU not be indented imless the Avages
" offered are considered satisfactorj^ by the Executive Government of the State ;
" information as to this sum can noAv be obtained at the Agent-General's
" Office, London. It Avill probably save many applicants time and trouble to
" be informed that as the Government are indenting this labour lor employers
" in the agricultural industry, there is an implied promise that the labour Avill
" be up to the standard of an ordinary agricultural labourer, and that for
" the concession of a free passage and constant employment on arrival,
" applicants must come strictly Avithin these conditions and must be Avhat
" is generally knoAA-n as farm lal)ourers, i.e., healthy men Avho liiive been
" accustomed to work at some form of farming operations." I respectfully
submit that that is a clear, bald, and truthful presentation of the conditions

KiO

under which the lahoiir was to l)e employed there. On April the 12t.h, sixth Duj.

shortly afterwards, the Board of Eiui^iation sent out a revise, wiiich was as 2.'> Ajuil M<)T,

follows : " The Queensland Government has a system of free ])assao;es to — -

" huiia fide farm lalujurers and their families who are ap|)r()ved liy tlie A^ent- KMi.iuvnos.

" (ieneral in London, and guarantees them employment in the Slate at full 'Mr. ISunis.)

wages ; but up to the present the indents for such passages have been
" limited to men willing to work on the sugar farms in the north. The
" climate there is hot and moist." I gather that ^Mr. Deakin expressed the
same view.

Mr. DEAKIX: Y

es.

.Mr. 13URNS : " The climate there is hot and moist in the rainy season,
" from January to March, and hot and dry at other times, and" is very
" different from that to which farm labourers are accustomeil in this
" country. It is very questionable, therefore, whether they would Ijc
" able to work on arrival under the tropical conditions that prevail
'' in North Queensland. The work of harvesting anil crushing cane is
" still more trying, and is paid for at a higher rate. The free passage
" emigrant need not engage in it unless he wishes ; and indeed the
'• work is not suitable for persons from this country Avho have not resided
" for some time in the tropics." I venture to say that both the (original
tlocument and the revision sent out by the Board of Emigration are in accord
with the statement made by "Sh. Deakin himself here. The Board of
Emigration thought it desirable that the peo]de going to this particular
tropical sugar belt should not be in any way under any misapprelieusion as
to the kind of labour that they would have to do, because our experience here
is that one grundjliug, sore-headeil, dissatisfied emigrant in a field of labour,
when he has been attracted there tlirough too glowing a description of
what would happen to him when he arrived there, does more harm to the
general flow and direction of emigration to that and other fields of labour
tlian anything you can possiby conceive. The Board of Emigration. I think,
with fairness and impartiality, decided that it is far better to tell the
emigrants even the unpleasant truth, if it be the truth, as to the conditions
of labour under which he can be employed, than to buoy them up with rosy
descriptions that cannot be realised, of which, Avhen connnunit-ited back
as it always is by letter tlirough the discontented one's complaints, the
effect is to damage that particular district for 10, 15, or 20 years. The case
quoted by Mr. Deakin is an evidence in my judgment of the great care
and truthfulness and courage that the Boanl of Emigration has shown in
this particular case. I may say that the Cxoverument of Queensland have
expressed their appreciation so much of circidars and reports of the Board
of Emigration, that only recently this year they have ordered ^o.dOd
copies of the Board of Emigration's Handbook on the Colony. I can t)idy
say that in my judgment the Board of Emigration were well within
their rights. It would have been a permanent injustice to the Qut>enslaiiii
labour field unless they had made their revise. I am convinced that this
incident will still further induce the Board of Emigration to place themselves
more closely in touch with the Agents-General before issuing any iidormatiou.
or making any correction, or rectifying any mis-statement, anil they will do
their best to instruct the settler and the emigrant to find work imder con-
ditions that will be beneficial to him and we trust not detrimental to the
Colony to which he goes.

Having dealt with that inciilent, may I say a word or two— because it is
pertinent — on the general question as to practical means. Mr. Deakin said
that there Avas an obligation to direct actively to the Colonies the surplus

170

Sixth Day. people of tliB Mother Countiy, and I think he suggested passively to divert

25 Ajtril 1907. people who intended to go elsewhere to places Avithin the British Empire.

I can only say that the emigrant decides this in the main practically for

MK.KATK.N. ijiniself, and to the extent that we would over-persuade him in making up

( 1-. Biiiii^.j j^-g ^^[j^(\ ggy^ j-y gQ ^Q (Janada as against Australia or New Zealand, to that

extent we would give his jnind a bias in a direction that we ought not.

Mr. DEAKIN : Xo one suggested that.

Mr. BURXS : Xo, the business, we think, of the Home Goverijment is that
as all the Colonies are competing for emigrants and settlers practically of the
same type, what we have to do is to take the claims as set forth by the Agents-
General themselves who want those claims for labour submitted to the Old
Country. It is the business of the Agents-General and the Home Government
to co-operate with each other as to where, how, and in what best way that
information can be placed before intending settlers and emigrants, and I can
assure the Conference that efficient though the steps of the Board have been
in the past, we hope considerably to improve upon our present methods and
agencies by means of which the connnon desire of this Conference can be
secured.

Xow, may I say a word about the type of emigrant. I know that
Mr. Deakin, and also Dr. Jameson, Mr. Moor, General Botha, and Sir Joseph
Ward, and I know it fi"om practical observation in Canada on the subject, —
want tbe same type of settler and emigrant. They want the farmer, they want
the good skilled labourer, they want the skilled handy-man, they want the
domestic servant, and, in many cases, they want the platelayer, and the heavy
lifter, and the man whose physicpie is adapted to the opening pioneer work of
constructing public and private works on a big scale in new countries. You
also want skilled artizans, mainly of the building trades. Xow, in this
particular matter, the Colonies, to a great extent, can be helped by
the Old Country, because at this moment we have, 1 am sorry to say,
through reasons that I need not go into, a very large number of
men in the building trade who are slack of employment. We also have,
proportionately to the Colonies, more surplus unskilled labourers than any of
the Colonies possess, and it does seem to me that if those men in the building-
trades, who are a type of men that many of the Colonies pre-eminentlj-
want in opening up new countries, were more closely informed as to
the colonial requirements of labour, we shoidd see a very consider-
able number of the men of the building and similar trades seeking-
work in Colonies where their work would perhaps be for the moment
better, and perhaps ultimately more regular than it is now. But the
supply of labour must flow without preference or pressure on the choice
of the individual emigrant to wherever he chooses to go. It is interesting
that this Conference should know that in the last two or three years when
emigration from the Old Country has gone up enormously by all the agencies,
whether it be distress committees, or boards of giiardians, or private or public
bodies, or trade unions, or any other association, and there are nearly
1,000 agencies in this country taking directly or indirectly an active part in
sending people out of the country, mainly to the Colonies ; 95 or 97 percent,
of the total people that have left through private, public, or semi-public,
agencies the Mother Country for external Dominions have gone to Canada
or to the other Colonies. But the enormous volmne of emigration that has
gone to the United States, relatively is not as great as it was, and is rapidly
diminishing. For instance, only a few years ago, and this Sir Wilfiid
Laurier will be pleased to hear, in 1888 Canada had 11 per cent, of the
emigrants that left the Mother Countiy, and America had 72 per cent. ; to-day
Canada has 31 per cent, and America i7 per cent, of the total. So that the-

object this Conferenct' has at heart, namely, the training and (hrt'cting the Sixtli Duv.

surphis popuhition from the United Kingdom to British Colonies is being 25 April 1907.

attained without too mueh organisation and without too much olivious

regulation. Kmicuation.

The other point is tlii^ : 1 trust that this Conference will realise what ^ ^' ''"'"
my experience suggests, and what I think the facts inform us upon, which is
that over-zealous attempts to get people to emigrate very frequently do more
harm than good. They very often attract the wrong type of people to the
right place, and the result is that disappointment ensues, aufl th<' iiennaiient
steady How of regidar emigration is damaged thereby, i trust that the
Conference will agree with us that emigration by settlement of comnuinities
of men is not a desirable thing. The northern farmer in another connection
said : " The poor in a loomp is ])ad," l)ut the poor in a lump taken from one
country and from special districts and of a particular class to another is
worse. 1 do not care whether you emigrate bodies of rich men from England
to Canada or Australia, even if you can get them all to live togetliei- in
theii- new home, which is dou])tfnl, that in itself is not so beneficial as it
would be if they were spread over a large area. In any case, to take
large communities of men from one district of Kngland and to dump
them down in any Colonj' is, in my judgment, a mistake. What we have to
do is to guide and direct the individual, let him go where his aptitude inclines
him to go, but anj' attempt, if Dr. Jameson will pardon me for saying it, of
close settlement, of laud settlement, of settlement by communities of men such
as philanthropic associations have attempted in some parts of Canada and
America, is, in mj' judgment, a mistake, as experience will prove. Outside
the Doukhobors, in Canada, 1 have leai-nt of no case of a commnuity of
emigi-aiits that was at all worth the money spent upon it, or which in anyway
justdieij the enlluisiasm or the ho^jes raised on its behaK.

I 'r. .lAMESON : Close settlement does not mean large settlements going
out. it coidd be very well carried out bj' individual emigrants.

i\Ir. Bl'RNS : Yes, 1 know, but that is a very risky experiment. 1 mean
there should not be 1,00U men from one part of England taken to some
particidar part in any of the Colonies. It is best to mix them up. They have
different tastes, they have different habits, and the tendency of these settle-
ments, however large, or, however small, is for them to become a first-rate
collection of social and i)olitical cranks, ending in failure and disappointment,
and waste of the money spent upon them.

Dr. JAMESOX : Excuse me, there is some misapprehension as to what 1
mean by close settlement. The fact of the matter is, in South Africa our laud
is in large areas, and it is the large fanns of 2.000 or .">,0()0 acres, and so on,
which exist until we get irrigation, as mentioned by ( iencral Botha, so that
we can, like in Canada and in Australia, J. believe, get a family to live on
160, or 20, or 10 acres even. That is my idea of close settlement.

.Mr. BURNS : I uiulerstand the point is, that iu a tropical or semi-
tropical climate agriculture can only be carried on by irrigation an(l more or
less artificial means, aiul you have more or less to pack yonr people iu certain
areas, because there the irrigation scheme is. That 1 do not object to, but to
ask that a certain block of population should be taken, or a certain class of
population should be taken from the old country for that jiarticular work, in
my judgment will ultinuitely prove to be a mistake. It leads to industrial,
social, mental and moral, disadvantages that we need not enlarge upon at this
particular moment.

172

.Sixtli Day. This brings me to the point as to what the form of the co-operation can

25 April 1907. be. The settled j)olicy of Parliament, it is well I should inform the Conference,

has been not to vote State money for emigration. Although local l:)odies,

E.MIGKATIOX. ijoards of g-uardians, distress committees, and others, have power and exercise
(Jlr. Burns.) j^.^ ^g j j^^^yp indicated, to vote public and voluntary money to emigration and
settlement, Parliament has always been against a State sul>sidy for emigration
to any or to all of the Colonies. I may give an instance of the kind of thing
that is done. Under the Unemployed Workmen's Act the distress committees
in the year 1906 sent out 3,875 persons at a cost of 71. per head, part State, part
local, part private mone3\ In 1907 that will be considerably more. The boards
of guardians in the last ten years have sent out 3,588 children, and if I may say
so, these, in my judgment, are perhaps the best form of emigrants and settlers,
looking ahead, that the Colonies could possibly have. Dr. Barnardo's agency has
sent out 18,000, and nothing pleased me more when I was last in Canada than to
hear that of these 18,000 children that had lieeu sent out, 95 per cent. Avere not
only doing well, but were doing first-rate in many cases and more than
satisfied those with Avhom they were settled. It is interesting for us at this
moment to know that even onl}- last year there were 19,000 people in Canada
who wrote to the Canadian Board of Emigration for children, boys and girls,
from the Mother Country. On that some of the gentlemen of this Conference
might say: "But what about their condition?" On that I think this
Conference ought to be assured of this fact that the people who have charge
of them here, whether they be guardians or private or public agencies, do
evei"ything within their power not only to see that the children are physically
fit, but that they are trained and equipped for their new life, and I know no
fomi of diversion of population that would be productive of so much good to
the Colonies and to the Mother Country as an increase in the number of
children going to the new settlements beyond the seas.

I can only say in conclusion that Canada, which has recently given no
assistance towards the cost of passages, has perhaps shoAvn the Mother Country
and some of the other Colonies the way of handling this particular question.
Nothing could be better than the way in Avhich the Canadian Emigration Autho-
rities, by information, by circular and by literature, have done their Avork, and in
so far as the Old Country can live up to Canada in this particular regard,
the Board of Emigration will be disposed to do so. The Colonies represented
here to-day can rest assured that if they care in any form to make any
representation to the Home Government as to AAdiat should he done, the
Board of Emigration, the Local Government Board, and the Board of Trade,,
Avill be only too ready to respond to any suggestion or information they
may give. The re-organisation of the Emigration Board itself is under the
consideration of the Government. The reconnnendation l)y the Settlements
Committee that a .State grant for five years should be passed by the Imperial
Parliament, is under the consideration of His Majesty's Govermiient at the
present time, and my last Avord is that if the Colonies think that any of the
work done by any of the home agencies is of such a character that it may
lie improved upon, the Government Avill be only too pleased to respond to
such advice, suggestion, or information, ahvays relying upon this cardinal
fact that the Old Country cannot be expected to shoAv a preference in
the matter of emigration to any of the Colonies, and Avill do her best to treat
all of them fairly and to bring before intending settlers and emigrants the
real facts of Avhat the Colonies offer them. For the moment lieycmd that the.
Home Government is not disposed to go.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : When this resolution of the Connnonwealth of
Australia Avas first brought to our attention I read here : " That it is
" desirable t(j encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies
" rather than foreign countries. That the Imperial Government be requested

173

to co-operate with auy ( 'oloixies dersiriiif;- iiumi^-ants iu assisting suitable 8ixth Day.

persons to emigrate." As I have stated already the first paragraph, as to 25 April 1907.

which Canada has no dissenting voice, does not require any discussion.

But we thought with regard to the second paragraph, that perhaps it was Emi.;kation.
intended Ijy the Government ol Australia that the Imperial Ciovernment '^^.'' Wilfrid
should be invited to co-operate fiuamially iu a scheme lor bringing '-"""er.)

emigrants to the new Countries beyond the seas. We approach this suljject
from the point of view of Canada, with the statement that we have no
grievance at all. At the present moment we are quite satisfied with our
position in that regard. In fact, we hav<> undertaken ourselves to manage
our own immigration, and so far, we have no reason to complain of the
residt of our efforts ; but of course it goes without saying, that if the Imperial
Government were prejiared to help and assist us financially we would l)e only
too gla<l to co-operate with them. Listening to .Mr. Deakin very carefidly I
did not xmderstand that he had even any such project in his mind. If I
propei;ly appreciated the tenour of his remarks, he rather thought that the
Imperial Government mider e.xistiug circmnstances were not doing all they
might do, or were doing it iu a way which was not satisfactory to the (.Govern-
ment of Australia. For my own ])art T would be glad to hear again from
Mr. Deakin what i)ractical suggestion he has to make to implement what is
contained in this paragraph.

Mr. DEAKIN: Sir WiliViil, our diihculty was when we considered the
schemes that we ourselves woidd like to see adopted, how far we ought to
approach the Imperial Government with any definite suggestion, inasmuch as
they might consider that this implied at all events that we were better judges
of their business than they were. Now we can only claim that at our end of
the immigration movement we are entitled to speak from our own experience
as to what we want. But as to the particular means by which immigration
coidd he fostered here, we have a good deal of hesitation. Our first idea was
a reform of existing methods. I have no personal quarrel with the Emigration
Board. I have spoken upon information supplied me, and am not singling
out the Emigration Board or the Department with which it is associated from
auy other Department. But our experience in Australia is — and it may
possiblj" be not confined to the Connnonwealth — that it is not possible to
■constitute a public department of officials for any purpose, however excellent,
•of any men, however capable, who will not sooner or later, and pr()I)ably soon,
lose touch with the changing conditions of the practical work with which
they were originally created to deal. For ourselves it is only by constant
Parliamentary vigilance, by perpetual Parliamentary criticism, by influence
hr(jught to bear through the responsible ^linisfers, that we are able to keep
•our own departments in some degree up to the requirements of our own
country. I should suspect that the experience everywhere is the same. It is
not the fault of the individual so much as it is the fact you cannot have a
department without a system, and when once you stereotype the system you
begin to check the individual energy, initiative power and free criticism of
the men engaged iu it. While you cannot live without yoiu' bureaucracy, and
while the democracy needs it specially, with us the constant attention of the
representatives of the people is required to he devoted to our own departments.
We have to confess that they do not satisfy us. Constnpiently, if 1 may be
pardoned for the digression, I am not trying to select the Emigration Board
for conmients which 1 have had occasion to make upon other departments.
There Avill always be differences between ourselves and our departments.
While departments are necessary agencies of governments, they are in my
•opinion in ininntaljlc opposition, so to speak, to the re-adaptations and fresh
adaptations called for l)y the circumstances of each case. I do not say that
any one statement in that objectionable circular was untrue, but I do say that

174

Sixth Day. fQ send it out w'itliout adding the facts that the whole of the crushing always-
25 April l9i>T. has been done by white labour, that the greater part of the harvt^sting is now
being done by white labour, and the whole of it will be, is misleading.
The greater part of the work of an ordinary sugar cane farm is now being-
( r. ea in.) ,\q^q j^y gniall farmers upon their own land who make an arrangement
for the disposal of their cane, yet this circular might suggest that white
labour is being excluded and cannot be expected to cope with this industry.
The circular is bad because of what has been omitted. In that letter 1 have
read there is an extraordinary intimation that people need to l)e warned off
from what white people are already doing with profit to themselves and to the
country. That appears to me to be an inexciisable act. I do not put it
stronger than that. Mr. Burns, if I may say so, made the best possible
defence that could be made, and in so doing has discharged the duty of a
jMinister, of speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves much better
than they could. All I can say is, I am confident if Mr. Burns had been
dealing with this question, it Avould have been dealt with in a different
fashion. Any Minister issuing a circular would have framed it in a different
fashion. I do not wish to dwell upon that, but I must say there is a good deal
to be expected not only at this moment, because we come here to criticise,
but from that perpetual reformation of departments which we find necessary
in Australia, — I am confining my criticism to my own country, because that
cannot possibly give offence — imparting to them fresh life and fresh direction
so as to keep them in touch with changing circumstances. I have reason to-
suspect that the need is just the same elsewhere.

With a great deal Sir Joseph Ward said, and I also wish to associate
myself in his criticism, I concur. Certainly, when we ask for the co-operation
of the Imperial Government, we ask for effective co-operation in directing
and not in discouraging emigration. Then Sir Wilfiid Laurier implies that
w^e ought to specify the means to be employed. We think a more effective
organisation here is wanted under the direct control of the Britisli (Govern-
ment, or some of its Ministers, with that closer touch with the various
representatives of all the Dominions which Mr. Burns has been good enough
to foreshadow for us. We anticipate a great deal can be accomplished by
this means, and we confidently expect it will be accomplished. 1 am sure, as
far as Mr. Burns is concerned, it will be done, becaiise he is an active and
practical working man in this and other respects. But we go further ; we
do not wish to press unduly upon the Imperial Government, but we look
upon improved means of communication generally, by joint action between
the Mother Country and the several Dominions, as a very important means,
not only of assisting emigration, Init also trade. We are perfectly aware that
subsidies are now given to shipping which competes with British shipping,
both for passengers, cargo, and even emigrants. We have a line running to
Australia to-day under the British flag, which is really in the main portion
of its capital and interest, I i;nderstand, a foreign line of steamers. We
think encouragement should be given to vessels not only flying the British
flag, but actually British, so as to enable freights to be cheapened, and
passenger rates to be lowered. It is only upon the last economy upon
steamers ruiming to all the dominions, or that should be encouraged to run
to all the dominions requiring colonisation. We venture to think a good
deal can be done by co-operation between the different Governments in that
direction, and indeed by improvement of all the means of communication,
Avhich outside this chamber. Sir Joseph Ward and Sir Wilfrid Laurier have
been recently discussing. We say improved agencies between the Mother
Country and ourselves, improved means of communication, closer touch with
our fellow colonists, improved shipping services, cheap and rapid, are among
the means by which a popidation might be attz'acted to Britisli countries
instead of to foreign countries. We appreciate Mr. Burns' criticism of

175

■communities when their settlements are separated by language and by sixth Day.
strongly-marked customs from the rest of our p('Oi)lc, but communities from 25 April 1907.

the white races grouped together under one Hag, whether British or French

•Canadian or Africantler, as the case may be, so long as they are our own KMioKAnoif.
people, although we have no urgent desire for communities, we are yet so '^''- Deiikm.)
very nmch in need of ]iopulation that if it could only be obtained Ijy that
means, we should be sorry to disapprove it. We would be quit(! willing to
see some communal settlements, not in the strict sense, but joint efforts for
settling individuals who choose to group themselves together on particular
areas cf land. While we do not favour it, we shoidd not fear it, and Avould
rather face it, speaking for Australia, than not acquire population at all. It is
•only where the conununity is, so to speak, kept within a ring fence by reason
of language, blood, habits, and practices, that we see grave reason to apprehend
danger. Any other reasons arsiing from the settlement of communities woidd
appear to be of a slighter chai'acter which might lie ignored. We wish the
British Government would also favour subsidiary educational means, such as
have been recently proposed, seeing that the schools and through the schools
the children in this country were brought into closer touch with the
realities of life in the outer portions of the Empire. Mr. Burns spoke —and
I think so far as any of us know we all echo his commendation of the trans-
port of children by Dr. Barnado and others to ('anada, and elsewhere. That
appears to have been a brilliant success. Is not the suggestion closely
connected that in all the schools of the United Kingdom there should be
sutiicient teaching with regard to the Dependencies of the Empire, so that as
the children grow up, if they wish to make a choice of a new home, they will
have the knowledge necessary to make that choice. We are imdertaking the
necessary oliligatiou in all our schools of teaching not only British history,
but British geography, in order that they may understand the course of events
in the Mother Country, the centre of our race. In the schools, among tlie
children, by operating through your Boards of Guardians and other bodies to
whom Mr. Burns referred, by operating through a rejuvenated Emigration
Board here, associating it with the Central Emigration Board in this city, by
assisting the means of conununication and particularly shipping — these are
.among the methods which are open to the British Government to choose.
Any or all of those we would welcome, so far as Australia is concerned. We
are prepared to co-operate in any and every way in order to encourage
•emigration.

Mr. BURNS: May 1 say a few words on thr last point Mr. Deakin has
raised ? I have had placed in my hand this morning some postcards received
by the Board of Emigration from school children, in response; to a circular the
Board of Emigration issues. Here are 50 oi- tK) postcards from children,
received this morning, and it is only typical of what they receive : " Kindly
send to aljove address tlie circulars on Canada mid Anslralia."

Mr. DEAKIN : I hope you will not send the irircular of April \2i\\.

Mr. BURNS : If we send the one of April 12th, 1 think we will have to
put a footnote in, that we omitted, in order not to damage (Queensland, any
reference to the fact that Kanakas have previously been employed in this

particular industry.

Mr. DEAKIN : We do not mind that a bit. Put it in by all means.
We are determined to have a white; Australia, and im^an to keep it white.
We have voted 12,000?. of Conunonwealth moni-y in onlerto deport those
men comfortably to their homes and famihes. We believe it is good for the

176

Sixth Day.
25 April 1907.

Emigration.
(Mr. Deakiu.)

Islands to have tliem back, aud good for tlieir people that they should return
and live among them. For ourselves, we will have a white Australia, cost iis
what it may. We are anxious to let everyone know it.

CHAIRMAN : There is one resolution before the Conference proposed by
the Commonwealth. We agi-ee to the first part. I think, as far as my
colleague and I are concerned, we are quite prepared to accept the
second.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : If I may he allowed to interrupt, I think it would,
perhaps, be better if that second part was more elaborated iii the direction
that Mr. Deakin pointed out, so that the public should realise what the
resolution really means. Towards the end of Mr. Deakin's exposition of
what they did mean, he pointed out the A-alue of co-operation as regards
shipping and reduction of freights. I think if one or two indications were
just enumerated in that resolution it would he of great use.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Surely that is a matter to come up later on in
connection with trade. I would not mix them.

CHAIRIMAN : I think it would be a little difficult to take it up no\v.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : I am in the hands of the Conference, but it seems a
pity that the public should not know what is meant, even if it is only one or
two headings of what we intend by the co-operation.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : For myseK I would support the resolution as a
whole. I see no objection whatever to it upon the imderstanding that so far
as the second paragraph is concerned — having reference to New Zealand
alone, for which I am speaking — that the co-operation would be upon
application from a Colony.

Mr. DEAKIN : Necessarily. There nmst be two people to co-operate.
If New Zealand does not co-operate, plainly it does not desire it.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : There is one Colony here suggesting co-operation^
and the other side is the Mother Country.

Mr. DEAKIN : " That any Colonies desiring."

Sir JOSEPH WARD: "Be requested to co-operate with any Colonies
" desiring to co-operate." The understanding is, we have first to express
our wish to co-operate.

Dr. JAMESON : What it means, after Mr. Burus's speech, is, that this,
co-operation is limited to good wishes,

Mr. BURNS : And methods affecting the distribution of information.

Dr. JAMESON : And the Board of Emigration reorganisation is under
consideration at the present moment.

CHAIRMAN : That is in the report of the Committee.

Dr. JAMESON : ^^'ith regard to the subsidising of ships, I imderstand
Mr. Burns to say that Parliament has set its face against anything of
the kind.

177

Mr. BURNS : Yes ; it lias bceu the settled policy ol rarliameut for Sixth Day.
some years. 25 April 1907.

Tf T^■r' t T'T-VT -VT • ■ , 1 1 ■ !• • PI- EsilU 11 ATIO.V.

Mr. DiLAiviiN : Aot in comiectiou with the subsuhsing of ships.

Mr. BURXS : But, in comiectiou with emigration, not to grant votes of
Imperial money lor emigration.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : But as regards South Africa, owing to the practice
of the Colony as regards our contracts, we have been able to obtain contracts
highly advantageous in respect of emigration. I have no doubt Canada and
Australia, if not already doing it, could use co-operative influences there
which, although not directly State-aided, would, by means of State work, be
Ijrought al)out. I think it is a pity to simply put down an arbitrary condition
and say, we are going to have nothing to say to it.

Mr. DEAKIN : What i think Mr. Moor means, and very properly, is
what we call a postal subsidy. That assists emigration and trade because
it encourages the rapid despatch of boats. So, while it is not put forward
in (xreat Britain for the assistance of either trade or emigration, a postal
contract, as a matter of fact, does helj) l)oth. Wliy should not that be
systematised more ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Mr. Moor has brought it up, but it is a
much more involved question and embraces much more than emigration. I
think Avith Mr. Moor that it is a matter which ought to be taken up Ijy itself
before the Conference separates. I would not limit it simply to emigration.
There are uiany other considerations to be taken into account, and I am quite
with Mr. Moor on this j^oint, that this is one of the things we shoulil discuss
before we separate.

CHAIRMAN : As far as emigration is concerned, what is i^ut in the Resolution IV.,
second part of this resolution, is a request to co-operate generally, and that p- vi.
we are willing to accejjt. i\Iay 1 put it that this resolution from the Common-
wealth is accepted by the Conference ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The only objection I liavc to it is that it is
too vague.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : That is my feeling.

Mr. DEAKIN : I have given the reasons for the vagueness.

CHAIRMAN : Is it accepted ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have no objection.

Mr. F. R. MOOR : I must say I am disappointed as regards its present
wording. It is very indefinite. If we could specify how this coukl be done
I think it would be" of more practical importance to us in the future.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I do not know what your method of working is.
I take it we would still go on through our High Commissioner with tlie object
of inducing people to come out to our country. For instance, with the great
powerful and attractive Dominion of Canada, which is so close to England
and has such splendid advantages, with tlicir great organisation that they

A' ISfiGS. il

178

Sixth Day. are going on with we should all have to carry out onr own work on our

25 April 1907. own account if we desire to get the class of people we require in our country.

I do not see how you could set up the machinery in the resolution unless

jmighatio.v. y^^^ elaborate it minutely, so as to help your country or my country to get

J 1 w what we want. We are going to have the co-operation of the British

Government impartiallj^ as suggested by Mr. Burns. At the same time

we must go on with our own work.

Dr. SMx\RTT: Perhaps Mr. Burns would, with the help of his Department,
draw lip a ]\Iemoraudum for the Conference, showing how best the tenour of
this resolution could be carried out, and also what steps the Emigration
Department would take to discourage enugrauts going from this country —
going to anywhere except British Colonies.

Mr. BURNS : I thiiak it may be taken generally that consciously the
British Government has never discouraged emigration to any British Colony.

Dr. SMARTT : But without recommending them to go to any British
Colony, your Department ought to take up strongly the position of discouraging
them from going to foreign countries, and to encourage them to go to the
Colony of their choice, when so many require their services.

Mr. BURNS : The Conference has, by the adoption of the first paragi'aph :
" That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British
Colonies rather than to foreign countries," met your point.

Dr. SMARTT : No, my point is to Ivnow what steps your Departnient
proposes to take to carry out the tenour of this resolution.

CHAIRMAN : We Avill take the best steps we can. We could not
define them at the moment.

Mr. BURNS : If those steps can be improved we shall be pleased to hear
from the Colonies.

Sir W.ILFRID LAURIER : The Conference is obliged to Mr. Burns tor
his address to us on this subject.

Mr. DEAKIN : I am very happy to support Sir Wilfrid Laurier in
recognising the kindness and frankness of the Minister's address this

NATURALIZATION.

NATi-iiAi.izATiux. CHAIRMAN : With regard to the subject of naturalization to which we

now pass I may remind you that we sent out in December last certain papers
dealing with the subject, and the Home Secretary is here to-day to make a
further statement to you and to make a suggestion as to the best manner in
which the Conference might, perhaps, deal with this subject in its present
form.

Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, we are, I
take it, in general agreement that it is most desirable to attain uniformity in
this matter by Imperial legislation as far as possible. We recognise that this

179

is a qnestion of the sn'^atest importance to the Cc'Dnies. Experience and Sixth Day.
scientific observation hav(^ taught us much on th(> subject, but here in this 25 April 1907.

country we have a flense estabHshed population, and the difficulties which

will occur in connection Avith naturali/ation are not likely to lie of a critical ^ ^tibalization
nature. To the Colonies with their vast indilhul territories, we recognise that (Mr-Hpr'^rt
questions oi ininiigratujn and naturalization arlmittedly must beoi the greatest
moment. In what I have to say 1 propose to fleal with the main considera-
tions and to avoid for the present the subsidiaiy points, and all the more so
because when you disturb the seemingly quiet surface j'ou very soon find that
there are a series of rocks and shoals in law and other directions in connection
with this question. The draft llill circulated as a basis for this discussion I
need not say we have no desire to rush in any sense at all. It has been
prepared for this discussion, and I have no doubt the discussion will be full
in every way. Our wish in seeking iniiforniity is to cover by the Act which
we have in prospect as corajjletely as possible all the ground which is common
to us all, both in the United Kingdom and in the Colonies ; and the Bill
itself re-enacts, consolidates, and, to a certain extent, amends the existing law.
Ill its construction we proceeded from the circumference to the centre rather
than from the centre to the circinnference. First and foremost, I woukl like
to draw the attention of the Conference to the fact that the Bill proposes
to remove two principal anomalies which have for a long time caused irrita-
tion and inconvenience, Iwth in the Colonies and in the Mother Country.
First of all, as the law now stands, a certificate of naturalization can only be
granted in the United Kingdom — excepting the case of a person in the service
of the Crown — to a person Avho has resided, and intends to reside, in the
United Kingdom, li' he intends to go to the Colonies, however closely asso-
ciated he may he with British interests and British life generally, he cannot
be naturalised. Therefore it comes to this, that a wish on the part of this
person to go to the Colonies in itself becomes a disqualification. Conversely,
if a man in the Colonies is identified with Colonial interests, even if he is
naturalised in that Colonj^ he cannot qualify if he comes to the Mother Country
until he has resided here for five years. So that his Colonial connection is
again a disqualification for a period of five years during which he cannot
become a British subject. Our view is that these anomalies are totally
opposed to the principle of unity and solidarity within the Empire with
regard to this matter. We propose to deal with this in clause 7 of the Bill,
which provides that : " An alien who within such limited time before making
" the application hereinafter mentioned as has been under any Act hereby
" repealed or may be allcnved by the Secretary of State, either by general
" order or on any special occasion, has resided in His Majesty's Dominions
" for not less than five years or has been in the service of the Crown for not
" less than five years, and he intends, when naturalised, either to reside in
" His Majesty's Hominions, or to serve under the Crown, may apply to the
" Secretary of State for a certificate of naturalization." It is in its general
terms taken from the Act of 1S7(), but substituting "His ]\Iajesty's Dominions "
for " the United Kingdom." In that way we propose to entirely remove this
particular anomaly. The second leading anomaly to which I have alluded
lies in the fact that a certificate of naturalization granted in a Colony takes
effect only in that Colony. We propose to remove that by clause 2(i of the
BiU, the effect of whicli in brief is this, that where conditions of naturalization
in a Colony are substantially the same as those required in the United King-
dom, an Order of His iMajesty in C'ouncil may enable that certificate granted
in that Colony to have effect throughout the Empire. That provision produces
two main results ; a certificate granted in the Colonies in that prescribed way
becomes valid in the United Kingdom, and in the second i)lace it becomes
valid in other Colonies. By the first result the second great anomaly to which
I have referred is removed.

M 2

180

Sixth Day. Mr. DEAKIX : " Colonies " covers more than " self-goveruiiio- Colouies."

25 April : )07.

Naturalization-. jj^. HERBERT GLADSTONE : That is quite true. I am talking in

general terms now. That point certainly requires elucidation and discussion ;
and other similar points, for instance, as an illustration the meaning of the
word " Governor " in the Bill. Points of that sort will require further
discussion. I am only dealing now with the general drift of our proposals.
I think then that so far as the removal of these anomalies is concerned,
we do provide a certain basis of principle for an Imperial Naturalization
Law. The second result of clause 26, to which I have alluded, namely
that a certificate given in the Colonies is valid in other Colonies, has
been the subject of considerable criticism in the Memorandum which
we have received fi-om the Cape drawn up by the Attorney-General of
the Cape Govermnent. His point is that the Imperial law is too lax to
be accepted as a test of adequate conditions of naturalization in the
Colony ; and he develops the criticism in two directions. He points out
that, the discretion of the Secretary of State being absolute, there was
nothing in the law to prevent in the Mother Country a certificate of
naturalization being given to undesirables who might even be criminals, and
in the second place to persons of non-European descent. . In passing, I might
perhaps observe one remark in the jMemorandum. The Cape Attorney-General
noted that at the time the Memorandum was written there was no Act dealing
with the immigration of aliens in this country. Since then, as is well known,
an Act has been passed, and certainlj^ with regard to imdesirables that Act
has had a considerable operative force, and it does arm the Government with
large powers to deal with aliens who are found guilty of crime in this
coxmtry ; and under that Act we have got rid of a large number of
extremely dangerous and unsatisfactory persons. So we are so much, at
any rate, to the good in that matter. Perhaps I may here deal with the point
that the law of this country is lax, or rather that the i)ractice under the law,
the administration of it, is lax, because that is what it comes to. I may just
briefly describe to the Conference what our action is in regard to this matter
in mj^ Department. Every applicant for a certificate has to give four referees
as to his character, and he has to give a fifth as to his residence. In every
single case the most minute inquiries are made as to his character, his
position, his antecedents, and his intentions. Of course, the inquiries are
made in various directions, and whenever there is any necessity we make
the inquiries through the j^olice, who are the most convenient agents at our
disposal in the matter. We also lay down certain tests which we require
the applicants to pass ; for example, we have the general test that the
njan must be able to read and write. We hold that he has not a
real claim to the advantages of citizenship unless he is al)le to read and
write English. Although there may be a solitary occasion or two in
vhich some exception is made to that, that is the general rule on which
Ave act. Then there is also a fee to be paid, if the alien is generally
satisfactory, of 5?., before he can get his certificate. If there is any suspicion
of criminality on the part of the man, that suspicion has to be dissipated as a
condition precedent to his obtaining his certificate ; and, as far as we know,
no criminal has been naturalised in this country. Of coiirse, we maintain,
whatever may be said about the provisions of the law, that in effect our
administration of it is by no means lax, and would fulfil with regard to
undesiraljleness and crime the requirements which are suggested on the part
of the Cape Government. But it would be quite possible to consider whether
certain classes of criminal undesirables might not be named in the Bill as
being disqualified for naturalization. That is a matter which we should
be very glad to consider, and, in fact, to put it lirietly, we might see how far

181

wo could express in law what, in fact, has been onr practice in its Sixth Uuy.
administration in this countrv-. Willi regard to the second point of the 25 April 1907.

Cape Attorney-General, namely, liis reference to persons of non-European

descent, in this country we have admitted extremely few j)ersons of non- -^ -*" ''-^ -"--^
luiropean descent. It is a point, so far as we are concerned here, which is v, .."^'^r'
not at ail serious; and I woidd like to remind the Conference that >»atal,
which has l)y law excluded non-Europeans from naturalization, has accepted
the United Kingdom's certificates as valid. A point has heen raised in the
Cape xVttornev-Gpiieral's Memorandum with regard to the conditions jire-
vailiug ill Crown Colonies in regard to this matter, and he says it is a vital
consideration that liong Kong, a Crown Colony, has no naturalization law,
and tliat the Straits Settlements require no stated period of resilience, so there
is nothing to prevent a Chinaman landing there and at once getting his
lettei'S of naturalization, and if the recommendation of the Committee is
adopted, that it shall suflicc to declare intention to reside within the
Dominion, that Chiuamau can at once proceed to South Africa, and can only
he shut out by Act of Parliament. ()f course, that is a point that requires
very serious consideration, but I would suggest with regard to it that the
Order in Council mider these circumstances would not be made, because the
conditions locally would not be so satisfactorj' as the conditions which prevail
in this country, which would l)e the test. The test really would be the
conditions which prevail in lliis country, and not the conditions which might
prevail in Hong Kong or the Straits Settlements or any other Crown Colony.
I would suggest to the Conference on this point, which is, as I quite under-
stand of great importance in connection with tliis Draft Bill, that before an
Order in Council is issued there would be ample opportunity to consult the
Colonial Governments concerned; and through tlie machinery, which T am
glad to say it is proposed to set up by the establishment of a Seci-etariat,
we should be able to ascertain the views of the Colonial Governments
concerned, as to Avhether the conditions of the certificate were sufficiently
satisfactory.

I do not like to go into further details at this stage. We shall be
glad to consider any suggestion. A number of detailed suggestions were
made in the Cape Attorney-General's Memorandum, most of which have
lieen dealt with and embocHed in the draft Bill ; so that it is proposed
to assimilate those suggestions which are now the law in most Cnlonies
with our own law. We recognise the force and justice of the claim of the
Colonial Governments to deal with special (Ullicultics which alfei't them
in varying ways, and with which the Home Country is not directly concerned,
or with which it is not desirable or possible for iis to deal ourselves. I would
venture to suggest that outstanding points, points for the most part of detail,
but still of very important detail, should be left to be dealt with by a
committee. Our chief desire is to make the Imperial Law as comprehensive
and acceptable to the Empire as possilile, and avc seek, in short, willing
agreement on a basis Avhich will not interfere with the local necessities and
the legitimate desires of all the individual Colonial Governnients which are
concerned in this question. I therefore would venture, Lord Elgin, to suggest
that this Bill might be referred to a Committee, so that its details may bo
thoroughly considered by representative men, and I would propose to move
a resolution Avhicli runs thus : " That, with a view to attain imiformity, so
" far as practicable, an inquiiy should be held to consider further the
" ([uestion of naturalization, and in particular to consider how far and
" under what conditions naturalization in one part of His Majesty's Dominions
" should be effective in other parts of those Dominions, a subsitliary
" Conference to be held if necessary under the terms of the resolution
" adopted by this Conference on the 20th April last."

■1800S. M 3

182

Sixth Day. Sir WILFRID LAURIER : That is, perhaps, as far as this Confereace

25 April 1907. would propose to go. It is a very complicated question, and I think it
advisable to have a discussion upon it.

Naturalization.

CHAIRMAN : You wish to discuss it further ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I think so. It is most important and most
complicated.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : It certainly ought to he discussed.

Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE : It is very complicated.

CHAIRMAN : We submitted this resolution strictly in the terms of the
decision of the Conference the other day with regard to our future organisa-
tion, so that it might be carried out on those lines, namely, that we should
be responsil^le for seeing that an inquiry was made at a subsidiary Conference
held as soon as the inquiry might be ready. We put it before you just now
in case on those terms the Conference did not wish to discuss it further at
this meeting, it being a very technical matter, but of course if the Conference
does desire it, we must try and arrange another day.

Dr. JAMESON : Could it be adjourned to one day next week, when we
might have a copy of what Mr. Gladstone has told us ?

CHAIRMAN : We cannot discuss it next week.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think we ought to have a general discussion
upon it.

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, that general discussion might be at a later period,
and then we shall have before us a copy of Mr. Gladstone's address.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : If this matter went to a Conuuittee before we had
an opportunity of discussing it, there are some points of material importance
certainly, to New Zealand, which I should have no opportunity of dealing
with. I wish to deal with them, though I can do so briefly, because it is a
very complicated and difficult matter and the proposals outlined by Mr.
Gladstone in some respects are of a very far reaching character so far as my
country is concerned.

Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE : May I say that I did not formally move
the resolution with a view to avoid a general discussion before we got to it,
but I thought that as the hour was now late it might be desirable to put my
general suggestion before the Conference so that you should be in possession
at any rate of our views in the matter, and then the Conference could take
what course it thought desirable.

CHAIRMAN : Then the Conference adjourns on this matter, and the
actual day to be fixed for that discussion to be left open.

Adjourned to to-morrow at 3.30.

183

Minutes of Proceedings at a Discussion between the -5 April 1907.
Chancellor of the Exchequer and Others representing
His Majesty's Treasury and certain Members of the
Conference.

Held at the Treasury, Whitehall, Thursday, 25th Ai-ril 1907.

Present :

The Honourable Alfred Deakin, Prime Minister of the ConinionweaJth
of Australia.

The Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New

Zealand.

The Honourable L. S. -iAiiESOx, C.B., Prime ilinister of Cape Colony.

The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Conunissioner of Public Works (Cape
Colony).

General the Honourable Louis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.

The Right Honourable H. H. Asquitii, K.C, M.P., Chancellor of the
Exchequer.

The Right Honourable W. E. Macartney (Deputy blaster of the Mint).

Mr. Walter Runciman, Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Sir E. W. Hamilton, (J.C.B., K.C.V.O., Permanent Financial Secretary
to the Treasury and Auditor of the Civil List.

Sir George Murray, K.C.B., Permanent Administrative Secretary to
the Treasury.

Sir Hexry Primrose, K.C.B., C.S.I., Chairman of the Board of Inland
Revenue.

Mr. W. Blain, C.B., and other Officials of the Treasury.

Mr. G. W. JoH.\.sox, C.iM.G.

Joint Secretory.

DOUBLE INCOME TAX."

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I thought that, perhaps, Doii.lf. Income
the most convenient point to begin with, tiubjcct to your opinion, was the Tax.

double payment of income tax. It touches you most, Dr. Jameson, and
you also, Mr. Deakin.

Dr. JAMESON : Very much iiuleed, and it will affect General Botha
very much more than it does us, or will presently.

CHANCELLOR OF THE I'.XCHEQUER: It does not ju^.t now.
Dr. Jameson ; perhaps you had better open that tojjic if it is convenient
to you.

• See p. 543.
M 4

184

to April 1907. Dr. JAMESON : Mr. Asquith, we liave stated and re-stated this case

frequently and I tLiuk it is fairlj^ rightly stated in our resolution : " That it

oiuLE Income ,i ^^ inequitable that income tax be levied in the United Kingdom on profits
" made in the British Colonies and possessions, upon which income tax has
" been paid in such Colonies or possessions, and it is eq^^ally inequitable that
" income tax be paid in any British Colony or possession on profits made in
" the United Kingdom upon which income tax has been paid in the United
" Kingdom, and that representations be made in the Federal Govermiient to
" urge the repeal of enactments imposing double income tax on British
" subjects by the laws of the separate States and Great Britain."'

I think you will remember, Mr. Asquith, that about eight months ago
when I was at home the De Beers Company came and put the case l^efore
you, and I had the pleasure of seeing you afterwards and Ave got at that time
what, I am afraid, we rather expected to get — an absolute non ijiossumus.
We recognise that judgment has been given against iis in the test case of
De Beers )jy all the various courts going up to the highest, so that, of course,
as the law stands, we recognise that we are liable. ^Vhat we ask is — and it
is a very large " ask," no doubt — that there should be legislation introduced in
the Imperial Parliament altering the law. That is the only way in which our
peoi)le can get relief at all. At present the position turns on the difference
as to where ijrofits are earned and where they are spent practically, and we
know that we can only get relief fi-om this double income tax upon income
which is earned in the Colony, or in General Botha's case, where he has not
got an income tax at present but probably may have later on, if in any case
the money is actually earned in the Transvaal, when there are various
shareholders outside tlie Transvaal, not only here, but abroad — I mean, not
only in the United Kingdom, but in Europe generally — and General Botha
takes the view which we take in Cape Colony, that if there is to be any
taxation on those earnings, it ought to go to the State in which the earnings
are created.

I do not think I need elaborate the case. It is simply as to whether the
Exchequer can see its way to introduce such legislation as would exempt us,
in Companies where the whole production takes place within our Colony,
from the taxation of shareholders living there. There are two Avays of doing
the thing, as to shareholders living in the Colony itself, and as to people
living in England. The usual inethod of collection at the j)resent moment is
that the Company deducts the total income tax, whether in the Colony or in
England, from the total amount of profits earned, and, therefore, the Colonial
shareholder is hit twice in our case, and we think he ought not to be ; and
the same in General Botha's case. Representations have been made from the
foreign shareboklers in the particular case of the De Beers Company where
the test case took place agamst it. Of course, the Colonial shareholder also
feels it, and he has jnade violent protests against it.

There is the point, possibly, that abroad or in the Uiiited Kingdom
where money is spent and the man living, he may have to pay his income
tax, but surely for the Colonies themselves, for the individual Colonial
shareholder, it seems to be inequitable that he should be taxed for money
earned when those earnings are sj^ent within the Colony itself. Perhaps he
never visits anywhere except in the Colony, and yet he has to pay this tax
to the English Government besides the ordinary taxation he has to pay in
liis own country.

There is a small point also which Avas brought forward at that time,
that supposing the companies did not practically collect the income tax
for the Imperial Government here and that they had to coUect it from
the individual shareholder themselves, Avhich, of course, Avould be in the
poAver of the company, then proljably the Treasury here Avould lose a good
deal of money. That is merely u small side issue, and roughly the jjosition

DoriiLF, Income
Tax.

185

is that I wish to press upon you, if yon sec your way to it, that legishitioii 25 April 1907.
should be brought in so as to remove this inequitable tax, as we consider it to
be, on the Colonial sharehoklers.

CHANCELLOR OF THL EXCHEQUER (to General Botha) : Have you ^^'- '^"™«*"'"-)
anything to say upon this topic ?

General BOTHA : No, except that I quite agree with that.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: You associate yourself with
what has been said ?

General BOTHA: Yes.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER .
Mr. Deakin ?

it does not interest you,

Mr. DEAKIN : Certainly, it interests us because there is a double tax.
It interests us quite as much as it does any other part of the Empire, but
Ave have not pressed it furtlier because Ave understood (I hope I may bo
undeceived) that your mind was absolutely made up aljout it, and that there
Avas no chance of our being exempted. That is our position.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
knows, he and I have talked about this Ijofore.

Of course, as Dr. Jameson

Dr. JAMESON: Sir Joseph
something to say about it.

Ward is here now, and he may have

Sir JOSEPH WARD: I do not know Avhat you have l)een discussing,
but Ave have had an important question of Avhat Ave think is diuil taxation
up very frequently in our country, as to whether there was a possibility of
reciprocity where your people come out Avho are paying income tax legitimately
here, and may reside for a time in our country till the arrival of the period
for collecting income tax ; they invariably complain Avhen asked to pay
income tax in our Colony, and Ave have that reversed of course ; people from
NeAV Zealand come to the Old Country, and the question is Avhether it is
possible to arrive at the position of saying that Ave shall not charge an
Englishman resident in our country Avho pays income tax if you say the same
to a NcAv Zealand Resident avIio comes to England. If Ave could arrive at a
mutual understanding upon that point it Avould be very satisfactory to us.
I admit it is a very difficult thing to do.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is a difficult thing to do.
but that is rather a different point from the one Dr. Jameson lias raised. I
Avill take a typical case, the case of the De Heers Company, Avhich has been held
liable to income tax here, and I may point out that the tax is a tax, not upon
the shareholders, but upon the profits of the Company ; of course, indirectly
no doubt in the long run it is a tax Avhich falls on the individual shareholders,
but the tax is collected here upon the profits made l)y the Company, and the
ground upon Avhich the Company has been held liable is no neAv ground, it is
quite as old as our income tax legislation. It is that the Company has been
found in point of fact to be resident here, that is to say, that although the
mines Avhich it owns, and the operations for Avorking those mines are carried
on in South Africa, Avhat the Courts have held to be the head, the controlling
power, the directing poAver, the brains, and the nerve centre of the Company ia

186

^5 April 1907.

Double Income
Tax.

(Ghancellor of
the Exchequer.)

here in London, or at least within the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom, and
it is always a question in each case, a pure question of fact, Avhether that
criterion is or is not satisfied.

There are a great many companies carrying on operations, for instance,
in the Transvaal, a great many gold-mining companies of Avhieh that cannot
be said, where the directing poAver, the real head and centre and directing
power is not here, but is in the Transvaal, the spot where the physical
operations of mining are carried on, and wherever that is the case the
Imperial income tax is only exigible from any part of the profits which is
remitted to this countrj^ and actually received here. It is only when in point
of fact the Courts come to the determination with regard to a particular
company, that the head and centre of the operations are here, that the
Company is regarded as in point of law resident or domiciled here, that
the whole of its profits comes within the reach of the income tax
law. It is open to any company to alter its arrangements in that respect if it
is to its interest to do so, but so long as the company conceives it to be in its
interests to carry on the main directing power of its operations within the area
of the United Kingdom, a matter which is entirely within its discretion to
determine one way or the other, it has always been the law — it is no new law
— in this country that the whole profits made as the result of that company's
operations are subject to income tax here and the profits of the company as a
whole are liable to be so charged.

I cannot hold out any hope that the Imperial Parliament will effect any
change in that principle of law. To do so would be to deprive ourselves here
of an amount which I should be very sorry offhand to calculate, and also it
would be to fly entirely in the face of the principle of our income tax law,
which is that wherever a person, a natural person or an artificial person,
chooses for purposes of his or their own, to domicile themselves in this
country, to take the advantage of o^^r laws for the purposes of carrying on
their trade, they are proper subjects of taxation, and we cannot discuss
the question amongst whom in what part of the world the ultimate profits are
divided.

We have many such cases, not only in connection with the Colonies ; we
have many more cases in connection with foreign countries. In South
America, as Dr. Jameson knows, we have a great many South American
railways, and although the wdiole operation of the railway as a railway is
carried on in South America, the caj^ital has been, as a rule, very largely
subscribed here, aud the board of directors meets here, and the operations of
the company are carried on here. We tax those companies, although they
are South American companies in the same sense iu which De Beers is a
Cape Colony Company.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I3o you tax in that case the individual in London
-,n the profits of the Company ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No, we tax the Company
upon its profits. We take the profits of the Company and tax them.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Then does the individual upon his annual income
again pay on a proportion of these profits ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : No ; if the individual has a
claim for aliatement or anything of that kind that is another matter. We
tax the profits of the Company, and then the Company hands on the burden
of the liability, no doubt, to the individual shareholder by deducting from

187

thfi (lividcnd which wouhl otherwise be payable to him his proportion of 25 April 1907. ;

the income tax. The thing we have to deal with, the taxable entity, so far ^

as we are concerned is not the in<lividual sharehoMer ; we have no concern '^"'^^"I^e^ Income

with him ; it is the Corporation, the artificial person who is making the (Chancollor of

profits, and who, l)cing a person now under our law resident here, is subject to tl>e Exohiquer.)

our income tax law. It does not matter whetlier lie owns a mine in Siberia

or a railway in Soutli America or a mine in Xev/ Zealand or South Africa,

the law is applied ([uite impartially to all and it is always a question of

fact in each particular case whether the constitution and the mode of

management of the Company is such as to make it elVectively and actually

resident for the purpose here. If it chooses to transfer its head, its centre,

its brain and nerve power, to some otiier part of the work! so that it is no

longer in point of fact resident here, then, of course, our ciaim for income

tax ceases, but in tliat respect the case of the Company is exactly like

that of the natural person ; either the one or the other have to be resident

here and to carry on the main directing power of their operations here to

render themselves liable to Imperial income tax.

I do not think that consistently witli the general principles which
pervade and luideiiie the whole of our income tax law it would be possible
for us to make a distinction in that respect, so that 1 am afraid on that point
I cannot hold out any hope that the Imperial Parliament is likely to alter the
policy which has now been persistently and consistently pursued for more than
60 years.

Dr. JAMESON : That has just raised a point, Mr. Asquith, that made us
hope there might be a possil)ility of something being done. We are certainly
not here to look after the interests of Soutli America or these various places
you have referred to. There is that awhxl word " Preference " which comes
into this like many other things and we are realising, as we are all here now,
that the fact that there is a jiartnership in the various portions of the Empire
is becoming more emphasised, and I cannot see a better example of partnership
than if we diiferentiated between the foreigner and the various Colonies on a
subject of this kind.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: .May I interrupt you one
moment ? I suppose a very considerable number of the shareholders in the
De Beers Company are on the Continent of Europe, are they not ?

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, the shareholders, but then you told us you are
not dealing with the shareholders, but with the Company, the corporate
body.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : The shareholders are tlie
people who would iiltimately l)enefit, when you come to the question of
preference. It is quite true that the operations of the Company are carried
on in South Africa, but who are the people receiving the dividends ?

Dr. JAMESON : I do not care much who receives the dividends or how
much they receive, but I do care that a big Company in a British Colony
should be as successful as possible, and I feel that the success of any other
Companies following in its wake wtuild be more assured if this great l)enetit
was given to them as a portion of the Empire, leaving out, as you said
yourself, the shareholder, and we do not care what the shareholder gets.
From one point of view we naturally care what the shareholder gets, but
leaving him out altogether and taking the coriiorate body with its operations
within the Colony, ii' it got a certain amount of benefits probably it would

Double Income

188

25 April 1907. benefit very mncli the people who are working in that Colony. There is not
the least doulit oi' that. Yon made it out to he something like 200,000J. for
Tax^*^"'^*" o]ie year which is taken, and of that 2(J0,U00/. a great deal wonld go towards

(Dr Jameson ) ^^® working and good government of the Cape Colony. It will not all go to
the shareholders. We will do things on a better scale if we are not taxed
to that extent.

CHANCELTiOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It would be an increase of
the dividend.

Dr. JAMESOX : Take even the sentiment point of view represented by
a very small amount of cash, it woiild he all helpful. Then you said just
now that of course the brain force is here, and that is quite true with regard
to the De Beers Company. I believe it has been decided by the law courts,
and it must be so, but yon said that if they did not like that they could move
elsewhere. It has been discussed at the De Beers Board whether it would not
be worth while for the sake of saving some 200,000?. a year that they should
move their oihces out of London altogether. It could be done, I believe ; it
would be rather difficult to move them out to Africa altogether, but I believe
that could be done ; in fact there is a very strong agitation on the part of
a portion of the De Beers Company to move the whole thing out to Kimberley,
and I wish they would, and then the only people who Avould pay income tax
would he the British shareholder who happened to be resident in England,
and the tax would have to be collected individually. That is Avhere the
agreement I brought in just now would come in because you would prac-
tically get nothing, and it would be not only the De Beers Company, but a
large portion of the companies in South Africa are here with their brain power
and have to pay. They have not been tried yet — but are going to be tried.

Sir HENRY PRIMROSE : There are a good many of them here, but
there are also a good many not here.

Dr. JAMESON : Really, the larger ones are a great deal controlled from
London.

Sir HENRY PRIMROSE : Y^es.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Many of them are, no doubt.
I did not mean to imply that the whole were.

Dr. JAMESON : It would be rather too bad to frighten any of them away.
Perhaps the Treasury might lose more by frightening them away than by
making this concession to companies existing within the Empire in the
various British Colonies.

Of course, the position is quite as you say, Mr. Asquith, only we Avant it
altered. Here is the Memorandum from the Treasury of 189G, and they put
it here perfectly simply, and that is why I began by saying that we know
without legislation we could not alter the present position of things. " The tax
" in England is a tax upon income received in the United Kingdom, not
" earned, in that respect it appears, according to the statement of the
" Memorial, to differ from the income tax, established in the Colonies, Avhich
" extends oirly to incomes earned in the country where the tax is in force."
Now, to us Colonists, it appears that that is a most equitable arrangement that
it should be a tax iipon incomes earned in the country where the tax is in
forcie, and that is what we hope may be an indication to have discussed, at all
eveats, if iiot got any further.

189

CHANCKLLOR OF THE EXCHEQUKli : It would strike at the veiy 2o April 1907.

root of our income tax law, and that is the tliihculty, you see ; logically it

would go tremendous lengths. Docble Income

Mr. DEAKIN : Are you not introducing a difference between earned
income and not-earned ?

CHANCELLOR OF Till-: EXCHEOUER : As regards small incomes.
The De Beers Company under no possible stretch of the imagination could
come into that category.

Mr. DEAKIN : Lulividual shareholders might.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: They can get the benefit of
the l;-,w.

j\[r. DEAKIN : I wanted to get that, because of your recent Budget
distinction l)ctween earning and not earning.

CHANGFLLOR OF THE IvXCHEQUEri : That was not the point of
my remark ; the point of my remark was totally different — that in England
under I'higlish law income taxis payable by everybody resident here on profits
wherever earned. The question whether a companj- is resident here is a
question of fact, as you know as a lawyer, to be determined in each particular
case, and if it is once held that either a natural or an artificial person is
resident here, then you sweep the whole of his earnings into the net and
within the ambit of the law. That has always been the position of our
income tax law. Of course there is another way of giving a relief to
the De Beers Company, but I daresay it would not conmiend itself to you,
Dr. Jameson.

Dr. JxVMESON: What is that?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUFR: That the Cape Colony should
not tax it.

Dr. JAMESON : I think the De Beers Company should, perhaps, Ih'
taxed more than it is for the lienefit of the Cape Colony. I am going to put
some more on them this year when I go back, and thei-efore I am very
anxious that whatever is to be plucked out of them I shall get for Cape
Colony and not pass it over here.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCPIEQUER : I quite nnderstand. and
thoroughly sympathise with you, if I may say so. I am afrai<l you must leave
that now ior the moment. I need not say I will careliilly bear in mind all
you have said.

;Mr. Deakin, which of your resolutions do you prefer to take first ?

Mr. DEAKIN : I think the profit on silver.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Vou liave o.u- niemoraudum?

Mr. DEAKIN : T have.

Dr. JAMESON : Before you leave that other point, -Mr. Asquith. this is
mofe or less a private Conference, and some of us would like if you would

090

25 April 1907. canse your answer to he sent in as a Memorandnm to the General Conference

so that it may be brought up.

Double Income

'^^^- ^ CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I quite understand ; you

(Dr. Jameson.) j^^turaUy would like to raise it formally ?

Dr. JAMESON : Yes.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I will see that is done.
You are now to deal with profits on silver coinage, Mr. Deakin.

PROFITS ON SH^A^ER COINAGE.

Profits on Mr. DEAKIN : The Memorandiim I have just had the opportunity of

SiLVEE CoiNAfiE. reading I may have looked at before, biit really have had no chance of fully
considering. It contains a good deal which appears to me to be arguable,
and that might be an interesting pursuit, but I do not know that it would
proht us. Let me at once call attention to one or two omissions from the
Memorandum. In the first place, nowhere here is any estimate or calculation
furnished. First there is an interesting discussion as to what is "profit"
and what is not, and what indefinite liabilities have to be provided for ;
that is mere argument. Now, as a matter of fact, it ought to be possible —
I assume it is known— to state what is the apparent profit up to the present
time on the silver coined in, for instance, the Colonies generally. Nowhere
do Ave see that, and without that the argument remains academic. When
reference is made to severa] statements here which can only have Ijeen
made on the faith of some such calculation more or less close having been
already carried out, one finds that it is not given. We are told that under
certain circumstances the present profit may disappear. I assume these
statements to be made with knowledge of what the profit is, and what chances
there are of losses occurring ; we are left in the dark. The supposition with
us is that there is, and always has been, a consideralile profit, and tliat there
are profits still. If that could be settled by actual figaires it would a good
deal diminish our difiiculties in dealing with the matter.

-'&

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Are the figures you wish
for the total profits, or the annual profits, for a series of years, or the profit
made in respect of that part of the coinage which goes to Australia and is
used in Australia, or both ?

Mr. DEAKIN : I should like Ijoth, because one conies into tlie other.
The latter would show whether we are really misled by those among us
who calculate that there is a very considerable profit which we have some
title to claim.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Of course as you agree we
have to take into account as a set-off the loss which is incurred in rej)lacing
gold.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, that is reasonal)le. I would look at the figures
with the further a(hiiission that it is witliin the 1)0unds of possibility tliat
there may be, though we hope there will not be, fluctuations iu silver whicli
may affect the profit. We have that generally iu our mind, but really I feel
quite unable to grapple with the practical side of this question until we
have some idea of wliat the actual earnings are.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : 1 shall be glad, if it is
possible, to let you have these.

191

Mr. DEAKIN : It would bo a great nflvjmtage, and may T also ask for 25 April 1907.

some other information ? There is an arrangement between the Dominion

of Canada and vonrselves in regard to the silver coinage, which has obtained ''''"rn,K»rp
for a number of years. T asked my own ollicers but they coukl not tell mo
what that was, neither the nature of it uor what its effect is.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Canada has a subsidiary
silver coinage, has it not, of its own ?

Mr. BLAHS' : It is coined by the Mint here.

Mr. DEAKIN : And it is also, now proposing to have a mint of its own.

Mr. BLAIN : Yes.

Mr. DEAKIN : 1 assume if it is proposing to make a mint of its own it
is because they must think the business of minting more profitable than the
returns which liave hitherto been derived from this arrangement with you. I
merely assmue that from this statement.

Mr. BLAIN : I think Canada wanted a mint of its own for much the
same reasons as Australia.

;Mr. DEAKIN : We have got a mint of our own in that sense.

Mr. BLAIN : It is a branch of the Royal Mint, like the three branch
mints in Australia, that is proposed to be founded at Ottawa.

Mr. DEAKIN : It is proposed to have an institution there and to coin
locally.

Mr. BLAIN : That is all that is proposed in Canada.

Mr. DEAKIN : They will not derive any greater or less profit than they
do now ?

Mr. BLAIN: No.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is really to put them
on an equality of status with you, and to have a little mint of their own.

Mr. DEAKIN : I presume there is no objection to our knowing what
the nature of the an-angement that exists with Canada is.

Mr. BLAIN : The sidisidiaiy silver coins for Canada are coined for the
profit of Canada, as far as there is profit arising from the i)urchase of the
silver, and they simply ]xiy an allowance to the Mint here that is sufficient
to cover the cost of striking the coins. Mr. Macartney would say what the
allowance is.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : You charge them three
per cent., Mr. Macartney ?

Mr. MACARTNEY : Yes.

192

25 April 1907. Mr. DEAKIN : Are you in a position to say what profit they have been

Profits ox
Silver Coinage.

gaining from that ?
Profits ox

Mr. MACARTNEY : No, I should not like to say off-hand, but there is
profit, of course.

Mr. DEAKIN : I would be glad to know what it was.

CHiVNCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: You understand it is a
subsidiary coinage.

Mr. DEAKIN : Quite. That makes it easier to calculate than ours, but
it affords a clue if you take into account the amount of the coinage, the
population, and so on.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : We will try and furnish
that to you.

Mr. DEAKIN : If we had those facts before us we woidd be alile to
argue in a more concrete fashion.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Have you considered the
last paragraph ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, we have recenth' called attention to the fact that
our half-sovereigns are getting sliabljy. We recognise that as a charge
against the coinage of silver. The profit upon it is ample to provide that.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Hitherto, the old gold coins
have had to be tendered to the Bank of England, and Ave have suggested
what we thought might be acceptable to you, to allow them to be tendered in
Australia.

Mr. DEx\KIN : That would be an advantage.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think there would be a
very distinct advantage in that.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes. If we could get the information I have asked
for, perhaps we might look at this again.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Very well. What would
j'oii like to take next ?

DECIMAL SYSTEM.

DEctJTAL Sy-^tem. Mr. DEAKIN : There is decimal currency, still believed to be disposed

of by an interesting document of 1859.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Just before you arrived
here, we had a Debate this Session in the House of Commons, not on deciiual
currency, Ijut on decimal weights and measures.

Mr. DEAKIN: Tlio metric system.

193

r'rTANCET.LOR OF THE EXC'JIE(,)UE1? : It is nioiv or less rclato.l ^'^ April UW.

to it.

Mr. DEAKIN: Tliey are looped together by this report of IS")!!. The
elTect of that discussion in the House was^ ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCIlEQrER : To shoxv on the whole a
very adverse feeling to any change. The state of the law here at present is,
as regards weights and measures, that it is optional ; anybody, if they please,
can carry on their transactions on the decimal nomenclature, or whatever you
choose to call it, as regards weights and measures.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: Li England itself?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Yes ; it is optional, but it
is not compulsoiy, and some changes have been advocated hy a consiflerable
body of opinion, principally amongst the Chambers of Commerce. The
advocates of the change have been advising that the change should be made,
allowing an interval for the transformation from one system to the other, and
the thing came to a head a few years ago in the House of Conunons, when a
Bill was brought in, and the thing was very thoroughly debated. I forget
the exact figures.

^[r. RUNCIMAN : The Bill was lost by a large majority weeks ago.

CblANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: A ven-consi.lerable majority
in this new House of Conunons, which is pretty fresh from the country, and
I thought that was prol)ably a fair indication.

Mr. DEAKIN : " Fresh " in the sense you apply the word to horses.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Li both senses, perhaps.

Dr. JAMESON : The option is very little used.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Very little.

Mr. RUNCIMAN : It is used in the engineering trades to some extent.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think we hud a very
interesting debate about it which, perhaps, you may find worth reading — the
report in " The Times " a few weeks ago. The strong opposition came from
the cotton trade ; I think they were the strongest of all.

Mr. RUNCTMAN : Yes, and the whole of the textile trades.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The textile trades as a
whole, but the cotton trade in particular ; they said it would involve a
complete revision of the whole of their machinery as well as the old-
established price-list which has been slowly compiled during od years.

Mr. RUNCIMAN: And the reconstruction of their looms V

ClIAXCELLOU OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes, and, in lact, of the
whole apparatus of ])roduction, uliicli would lie so expensive and involve

Decimal

Sv<Tru,

194

25 April 1907. during the process of transformation so much, loss from capital Ij'ing idle and

Decimal ^^^ ^^®^ capital which would have to he put into it, that they regarded it as a

Systkm. thing which would be for the time heing almost disastrous to the cotton

(Chancellor of the industry. The operatives and masters were absolutely at one about it ; there

Exchequer.) was a most remarkable demonstration from the whole of that industry, and I

think the woollen trade was hardlj"- less emphatic.

Mr. RUNCIMAN : The cotton trade is even more important, as the
English " count " is the standard for the world.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : That is quite true ; it would
affect India, and I suppose America, and you have always to consider the
United States in this matter. There is no tendency whatever, as far as one
can see, in the United States towards the decimal system, no really definite
tendency.

Mr. DEAKESr : It is not like the coinage.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : T am speaking of the
weights and measures. It is very difficult to separate the two ; they are
related very much to one another.

Mr. DEAKIN : As will be seen from our resolution, our Parliament
contains a certain number of members who are deeph' interested in this, more
or less from theoretical considerations ; but the resolutions both about the
metric system and a decimal coinage relate to their use within the Empire.
It never has been contemplated in relation to either that we should set up a
standard of our own, and that is why we have to bring them forward
conditionally. The resolution as to decimal currency asks that it should be
applicable to the whole Empire. Of course, a statement as strong as you
are able to make at the present time, after your Parliamentary discussion,
does not encourage any debate on the merits.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I, personally, was always
rather what j'ou woidd call an academic advocate of it. Some of the great
thinkers are not, and Herbert Spencer, for instance, was verj^ much opposed
to it.

Mr. RUNCIMAN : He was a duo-decimalist.

Mr. DEAKIN : Our resolutions on this point direct us to press for their
use within the Empire in each case ; in each case they desire an Imperial
scheme. Mr. Asquith himself is theoretically inclined to it.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Twas, but lam not sure that
I am now ; I am a little weakened in my views.

Mr. DEAKIN : In any case it is sufficient, take whichever view you
please, if you tell us that there is no present prospect of eitlier of the systems
being adopted. Is there any chance of this suggestion that the manufacturers
and traders shoidd themselves institute an inquiry being carried out ? Your
colleague appeared to think it possible.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I am afi-aid as regards three
or four of the leading industries in this country you would find it impossible,
thev would have nothing of the kind.

196

Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have legislation atlirming it. in our country 2.", April lf»07.

subject to Britain adopting it.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : xMukiug it cumpulsoiy.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Providing it is adopted iu Britain, otliervvise it
would be no use to us.

Dr. JAMESON : It is the same with us ; it comes up regularly with us
and it is " when the Luperial Ciovernment passes a measure."

' II!'

Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have actually passed legislation giving the
Governor in Council power with regard to the matter.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It is ol)vi()usly a thing in
which one part of the Empire cannot move without the rest ; It must be inter-
dependent and it is not worth doing unless ou an Imperial scale.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I concur that unless it is Imperial iu its operation
ihci'e is no use troubling further about that.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : 1 am afraid there is no
present prospect of that at any rate.

Mr. DEAKIN : In face of the attitude of the Mother Country both the
metric system and the decimal currency are temporarily outside practical
politics ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : I am afraid so.

Dt< IMAL

Bonds.

STAMP CHARGES ON COLONIAL BONDS. g^^,,,. charges

Colon
Bonds.

Mr. DEAKIN : You arc still going to levy stamp charges on Colonial ®^' Colonial

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think we give you a good

deal there.

Mr. DEAKIN : If you have no intention of altering that either, whv

should we argue ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think for the reasons
stated here, and we make a very good case, we have given you under the
Colonial Stock Act — as I had occasion to point out to you the other day,
and I do not want to exaggerate it at aU— what you ought to agree is very
substantial.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is a preference.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : It is a preference of a most
substantial kind, as compared with all foreign securities. I had a calculation
made the other day for the purposes of the Budget, and I was informed—and
I think it is an under-estimation rather than otherwise — that about 300 millions
of Colonial Stock had benefited by being admitted to the category of, and
treated as, trust securities.

Mr. DEAKIN : I notice, however, in this table, comparing the prices
in February 1900 and February 1907, the argument implies, and I

N 2

196

25 Apr;l 1907. suppose it has a certain meariure of correctness, that Consols may be takon

as a standard in respect of these securities, without regard to the continually

Stami- Char(;es changing circmnstances affecting them specially.
ON Colonial

Bonds. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: All comparisons of that

(Mr. Deakiii). kind must be taken with a good many deductions, of course ; they are not

put forAvard as mathematically accurate, of course. There are lots of things

that happen in the interval, for instance, the war ; and great difficulties were

caused there.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes. Besides the great prosperity of New South Wales
and New Zealand affects the prices of their bonds quoted here.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : All these must he regarded
as illustrations. They are not put forward as demonstrations, Imt I thinlc
the facts stated in that memorandum show that we are really treating the
Colonial securities with a preference of a verj" substantial kind as compared
with every other security, including some of our own — including a large
number of our own — considering the amount of securities that have been
issued by our own municipalities.

Mr. DEAKIN : We always make a broad distinction between our
municipal securities and State securities.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Particularly if compared
. with foreign and leaving out mimicipal securities, we have given a very
substantial preference to the Colonies which I think ought to be regarded
as final for the time being at any rate.

1 think that concludes our Agenda, does it not, for the moment ? It
conies to this, Mr. Deakin, as far as you are concerned, that you would like
on the question of the silver coinage to have those fiu-ther particidars lor
which you asked and then to have a further discussion on the suljject.

u„nn.,: Pav- DOUBLE PAYMENT OF INCOME TAX.

"''^' Tax.^'"'"' Sir -JOSEPH WARD: Referring further to the question of double

])ayment of iucome tax, Mr. Asquith, I would like a little further information.
We have had a great many representations aboi;t it in New Zealand from
time to time. Take a shareholder in a company that is registered in England
and earns its money in New Zealand, assimiing he gets 1,OOOZ. as a dividend
from that company do you charge the income tax to the company on the
whole of its profits here, including of course the 1,OUO?., and then to the
individual shareholder on his 1,000/. too?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Is he resident in New
Zealand ?

Sir JOSEPH WARD : U resident here.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If resident Iicrc, if llir.
iucome tax is charged to the company then we are satisfied as far as we arc
concerned, and the company proceeds to deduct from his dividend his propor-
tionate share of the tax which they have paid to the Government here.

Sir JOSI'^PH WARD : And the shareholder is not charged again ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : No.

197

IJr. .TAMESON : lie will bring iorward a staleineul, I pfesuiue, that he 20 Ai.ril 1907.

paid on that occasion.

Dorm.E Pav-
MEXT OK Inohsik

CHANCELI.Oi'v OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes. If he is a person Tax.

entitled to an abatement ; that is to say, if his whole income is less than TOOL
a year, which is our upward limit for abatement, then he is entitled to an
abatement of sometliing between 701. and IGOL according to the amount of
his income, and he would be entitled pro tanto to have that refunded if the
company had taken the full rate from him.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I ask the question because we have had
representations made rather the other way. Taking the case of a limited
liability company registered in London and with their shareholders here,
earning its money in our coiuitry upon which they charge him income tax on
their earnings there — whom do you charge — the company ?

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : We charge the company.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : The shareholders are not resident in our country
at all in the case I am taking ; thej* are here. Amongst the representations
made is one that in our countiy the Company has first to pay income tax
to the New Zealand Government which is charged to the shareholders as a
whole, and then the iudivirUial shareholder pays again in England. That is
what we have been told.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER : Tliey could not possibly.

Dr. JAMESON : In the case of those paying income tax on money
earned in the Colony, say that they registered a companj^ in London,
therefore the profits wovild be received in London and paid out in London,
and so they would pay a second time in London according to the present
conditions because, as put here in the case of this company Sir Joseph
Ward is talking about now, the income tax is a tax upon income received
in the United Kingdom. If the company is registered here the income
will be received in the United Kingdom and your man will pay. Yours is
the same as ours in the Cape wliich taxes only the income earned in the
country where the tax is in force, biit it will pay both there and in England.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: That may be, but I thought
the question was wlicther we collected the tax twice over, once from the
company and ouce from the shareholder.

Sir JOSI-yPH WARD: Yes.

CHANCELLOR OF TUE EXCUEQUVAl : And my answer was
addressetl to that question. We never get the tax twice over.

Sir HENRY PRIMROSE : No.

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCMEQUEIJ : If you choose to tax him

you got it. There is nothing in international or muiiieipal law to lU'eveuL you
paying income tax twice, in two diil'erenl countries, if the laws of those
countries each allow it.

198
25 April 19or. Sir JOSEPH WARD : On the same earnings ?

Double Pay- CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes, nothine whatever if

MEXT OF InCOJIK . . . . . . ^, ■ , V , • "^ T-i i l i

Tax. they insist upon it. it is not against the comity or nations. Does that

conclude everything ? Thank you very much.

199

SEVENTH DAY. Seventh Day.
26 April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Friday, 26th April 1907.

Present :

The Right Houourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of State

J'or the Colonies (President).

The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laukier, G.C.M.Q-., Priuw; Minister
of Canada.

The Honourable Sir F. W. Bouden, K.C.M.G., Minister of Militia and
Defence (Canada).

The Honourable L. P. Brodeuu, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).

The Honourable Alfred Dkakin, Prime Minister of the ( 'onmionwealth
of Australia.

The Honourable Sir W. Lyne, K.C.M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (Australia).

The Honourable Sii- Joseph Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New
Zealand.

The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime Mhiister of Cape Colony.

The Houourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Public Works (Cape
Colony).

The Right Honourable Sir R. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Newfoundland.

The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.

General the Honourable Lottis Botha, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.

Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary T>nder Secretary of

State for the Colonies.

Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Pennanent Under Secretary
of State for the Colonies.

Sir J. L. J^Iacivay, G.G.M.G., K.C.LE., on behalf of the India Ollice.

. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., \ r ■ , c ,
. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., j ^"^^* ^^^^^^"^•'

at' /-I ITT T. ..;.',„.. ri -M r^ ' Y Joint aecretartes.

Mr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

Also present:

The Right Honourable The Lord Chancellor.

The Right Honourable The Earl of Crewe, Lord President of the
Council.

N 1

200

Seventh Day. Mr. H. Bertuam Cox, T'.B., Legal Assistant Under Secretary of Stat(

26 April 1907. for the Colonies.

Mr. E. S. Hope, O.B., Registrar of tlie Privy Council.

Uv. A. W. FiTZROY, C.V.O., Clerk to the Privy Conncil.

Imperial Court IMPERIAL COURT OF APPEAL.

OF Appeal.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we proceed to-day to the question of Judicial
Appeals. We liave before us two resolutions, one proposed by the Common-
wealth of Australia and another by the Cape Colony. I think Mr. Deakin is
ready to speak to the Australian resolution.

Mr. DEAIvIN : My Lord, my Lord Chancellor, and gentlemen, the
resolution of the Commonwealth of Australia is simplj^, " That it is desirable
to establish an Imperial Court of Appeal," by which it is intended to convey
a single Court of Appeal for the whole Empire, instead of as at i:)resent
retaining dual Courts, the one dealing with cases from India and the self-
governing Colonies, and the other dealing with cases arising within the
United Kingdom. It is unnecessary to go further back than the time of the
passage of the Commonwealth Constitution through the British Parliament,
when the question of appeal arose in relation to the discussions as to the
proposals in regard to appeals made in the Commonwealth Constitution, at
the verj^ outset of the discussion between the then British Government
and the representatives from Aiistralia who were charged with attendance
here during the passage of that BiU. In the very first document that
we received from the Government of the United Kingdom occurs a
memorable passage. It is headed, " Memorandum of the Objections of
" Her Majestv^'s Government to some provisions of the Draft Commonwealth
" Bill." I quote the statement made by the Government on page 152 of
the volume of " Debates in the Imperial Parliament with Appendices,"
published in 1901 from the British Hansard : " Proposals are under considera-
" tion for securing a permanent and effective representation of the great
" Colonies on the Judicial Conmiittee, and for amalgamating the Judicial
" Committee with the House of Lords so as to constitute a Court of Aj^peal
" for the whole British Empire." Again, on page 156, in a telegram from
the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, Mr. Chamberlain, to the
Governors of the Australian States, there is this, sub-paragraph 7 : " Her
" Majesty's Government feel that the actual restriction of the i^ower claimed
" to make fiirther restriction equivalent to the practical abolition of appeal
" would be specially inopportune at the moment when thej^ are considering
" the terms of a Bill for enhancing the dignitj'^ and promoting the efficiencj'^
" of the Judicial Committee by practically amalgamating it with the House
" of Lords and providing for permanent representation of the great Colonies
" in a new Court which it is proposed to create." In consequence of those
statements and their discussion then a Colonial Conference was called in 1901
■ — what would be now termed a subsidiary Conference — for the purpose of
considering this special question. Perhaps before referring to that I might call
attention, for the sake of those who are sufficiently interested to pursue the
course of this question, to the debates which followed in the Hoiise of
Commons when the Commonwealth Bill was under discussion. There are
a series of statements made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies,
l\lr. Chamberlain, who repeated the projiosal for the amalgamation of tiie
Ju(b'cial Committee of tlie Privy ^Council with the appellate jurisdiction of

tlio House oi Li)i-(ls as one of the groimds on wliicli lie resisted certain Scvfurh Duy.
amciHliiients of tliat Hill. Apart Ii-oni Mr. Cliamberlain a nunil)er of other 26 April 1907.

Members spoke, including Mr. Haldane, who pointed out that this proposal ,

of the Government was one wliich he and others had long supiiorted. Mr. I"'''^«Y'' *:."^'*'^

. . , ( -) 1 • 1 • 11 • 1 1 { 1 1- 1 '"'" Al'i'EAL.

Asquitli, at page -iz, also gave m his adhesion as one who looked lorwarii (Mr. Deukin.)
" to the constitution of a real Imperial Court of Supreme Appeal, a Couri,
" not to be forced on the Colonies against their will, but a Court of such a
" character and having such attributes as would appeal to every part of
" the Empire." Mr. liryce, another distinguished authority, at page 53,
echoed the hope that the Imperial Parliament would proceed with the
creation of this Court. The member for Dumfries Burgiis asked the
Committee to consider for a moment the real importance of the Appeal to
the Privy Council which he thought very desira1)le to retain if we could, but
admitted that it ought never to be imposed on the Colonies unless they
wished it. At the conclusion of his remarks he said that " the proposal
" then before the House would do no harm he believed to the " — Australian —
" Constitution, and certainly it contains no element of injustice or
" unfairness, but if they do not think so, and continue to express what
" exists to a considerable extent in Australia, a decided preference to the
" form of Bill to which they all agreed in the first instance, I would express
" the hope that the Government even now, after having done their best
" according to their own view of their duty, will revert to the Australian
" view." We were therefore encouraged to hope a good deal from the
Conference which followed in 19t)l, at which Canada, Australia, New
Zealand, South Africa, the Crown Colonies, and India were represented by
nominees. But the result of their discussions — the discussions themselves,
I think, have not been published — was that a majority consisting of five of
the members signed an unqualified reconuuendation tluit appeals should
continue to lie from the Colonies and from India to His ^Majesty in Council.
They went on to make certain suggestions that the appointments to the
Judicial Conuuittee should be made from the Dominion of Canada, the
Commonwealth, New Zealand, Soutli Africa, and so on ; the appointments
should be for life or for a term of years not less than 15 years, and arrange-
ments should be made for securing a larger attendance of Lords of Ai)peal
at sittings of the Judicial Connnittee. The recommendations of the five
ended there. Though these suggestions for the improvement of the Court
were endorsed by two other mem])ers, Mr. Justice Emerson and Sir James
Preudergast, I am not aware how far any steps have been taken to give
effect to any of the recommendations at which that Conference almost
unanimously arrived. I am quite in the dark as to any arraiigemeuts since
made for securing a larger attendance of Lords of Appeal at sittings of the
• ludicial Committee. Cases have occurred — one case qxiite recently, of a
very grave and serious character, to which 1 shall jiresenlly call some
attention — in which the presence of a larger comn)ittee would have been
extremely desirable. After the five signatories, Mr. Justice Emerson specially
added that he signed subject to the j>roposal that had been made for the
establishment of an Imperial Court of Appeal for the Empire. Jn the same
way Sir James Prendergast on ])ehalf of New Zealand signed subject to
the establishment of a new final Court of Appeal for the whole British
Dominions. Mr. Justice I lodges of \'ictoria, the representative of the Conunon-
wealth, added on our behalf not only a dissenting opinion but a further
request repeated at our d(>sire for the establislnuent of one Court of Final
Appeal. Three members of the Conference declared for an Imperial Ccjurt
of Final Appeal.

That, 1 tliiiU<, represents, as far as it is necessary to deal with it at
this time, the immediate history of this proposal.

202

Seventh Day.
26 April 1907.

Imperial Couut
OF Appeal.

(Mr. Deakin.)

Since those events the Government, and, I think, the great majority
of the Parliament and people of Australia, have not altered their attitude
upon this question. They are no more contented with the present condition
of appeal cases than they were in 1900 or 1901. Nor are their sentiments
likely to alter after the judgment given lately in an Australian case in which
two matters of vital importance came before the consideration of the Judicial
Committee. The first question related to the right of hearing an appeal at
all under such circumstances ; the second related to the principle of inter-
pretation to be adopted in respect to the constitution of the Commonwealth.
The two taken together raised the most fundamental public issues for Australia
that could well be summarised in any single case. It was heard by two Lords
of Appeal, one of them the late Lord Chancellor, and two Colonial judges —
a Court of four. If my memory serves me rightly, within two or three weeks
of the hearing of that case a Court of exactly twice the same str. :gth — four
Lords of Appeal and four other judges — assembled to rehear a case which,
so far as its financial subject-matter was concerned, affected the sum of 6001.
in the State of New South Wales. Of course, it is impossible to suggest,
even in the vaguest way, any scale of proportion by which the relative
importance of cases can be judged. Great principles may possibly arise in
connection with the smallest suras and slightest personal transactions. But
in the one particular case, as I have said, the scope of the Commonwealth
Constitution from a judicial aspect was in a measiire at stake. We cannot
think, and cannot for a moment admit, that under such circumstances the
arrangement by which that attendance of judges was obtained was satisfactory.
We are aware of the special manner in which this Court is constituted.
Attention has been called to that for many years. During the Australian
Convention, which resolved Tipon jjroposals restricting the Appeals to the
Jiidicial Committee of the Privy Council, that Avas one of the grounds upon
which a very decided view was talsen. Although alterations have been made
from time to time and decided improvements of late, it is evident that, even
regarded in its jpresent condition, the system adopted is by no means
satisfactory to us, nor, I think, is it satisfactory to niauy other than Australian
litigants.

The aim that we have was well expressed in course of the debate on the
Commonwealth Bill, if my memory serves me, by the Right Honourable
R. B. Haldane, when he said that he understood the Colonial view to be that
what in the shape of a Court of Appeal was good enough for the people of
Great Britain was qiiite good enough for ihe Colonies, and what was not
good enoiigh for the people of Great Britain was not good enough for
Colonial litigants. That was a very pithy way of putting the case as it
presents itself to us. We venture to entertain the opinion that notwith-
standing the theory of its relation to the Crown, but from a purely legal
poiut of view, the House of Lords is the tribunal to be preferred. It
certainly stands higher in the estimation, at all events, of Australian lawyers
than the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, speaking of it, of course,
as a Board and not under special circmnstances. If the two are to be
compared, having some regard, of course, to the differences in their procedure,
the House of Lords is preferred in Australia. The fact that in the case of the
Judicial Committee you get but one judgment has its advantages in the way
of simplification, and does not promote doubts which might otherwise arise,
bixt it leaves us absolutely unaware whether that jiidgment was arrived
at by a majority of one or by the unanimous consent of the whole of the
distinguished lawyers who form that Court. It has to be taken or left. The
practice of the House of Lords, which at the sacrifice of some apparent
simplicity does afford a great many lights upon every question submitted,
often from a number of quite individual standpoints, leads our litigants, as

2U3

far as I know their opiuiou, to prefer that method oJ" disposing of tlieir cases. iscvcnth Day.

It is uot so much on grounds of this character that we put forward this plea 26 April 1907.

for a single Court of Appeal, but rather on the ground that what we all desire,

and should desire, is the establishment of the very best Court of Final Appeal ",', k ' aVI-eal""

that can possibly be constituted. We believe tiiat even tlie wealth of le<ial ... ,, ,. \

knowledge and experience in this country, supplemented as it might be fi'om

the Outer Emj)ire from time to time, can scarcely be divided into two Courts

without one being less effective, or, what is ahnost the same, obtaining less

confidence than the other. Of course the fact that those members of the House

of Lords who are Law Lords participate in the Judgments of the Privy Council

has added the great weight which they Ijriug. In the Judgments of the

Privy Council, wliich are understood to have been much appreciated in the

Dominion of Canada, it was generally, I Ijelieve, considered that the most

prominent part in shaping them was taken by Lord Watson, a very eminent

and distinguished Judge, whose services were at least equally available in

the House of Lords.

Consequently, with the aim of obtaining if possible the veiy best Court
which the Empire can fiu'nish, and making it the strongest Court of Appeal
without rival or fellow, we are attracted not merely by the symmetry of the
proposal but by the fact that it would afford an assurance which Ave consider
we do not at present enjoy, that in regard to appeals from Australia, for
which alone I claim to speak, we would receive the Ijenefit of the very best
and strongest Court available. Comparing the Judicial Committee of tlie
Privy Council, as we see it, with the House of Lords, our opinion is that
of the two the latter is the more desirable Court.

The present proposal has become compHcated of course by the fact that
the representative Conference which assembled in 1901, although it consisted
of delegates only, did, by a majority, decide in favour of the retention of
the appeal to the Privy Council. I hasten to say that nothing is further from
our intention in making this proposal than while both Courts remain to
require those communities who prefer to appeal to the Judicial Committee
of the Privy Council to be diverted to any other tribunal on our account,
or for the reasons which commend themselves to us. I have, therefore, by
way of supplement, to say that our desires would be satisfied if His Majesty's
Government could provide, by Order in Council, or if not by Act, that it
should be possible for any of the King's Dominions which intimated its
desire in a formal manner to transfer its appeals, while the present sj'stem
of two Courts is maintained, from the Judicial Committee of the PriA';}'
Council to the House of Lords. Under that plan those who for one reason or
another are satisfied to lie within the jurisdiction of the former, would remain
as at present, their appeals following the existing course ; while on the
other hand the Commonwealth of Australia, and any other dominion which
on the whole, talcing all things into consideration, prefers to have the law
interpreted in the last resort by the House of Lords, would have the benefit
of coming under its jurisdiction. That, I take it, would in no sense disturb
either system. It would make some further demands upon the Lortls of
Appeal ; it would increase the amount of business before them, though, I
think, having regard to the lists with which they already deal, that it would
not be by any means a serious increase, that is to say, sufficiently serious to
render it a matter of moment. It would be a source of satisfaction to us in
Australia. It would not interfere with the equally free choice of any other
part of the Empire.

Although I feel some difficulty in alluding to the Judgment of tlie
Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, to which I have already referred,

204

Seventh Day. upou tlie appeal wltli relation to iucome tax sought to be levied hy tlie

26 April 1907. States of Australia upon officers of the Federal Government, yet I cannot

^ complete what I have to saj^ in this connection without calling attention to

Imi'erial Lci:;! ^^ situation that mav possibly arise in connection with that case which is not

O F A. P 1* E A L . ....

/ ... ", an unexpected situation, since it was clearly foreseen by the leading states-
^ '■ ^" ' men who took part in the debates upon the Commonwealth Bill at the
time it Avas passing through your Parliament. As you, my Lord, are well
aware — and probably our colleagues have some recollection of it — the
proposal ultimately placed in our constitution limited appeal to the Privj'
Council, and conferred iipon the High Court of Australia what we believed
to be and intended to be final jurisdiction in matters relating to the
interpretation of our own constitution. But, owiiig partly to differences of
opinion between ourselves as delegates, the majority of the British
Parliament, led by the Government of the day, introduced amendments in
that constitution which left us in a position of some uncertainty. I do not
wish to detain the Conference more than to refer very briefly to the fact that
Mr. Haldane, at page 07 of this report of the Debates, was, I think, one of the
very first to call attention to a remarkai)le situation that might possibly
arise in the future. I think it maj' very reasonably be expected to
arise either in connection with this case to which I have referred, or to any
decision Avhich follows the principles it lays down. Mr. Haldane pointed out
that " the clause provides that if you have litigation in a State upon a
" constitutional question, you may appeal either to the Privy Council or to
" the High Court. If you appeal to the High Court, the decision is to be
" final unless the High Court gives you leave to appeal to the Privy
" Council. It is, in other words, a court of final jurisdiction upon this
" matter." Then he coutimies, "As the clause makes the High Court
" of Australia a court of final jurisdiclion, there may well be conflicting
" decisions between the High Cotn-t and the Privy Council. I do not think
" that is an academic matter." The Attorney-General of the day, Sir Robert
Finlay, achnitting the apparent conflict, maintained that under such circxun-
stances the High Court would necessarily as of courtesy, and from a sense
of subordination, accept the ruling of the Judicial Committee ; but
members on his own side were doubtful, and those on the other side of
the House, and an authority as eminent in such matters — that is, matters
relating to a federal constitution — as Mr. Bryce, the present Ambassador to
the United States, repeated the warning that the constitution as amended
left these two tribunals in danger of conflict. He said-— when replying
to the Attorney-General — " He sviggested that imder the Amendment the
" Committee is now discussing the High Court of the Commonwealth of
" Australia will not be a court of co-ordinate jurisdiction with the Privy
" Council, and that it will be bound to follow the decisions of the Privy
" Council. I cannot feel by any means so clear as my right hon. and learned
" friend on that point, because we are here making a special provision for a
" special case." He said again : " Stirely it will not only be within the
" power of, but also the dtity and the right of the High Court to give full
" ett'ect to that provision of the Australian constitution, and to say, ' We are
" ' in this particidar matter made a final court of appeal. In all other
" ' matters we are undoubtedly a subordinate court, unless in a particular
" ' matter we are made a court of co-ordinate jurisdiction.' They
" would say : ' The only appeal is to lie from us, where we are satisfied
" ' there is some special reason ; we are bound to carry out the intention
" ' of the people of Australia and of the Imperial Parliament in not going
" ' beyond the express provision ; they have given no appeal unless special
" ' reasons, in our opinion, exist.' I think, therefore, that it will be open
*' to the High Court in future to hold that in this matter they are a court,

2(Jo

" uot of subordinate jurisdiction, hni of co-ordinate jurisdiction. 1 cannot ^>i'^i'"tli lifty.

" assent to the argument that, liecause they are subject to appeal in other 26 April 1907.

" cases, they are suldcct to api)eal in this case also." And lower down he ,.,,,. ~,,

says : i tnmk it necessary to enter a protest against the view the Attorney- ^,^■ ai-i-kal.

" General has taken on this point." I will not venture to delay the Couiorence z^^,. i)i.,,kj,|_)

l)y reference to the varying opinions expressed by ditl'erent ineinl)ers.

There was conflict of opinion then that pointed to the conflict in the future.

Perhaps I may be pardoned if I refer to the debates in the House of Lords, in

which the late Lord Davey viewed this very question. He dealt with it in

a very clear and emphatic fashion. At page 101 he is reported to have said :

"Clause 74" — that is the clause in question- — "as it stands is a perfect

" solecism in jurisprudence, and for this reason, that it creates two final

" co-ordinate courts of appeal, neither of which is bound by the decision of

" the other." Omitting some sentences, he goes on : " The Judicial Committee,

" of course, is not bound by the tlecision of the High Court, nor, as

" I understand, is the High Court bound to follow the decisions of the

" Judicial Committee in matters of this kind. They may, therefore, each

" maintain their own opinion. I know that the answer that may be made

" to me is that the Australian judges are men of such high principle and

" good sense that they will find some way of either agreeing with the

" .Judicial Committee or of allowing the matter to be finally decided.

" Tiiey may ; but it lies in their discretion, and unless they do so you will

" have two co-ordinate Supreme Courts of Appeal from the same courts

" on the same class of subjects deciding in entirely different ways. That,

" I venture to think, is a solecism in jurisprudence." Finally, the late

Lord Chief Justice of England (Lord Russell) at page 109 is reported to have

said : " The third and last point to which I will call attention is this. While

" there is no appeal according to this clause from the High Court exce]it

" by leave of that court, in the cases mentioned, there is an appeal from

" the decision of the State Court to the Queen in Council, and thereupon

" arises the conflict to which reference has been made— which court is to

" prevail ? I do not seek to dogmatise upon this matter, as to which there

" are obviously, from what my noble and learned friend has said, ilifferent

" opinions ; but I fail to see anything in this Bill asserting directly

" or indirectly, that where the decision of the Privy Council conflicts with

" the decision of the High Court, the decision of the Privy Council is to

" prevail. I see nothing to that effect expressed certainly, and nothing 1

" think to be implied. When I remind your Lordships that the clause

" expressly says that the High Court shall be the final judge in the matter

" unless it chooses to give leave, surely that does lay a solid and reasonable

" foundation for the contention that it is thereby, as regards matters so

" dealt with in the clause, created the final court, and therefore co-ordinate

" with the other final court, namely, the Privy Council. It seems to me

" that that is a difficulty which will very likely arise." Lower down he

says : " It seems to me that the conflict is inevitable."

I am, therefore, bound to consider the possibility that when the recent
Judgment of tlie Judicial Committee of the Privy Counc-il comes before
the High Court of Australia, as I understand it will within the next two
or three nionvhs, that out of this grave decision in the Income Tax case that
very conflict of opinion may arise. Such a contingency, even if only referred
to by way of illustration, suggests the advantage to be derived by the
acceptance, so far as Australia is concerned, of the proposal embodied in this
Resolution. The anomaly to which Lord Davey called attention remains and
is likely to remain a cause of serious inconvenience, perhaps of very serious
loss and cost to the Conunonwealth of Australia. That is, when in this

206

Seventh Day. case, Or some other case, some discrepancy becomes flagrant between tbe
26 April 1907. judgments of the two courts, which are in certain respects co-ordinate, and
, , , _ both of which are in terms final Courts of Appeal. Therefore, while not

OF Appeal. desiring to press for more consideration than we are entitled to on this head,
(Mr. Deakin.) "'■ submit, first, my general resolution with the qualification that it is not in
any way desired to be imposed upon any of the other Dominions who may
prefer to remain subject to the existing jin-isdiction. Supposing the Imperial
Court of Appeal is rejected, if His Majesty's Government, for one reason
or another, does not think fit to proceed with the distinct proposal made in
1900, and then apparently very generally approved, and .if our request
cannot be complied with because of differences among ourselves, or for
other reasons, perhaps His Majesty's Government would give their attention
to the suggestion of an optional appeal — not in each individual case, but
for all cases from Australia. Then, if necessary, after legislation by the
Commonwealth Parliament, all appeals from us might go to the House of
Lords, instead of, as at present, to the Judicial Committee. I make that
suggestion in order to clarify our position, and to remove all appearances
of pressure on other dominions, but not to detract fi'om our opinion that
the best possible manner of meeting the situation is the acceptance, as
early as may reasonably be possible, on conditions to be laid down by His
Majesty's Government, of the proposal for one court for the Empire.

Finally let me refer to the protest of Mr. Justice Hodges, the very
able representative of Australia in 1901. His concluding words relating
to this proposition are, " Such a court " — that is one Imperial Court of
Appeal for the whole Empire, sitting perhaps in two Divisions, and with
certain ai-rangements which it is not necessary to dweU upon, " would
" bring the best legal thought in the United Kingdom in touch with the
" best legal thought in the Empire outside the United Kingdom. It would
" . be a wonderfully strong court, and command the admiration and respect,
" not only of the whole British race, but of every race in the British
" dominions. It would be a powerfid factor in the development of a closer
" union between all parts of the Empire. In the British dominions it would
" obliterate in the administration of justice all distinctions between places
" and persons. Just as there is one flag to protect the subject from external
" assault, so there would be one court as the final arbiter of internal
" disputes." That is our view. We think it is a great ideal, and one which
ought to be served. We have not thought it necessary to appear to criticise
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Coimcil in its methods or manner. In
" The Life of the late Mr. Henry Reeve " there is a great deal of light
throvra iipon the manner in which the Board was then constituted — that
is the Judicial Committee — and apparently it is still open to the same
vicissitudes. With that great ideal before us, we respectfully submit the
resolution which I have the honour to move.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I would not like to speak at this moment.
I see that Cape Colony has also proposed an elaborate resolution on this
question, and I would like to hear what their representative has to say.

Dr. JAMESON : The resolution of the Cape Colony is more on detail
matters than the very large siibject brought forward by Mi-. Deakin, and I
would only say with regard to that general subject, we have entire sympathy
with Mr. Deakin in desiring a final Imperial Court of Appeal. Of course, as
to what that Imperial Court of Appeal should be, and what form it should

207

take, T must say, I think, from the South African point of view, we would Seventh Day.
differ from Mr. Deakin. We wonld rather it existed as coiistitiited at present -R April 1907.
— the Judicial Committee of tiie Privy Council- than the House of Lords, , ^ . . ,,„„„,

1 ,. 1 • TTT • >i 1 « ^ • 1 1 iMPEHIAl. COURT

and for a very obvious reason. We, in bouth Africa, are more or less under ^^. aiteai..
Roman Dutch law which, I imderstand, differs considerably from the t^nglish , j^j^. jm^gjon.)
law, and there is provision for this in an appeal to the Privy Council, and
we have a very able representative ou that court at present, who is an
acknowledged authority on Roman Dutch law, and naturally, from our
point of view, we woidd rather the final Court of Appeal should take that
form than the House of Lords where, of course, no such representative
could sit.

Mr. DEAKIN : The proposal of Mr. Justice Hodges especially provided
for the case of Roman Dutch law and local law.

Dr. JAMESON : That would remove my objection. I would not care
which it was, but one final court appeals to us very much.

With regard to the Cape Colony Resolutions, after studying the papers
with which we have been furnished ou the subject, I find a good many of our
suggestions have been met ; in fact 1 may say that practically the onus is
thrown upon the Colonies, and not ujjon the procedure of the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council, for any delay or extra expense that may
occur. Still T think, perhaps, it would not do any harm that these four
sub-resolutions should be passed as an indication that we are desirous of
minimising delay and curtailing expense as far as possible. But since these
Resolutions from Cape Colony were sent in, my colleagiies from South iVfrica,
— General Botha and Mr. Moor — and myself, have met together and have
formulated some further proposals wliich we should like to bring before the
Conference, which General Botha wiU propose presently. They mainly
relate to our own local affairs. At the same time they also relate, if I am
rightly informed, to the condition of the Appellate Courts in other Stales
too. We, in South Africa, are very anxious to get established a final
Court of Appeal in South Africa for all the various States. Of course,
supposing Federation comes about, that would come naturally. We believe
Federation is coming immediately, but stiU we feel that it would
be advisable that we should prepare at once, and get established if
we can, as part of that Federation and even before that Feileration,
a liual Court of Appeal in South Africa. Our present position is we have
a Supreme Court in each of the Colonies. We have other District Courts.
There is an appeal from a District Court to the Supreme Court. Similar
cases occur in the various Colonies, and we are faced with absolutely
dissimilar decisions in the vari(;us Colonies, which naturally leads to a good
deal of discontent. So we are anxious that we should have a final Court of
Appeal for the whole of South Africa, but that will entail considerable expense,
both to set it going and maintain it afterwards, and we feel that we would
not, unless the various States are in agreement on this subject, be justilietl in
undertaking that expenditure unless we were permitted, which I understand
is the word to use, by His ^lajesty's Government to ])ass legislation in our
own various Colonies, taking away the right of appeal from the Supreme
Courts in each of the Colonies to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
1 think that possibly might suit some other States also, and we should aU be
anxious to do it. So that our Supreme Court of Appeal would be a final
Court of Appeal except that it might be put into the Statute by which it is
created that ou certain subjects--possibly on relations between the various States
and so on- there might be permitted an Appeal to the Privy Council by per-
mission of that Supreme Court. Those cases would be very few. So really it

208

Seventh Day. woald be a final Court ol: Appeal sci far as we are concerned, except in special
21) April 1907. cases which would be laid down \t the same time, I would add that the

prerogative of the King — the right of every citizen of the British Enipire to

Imi-ehiai.Couut appeal to the King — must be carefully safeguarded, but that would
practically not be used, because I understand, supposing the right of appeal
(1 I-. iiTiie.soii.) ^^,_^_ refused in a particular case by the Appeal Court to the Privy Council,
and an individual still wished to go to the Privy Council, as his right is, of
course, the practical point is that if he won his case or lost it, he woidd still
have to pay all the costs, which would be a considerable deterrent to anyone
taking that extreme action.

1 think I will leave General Botha to lu'ing forward these further
resolutions.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : Who do you suggest would" constitute the
:5uperior court — the final (Jourt of Apj)eal in South Africa ?

Dr. JAMESON : Judges selected in South Africa by all the Stales in
South Africa.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: Judges who hud previously tried portions of the
cases ?

Dr. JAMESON : No, we would like, idtimately, when the business was
large enough, to have separate judges for it, but as a tentative measure they
might be selected from the various States, and if there was not enough work for
the judges to do in the Appeal Court they might be the superior judges in the
various States. That is a detail to be managed out there, but the idea would
be that the judges of the final Appeal Court would have their time occupied
as judges of that Court.

Mr. DEAKIN : With the jurisdiction you propose T do not think there
would be much doubt about that.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : No, I think not.

General BOTHA : My Lords and gentlemen, I have little to add to what
Dr. Jameson has said. We have a Memorandum. If the Chairman thinks it
necessary, I should like to hand in this Memoranckun so that the other Premiers
may peruse it. There is a resolution attached to this Memorandum which
we should like to support. Dr. Jameson has rightly remarked that there is a
great desire in South Africa to establish a Court of Appeal, and, although
we have there four Colonies, we think that we can commence Federation l)y
establishing this Appeal Court for South Africa ; specially also because this
will in a great measure reduce the amount of costs, and it will be specially
advantageous to the poorer classes who cannot aiford to carry appeals to the
Privy Council, to go to a Court of Appeal in South Africa. I will, therefore,
ask lea\ e to hand in this Memoranchun, and I shoidd like to add tcj that
Memorandmn the resolution which we, the Premiers of Soiith Africa, have
arrangi^d to support.

CIIAIPMAN : I think it would be belter if von would read boti).

209

The Memorandum and Resolution were read as follows : — Seventh Day.

26 April 1907.

MEMORANDUM.

Impehial Codrt
Question of Jddicial Appeals. »'•■ Ai-i-eal.

There is no objection to the Resolution of Cape Colony on the question
of Judicial Appeals, but it does not go far enough.

There is a general feeling throughout South Africa in favour of the
establishment of a South African Court of Appeal to which appeals would lie
from the decisions of the Supreme Court of each of the South African Colonies,
even before a federation of these Colonies becomes an accomplished fact.

It has been urged, however, that the expense of establishing and
maintaining such a court would not be justified as long as there is a right of
appeal from the Supreme Court of each Colony to His Majesty in His Privy
Council.

If a Court of Appeal is established it is considered most desirable that
this right of appeal to the Privy Council should Ije taken away, so as to
prevent a litigant dissatisfied with the decision of the Supreme Court of a
Colony passing by the Court of Appeal and prosecuting his appeal from such
decision, before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.

It is also desirable that when such CVmrt of Appeal is established, its
decisions should be linal, excepting in certain matters in which that Court may
grant leave to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. These
matters would, of course, be prescribed in the statute establishing such a
court. The right of any litigant to apply to the Judicial Committee of the
Privy Council for leave to appeal to it from a decision of the Soiith African
Court of Appeal should not in any way be curtailed. The following
resolution is suggested : —

(1) That when a Goxnt of Appeal has been established for any group

of Colonies geographically connected, wdiether federated or not,
to which appeals lie from the decisions of the Supreme Courts
of such Colonies, it shall be competent for the Legislature
of each such Colony to abolish any existing right of appeal from
its Supreme Court to the Judicial Committee of the Privy
Council.

(2) That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shall be final but leave

to appeal from such decisions may be granted by the ssaid Court
in certain cases prescribed by the Statute under which it is
established.

(3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial Committee

of the Privy Council for leave to appeal to it from the decision
of such Appeal Court shall not be ciu-tailed.

CHAIRMAN : Do you wish to add anything, Mr. Moor ?

Mr. F. R. MOOR: No, my Lord, 1 have nothing to say. We have
considered it together.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Jly Lord and Gentlemen, I have listened
with great care and attention to the view presented by Mr. Deakin in support
of the resolution which the Conunonwealth of Australia have laid before
the Conference. But if I understood him aright his argument was rather
an indictment of the Constitution which was finally passed by the British
Parliament for the Commonwealth of Australia in this : that that provided
for two appeals from the decision of its own courts. As he has presented

i 4866'*. O

no

Seventh Day. the matter to us, the diiahty of appeal must necessarily lead to some

26 April 1907. confusiou, and so far as it goes it seems to me his argument cannot

he successfully met, and nobody now would he interested in opposing

OF Appeal ^^- "^^^ British Parliament no doubt can remedy the evil since they are

f Sir w Laiiricr ) ^^^^ paramount power, but perhaps they would have some hesitation in

interfering and making Avhat would practically be an amendment of the

constitution of a federal country.

Mr. DEAKIN : That we have not asked for.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : No, and I believe the British Parliament
would hesitate also to do it iintil they had heard from the dift'erent states
which composed the Federation.

Mr. DEAKIN : Even in that case we should not ask for any intervention.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : As I construe it the resolution which you
have presented, " that it is desirable to establish an Imperial Court of
Appeal," would be practically an amendment of the Constitution of
Aiistralia.

Mr. DEAKIN : No.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes, since there are two appeals granted, if
you destroy one I take it to be an amendment of the Constitution.

AVith regard to the question of a Court of Appeal in South Africa, so far
as it concerns the Conference I do not know that serioiis objection can be
taken to that. If the three Colonies or dependencies in South Africa
are agi-eeable to have a Court of Appeal for themselves, nobody else can take
exception to it. It seems to me to lead in the direction of immediate
federation. If they have a Court of Appeal for themselves, this leads to the
ultimate and proximate creation of a federation for all purposes. This woidd
certainly be in the best interest of themselves and the Empire.

So far as Canada has any concern we have an appeal to the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council, and it has, as a general rule, given very great
satisfaction. I do not know that all its decisions have been accepted. There
are few courts which have not their decisions criticised within twenty-foiu'
hours, but as a rule the decisions of the Privy Council so far as concerns
Canada have been eminently satisfactory. At the same time everybody must
recognise that the constitution of the Court is not, perhaps, quite in accordance
Avith the modern age and tendencies. The point made out by Mr. Deakin,
that the constitution of the Court may be one day four and the next day eight
is certainly a point well taken, and is liable to create dissatisfaction, and,
perhaps more than dissatisfaction, serious complications. It seems to me that
the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council should be remodelled if it is to
be maintained. I may say that in my country the views of the j)eople are not
all in accord as to the retention of that appeal. Some jurists have maintained
that any country oiight to be able to interpret its own laAvs, that is to say, the
Parliament Avhich creates the laws should be the Parliament to create the
tribiuial to interpret those laws. There is a great deal of force uudotibtedly
in that view. On the other hand thei'e are some jurists of equal eminence
who believe that taking us as avo are at the present time a part of the British
Empire, in Avhich so many questions of Imperial interests must necessarily
arise even in the loAvest courts, it Avould be a good feature to retain the present
appeal to the Judicial Committee of the PriA'y Council. The present Minister
of Justice, as able a man as Ave have ever had in Canada, is of this opinion

211

to-rlaj', though some of his prodecessors, an.J, I believe, his predecessor in 1901, Seventh Day.
hehra different view. But there is a serious question, a serious conllict of 26 April 1907.

opinion when you come to the question of the jurisdiction of this Court. ~"

Under the Canadian Constitution the adnuuistration ot justice docs not of Appeal.
belong to the central government but to the Provincial govcrnmouts. So ,gj^ ^ Laurier.)
that we have only one court in our country of a federal character, that
is the Supreme Court, which is a Court of Appeal for the Provinces. But the
provinces themselves have retainetl their jiuisdiction and kept the liberty of
going to the Privy Council, so that practically whilst the Dominion of Canada is
represented at this Conference, the provinces of the dominion, in so far as
they have retained for themselves tlie administration of justice, are not
here represented, and it would be a delicate matter to pass finally
without consTiltino; them a question of so much importance. The question
of jurisdiction will always be, so far as this Court is concerned, the one
great difficulty. I am sure that the Imperial Government have no
desire to impose their views as to what should be the jurisdiction. This
should be left to the provinces themse1v(>s to determine. The Judicial Com-
mittee of the Privy Council have always decided — and it is a matter of
common every day occurrence — that the King has retained his prerogative
of allowing anyone who chooses to take an appeal before the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council. That appeal, which is an appeal of favour,
has perhaps passed the day of its utility, and if I have any opinion to proffer
upon this question it would be that all matters of jurisdiction should be
relegated altogether to the parties interested — the provinces or the Parlia-
ments— to determine whether and why there should be an appeal or not.

On the whole, we have two resolutions presented to us, one bylMr. Deakin
for the Commonwealth of Australia, and one by Cape Colony. I prefer for
my part the resolution of Cape Colony. A further draft has 1)een submitted
to us wliich is based upon the resolution of the Cape Colony, and I would be
disposed to accept it with the suggestion that one or two words should be
eliminated. In the first paragraph the resolution runs as follows : " This
" Conference, recognising the importance to all parts of the Empire^of the
" maintenance of the Appellate jurisdiction of His Majesty the King in
" Council desires to place upon record its opinion." I would eliminate the
word maintenance. I do not oljject to the words " appellate jurisdiction,"
because I rather favour it, but in view of the conflict of opinion which exists
in my country 1 would prefer those words out ; they would not alter the
sense very materially, but it would not be such an absolute pronouncement
upon the matter.

Mr. DEAKIN : Might 1 simply explain to Sir Wilfrid Laurier that I
have no intention, either directly or by implication, of suggesting any legis-
lation to the Lnperial Parliament which could affect the present existing
Commonwealth constitution. Nothing was further from my thoughts. From
a desire for brevity I omitted to explain, as perhaps I ought to have done,
that this co-ordinate jurisdiction of our High Court is only on a particular
class of cases wliich may come before it. We have powers under the
Commonwealth constitution to restrict appeals to the Vr'wj Coimcil fi-om
the Supreme Courts of the States, which we have not exercised, and next,
subject to the consent of His Majesty, to still further restrict appeals to him.
Neither of those powers has yet been exercised, and the consequence is, I
think I should be safe in saying, that nineteen-twentiefhs of our cases are
still open to appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Con-
sequently, quite apart from the other issue I have raised, we have a gi-eat
interest, having such a large area of appeals to the Privy Council, in asking
that the Imperial Court of Appeal, which we assume woukl be a body of still
higher standing and repute, should deal with these appeals, quite apart

O 2

212

Seventh Day. from tlie particular class of constitutional questions referred to. It is to
26 April 1907. our interest to have a single Lnperial court instead of the Privy Council.

If we cannot obtain it, and must make a choice between the two existing

OF Appeal. courts, we prefer the House of Lords. In any case we advocate an Imperial

CM D k"n ") Court of Appeal, because we still believe that appeals from Australia are

not likely to be much reduced for some time to come. If we wanted

any amendment of the constitution Ave should provide for that ourselves

according to the constitution and in no other way.

Sir WILFRID LA.URIER : I thought your argument was that you had
two Courts of Appeal in Australia at the present time.

Mr. DEAKIN : On one class of case.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The object you had in view was to suppress
one of them and provide only for one, if I understood your argument aright.

Mr. DEAKIN : In constitutional cases an appeal is still allowed by
consent of our High Court, which may refer them on to the Privy Council.
]f we had an Lnperial Court of ApjDeal instead of the Privy Council it is
quite certain that those references would be more encouraged than they
are at present. Then, again, public opinion coidd be better satisfied than it
is now in Australia. For both those reasons and others we think the
establishment of an Imperial Court of AjDpeal is very desirable.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : My Lords and Gentlemen, New Zealand is in a
slightly different position upon the point referred to by Mr. Deakin. We
have no federal High Court. Our position is a very clear and defined one.
Our Supreme Court, which sits as a Court of Appeal twice a year at the seat
of Government, so far as Ave are concerned is quite satisfactory. But Ncav
Zealand is in favour of an ultimate Court of Appeal in the United Kingdom,
AA^hether it be the PriA^y Council as at present constituted or an Imperial
Court of Appeal, as suggested by the CommonAvealth resolution. That is
why I asked Dr. Jameson what he proposed to set up to take the place of it,
and I understood him to say an idtimate Court of Appeal.

Dr. JAMESON : An ultimate Court of Appeal for South Africa only.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I agree in that. You stiU believe in appealing ?

Dr. JAMESON : Absolutely.

Sir JOSEPH WARD: There is only one point 1 Avant to refer in
connection Avith this, and I do so on information furnished to me fi'oni
legal authorities in my OAvn country, as I am speaking entirely as a layman.
I take the opportunity of mentioning it in the hope that possibly the Home
Government might in future be able to see their way to meet an opinion which
has been expressed by legal gentlemen in my OAvn country. I am infomiod
one great defect in the Privy Council, as at present constituted, is that though
in the case, say of New Zealand, they are deciding according to New Zealand
law, yet they have before them only such portion of that laAV as is presented
by counsel. Now in recent times particularly Ave have been sendingj counsel

213

over from New Zealand specially to call attention to the New Zealand side Seveuth Day.

of the law. I am informed that when the argnment*1s over, their Lordships ^^ ■'^P'"'' 1907.

may applj* some rule of English law which has l)eeu rcn'oked in Xew Zealand imi-ekial Court

or omit to ajDplj' some rule of New Zealand law which does not exist in ^y Appeal.

England, ami which they at the moment have not specially brought (gir Joseph

imder their knowledge. I am told that has actually occurred, and the W'urd.j

results, Avlien it has occurred, has been to the people who are the litigants

in our country very unsatisfactory. What has been suggested from a New

Zealand standpoint to prevent that is that in the case of every appeal from

a colony, a ju(lge of the Supreme Court of that Colony should sit with their

Lordships, but without taking part in the arguments or decision, his

function Ijcing to supply full information as to the Colonial law and the

points of difference between it and the English law. I may say that in

most cases the number of judges in the colonies is such that one can be

always on leave, and if he spent his leave in England, or in touch with

England, he would be available. My country is strongly favouralde

to the admission of Supreme Court judges to the Privy Council. But

distant as we are and where we are with vast interests involved at times,

we Avant to be quite sure that the state of New Zealand law is fully before

their Lordships who are dealing with the cases. That is the most practical

suggestion from our point of view, whether it is feasil>lc or not is for those

responsible here to see — but I put it forward with all respect and urge it from

the standpoint of the practical working of the administration of a country

which, from time to time, must have numbers of cases referred to the Privy

Council for judgment. If that could be done, so far as New Zealand is

concerned I think I am right in saying that the whole system of administration

would give very general satisfaction in our countiy.

I may also suggest, that as there have been suggestions made by the
various Colonies, perhaps the simpler course would be for the Home
Authorities to prepare a Draft Order in Council consolidating the existing
state of things with such alterations and simplilications as they deem reason-
able, and forward the draft to the respective Governments to confer thereon,
inter se, and make a conuuon report as to alterations desired or recommended,
in this way there would result an Order in Council containing the general
rules common to all appeals, and special ndes dealing with appeals from
specified Colonies in cases where special rules are necessary.

I may say the main suggestions for the purpose of avoiding delay and
reducing expense put forward by the Cape Colony commend themselves to
me, and I should be only too glad to give them my supjtort. I do not know
the circumstances Sir \\'ilfrid Laurier refers to in Canada. The disabilities
under Mr. Deakin's resolution, as applicable to Canada, do not apply to
New Zealand. As long as it is understood we have the Court of Appeal in
the I.'nited Kingdom — the Privy Council as at present constituted, or the one
suggested by Mr. Deakin — I am perfectly satisfietl on behalf of New
Zealand.

Sir ROBERT BOND: Lord Elgin and Gentlemen, in the Colony
that I have the honour to represent we have the right of appeal to the
Privy Council, and so far as I am aware that is entirely satisfactoiy. In
1904, I think, a despatch was sent out from your Department asking for an
expression of opinion in reference to an amendment of the rules which govern
Privy Council practice. At that time I submitted the contents of the despatch
to the Judges of the Supreme Court, from whom I received an intimation
to the effect that generally the delay and expense in prosecuting these appeals
are the principal causes of complaint, and those which, in their opinion,
mostly require remedy. In the first place, with regard to delay, they pointed
out that while it was perfectly correct that the Privy Council has no control

i 48(i68. O 3

214

Seventh Day. over the proceedings until the record is lodged, tliey submitted that the three

26 April 1907. mouths now limited between the time of the filing o£ the Petition for leave

to appeal, and the perfecting of the bond obtaining leave is too long, and

Impekial Court ^]^^ suggested two months from the date of the Colonial Judgment should

rs' R h I M n * ^"^® fixed. As regards the expense, their Lordships were of opinion

o er . OIK .; ^^^^^ ^^^ costs of appeal are much too higb, especially the fees paid in the
Privy Council Office.

These were the only two matters that they thought called for their
conunent, and I oidy feel justified in putting forward their views on the
matter.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : My Lords and Gentlemen, I wiU endeavour
to speak to the different points that have been raised in this very interesting
and instructive discussion. I think the first thing that must occur to all of
us is the diversity of interests that have to be considered and the diversity
of conditions that obtain in the different parts of His Majesty's dominions.
My view is, and I think we shall all agi-ee in it, that in those circmnstances
all that can be done is to recognise and act unreservedly, upon the j)rinciple
of autonomy, that each integral unit of His Majesty's dominions should
govern itself in the matter of appeals ; that one should not necessarily be the
same as any other, but each should govern itself. 1 can saj' this, that as far
as His Majesty's Government is concei-ned, we most cordially fall in with that
and will do aU we fairly can for the purpose of furthering the views of all
concerned.

May I say a word with reference to what Mr. Leakin said as to the
anomalous position — what Lord Davey called a solecism in law — created by
the fact that in a limited class of cases in Australia there may be two courts,
each of them bj^ the constitution final in a particular case that they tletermine,
which need not necessarily come to the same conclusion. Of course that is
a solecism in law. I am not sure exactly how it arose, but I have some
recollection in the House of Conmions of the debate and it seems 1 took part
in it, as Mr. Deakin was good enough to quote me, and I seem to have said
that it would have been, perhaps, better to leave the constitution of
Australia as the Australians had sent it over the water, a sentiment
in which I probably keep true to my past views and my present views.
But that was not the view adopted. However, this I say, that when
Mr. Chamberlain suggested — and, of course, it was accepted by Australia
or it never would have been in the Act — that the Australians should accept
this view, I am sure he did it in the very best interest, as he believed, of the
friendly and close connection between the two countries. 1 am sure his object
was a good one. If anything has gone wrong in regard to that, which 1
should be very sorry to think, the Australian Parliament has the power under
their constitution to alter it themselves if they think fit. I can only say in
regard to it, that upon the ground of sentiment I like to sit as an Australian
Judge on the Privy Coimcil, and I hope 1 may not be deprived of the
privilege.

In regard to the other points referred to by Mr. Deakin as to the Privy
Council, it is quite true that in Mr. Reeve's book, and also in the Greville
Memoirs, if I remember rightly, there are references to the ways in which
the Courts were made up, which were not satisfactory. The English courts
were not altogether satisfactory at that time either. 1 think we have all
made progress generally. We attend to these things a little more closely and
rjetter than we did.

Let me say what is the constitution of the Privy Council and the House
of Lords respectively. They consist of the same persons, who sit in different
places, with this difference that all the persons who can sit in the House

215

of Lords judicially are entitled to sit in the Pri\y Council and do sit there ; Seventh Day-

but iu the Privy Council, having regard to the I'act of past opinions expressed 26 April 1907.

by Colonial Ministers, and to a general feeling that we want, so to speak, to ij,,.erial Court

enlarge the scope as much as we can, there are other additional members „^. appeal.

who are not mend:)ers of the House of Lords. There are two ineuibers of the /-^'i^g L^^d

Privy Council who may be specially appointed, and receive a salaiy. There Cbaucellor.)

are two also who may be appointed without receiving any salary, and without

any specilic qualification. There are two such persons, distinguished men

both of them. In addition to that there is the Act under which five gentlemen

may ])c appointed, and five have been appointed, including Sir Henri

Tascherean, Sir Henry De Villiers, Chief Justice Way, and two other

distinguished men. I will say a word about that Statute in a moment.

Besides that, all those who have held high judicial office, the conditions

of which are prescribed, in any part of His Majesty's dominions, if mend)ers

of the Privy Council, may sit on the Judicial Committee. Therefore it is what

may be called in its composition a somewhat cosmopolitan court. My friend

the Ijord President of the (Council delegates to me this part of his duty,

namely the smnmoning of the Privy Councillors for the purpose of hearing

these appeals ; and 1 can only say — and you will credit it — that not only

myself but all my predecessors (audi am certain it will be the same of my

successors, whoever they are) have been most anxious to provide as strong a

court, and as good a court as can be made for the hearing of Colonial

appeals, not only appeals from the self-governing states of the British

Dominions, but of the Crown Colonies. I hope we are anxious, and always

shall l)e to have as good a court to hear a Fiji appeal, as to hear an appeal

fi-om the Dominion of Canada. We are in this dilliculty, that we have to man

two courts, and I am afraid it is not easy to alter that. We can do it without

overwork, and it woidd be very undesirable that we should have overwork. I

think we have full work, and overwork would ])e very undesirable considering

the character of the tribunals of the House of Lords and the Privy Council,

and the gravity of the cases which often come to them. What we do is

we divide quite impartially, and I can assure ilr. Deakin that in the House of

Lords the English appeals are not favoured at the expense of the Australian

appeals — ^not Ivnowingly or consciously favoured. We try to make the best

Courts Ave can. Let me refer to the case which Mr. Deakin referred to. I

was not sitting on that case myself, but there were fom- judges — Lord Halsbury,

whom we all recognise in this country to l)e one of the greatest judges

we have ever had, a very great judge. Lord Macnaghten, Sir Arthur Wilson,

and Sir Alfred Wills. It would be unbecoming in me to pass panegjn-ics upon

my colleagues and friends, but I should feel myself very uncomfortal)le if I

differed from them on a point of law.

Then there was the case of the eight judges. That was, I think, the
only time we have sat with eight for many years, but we did sit as eight
because we first sat as four, and I was one of them. The case raised a
point which was considered one of very great dilficulty, and there was a
difference or a sense of extreme difficulty in the case although the sum was
not large.

'o^

Mr. DEAKIN : It was a New South Wales case affecting, I think, the
State land laws.

The LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, and we got it re-heard by eight
judges, because it was found to be so dillicult a case. W^e said, "No, we
" will not settle it ourselves but get four more judges." We got Lord
Halsbury and the whole of the four Law Lords and myself. It was a
re-hearing with eight, and then we came to our conclusion which was I
hope a right conclusion.

O 4

116

Seventh Day.
26 April 1907.

Imperial Court
OF Appeal.

(The Lord
Chancellor.)

1 Avill say a word aljout tlie arrangement for Colonial judges sitting, in a
moment, and simplj^ say this to Mr. Deakin that I lilie, and I am sure we all
like, free and open criticism, and that we are all the better for it, I have not the
least doubt. Really, if he will believe it, taking appeals to the House of Lords
instead of the Privy Council Avould be a great disarrangement of our system,
and would really mean coming before the same people in another place, and
you would not have the advantage, which I should like to have (without an
Act of Parliament altering the whole thing) of the presence of an Australian
judge : you Avould not have the advantage of some of the very distinguished
men like Sir Arthur Wilson, who are ornaments to any courts You would
limit the number of judges from whom the selection could be made
to hear your cases. But I hope this will satisfy Mr. Deakin. I can assure
him not merely that we have taken every pains that we can, but that
we Avill do our level best to give his cases, as all the other cases,
strong and adequate courts just as good as Ave shall be able to giA^e
our oAvn people. Remember this as regards nimiber ; I knoAv in some
countries — in France where they have a great genius for j urisprudence, and
they may be right — in some of the Coiu'ts of Appeal they have a great number
of judges. In England the custom has been all through our history to limit
the number. We think that five is quite large enough — understand in saying
" Ave " I speak for everybody — and is by many of us regarded as quite as
many as you ought to have in a court. Seven have sat sometimes, but, as a
rule, Ave think that is too great a number, but if it is a very special case we
Avould have seA^en or eight, just as in the case I referred to just now. The
genius of our jurisprudence is to pick your best men ; to see you haA-e first-
rate men, and not to haA-e too many. Perhaps that is AvTong ; but that has
ahvays been the custom, and you Avill find that the greatest decisions in the
history of England, AA'hich have made history, so to speak, have been decisions
given by quite a limited nimiber of judges — but they have been of the very
best. We will try to do our best in that respect.

Let me now come to Avhat Mr. Deakin said with regard to the limitations
of appeal. Li 1900, Mr. Chamberlain Avent the length of stating in
Parliament that he had contemplated the creation of one court, the House
of Lords being fused with the Privy Council into one great court. I think
it Avas found there was A^ery great dilficulty in carrying out that project. If
you think of it intrinsically there is a great difficulty in it. Let me take it
by stages. When we speak of an Lnperial Court of Appeal we do not ahvays
make it quite clear what we have in our minds. In the first place, there is
a suggestion, such as is made by Sir Josepb Ward, namely, that one or more of
the judges from Ncav Zealand, or from any other part of the British Dominions,
should come and sit in the Court of Appeal on the hearing of a New Zealand case
or in a case from their OA\m country. I xmreservedly agi-ee to Sir Joseph
Ward's proposal. I have had experience myself. I remember an Australian
case relating to sheep, about great tracts of land and the mortgaging of it,
and so forth, and Avhen I AA-as arguing this case before the PriA-y Council
I was stopped by Chief Justice Way who happened to be present, AA'ho put
in a piece of local knowledge Avhicli I am afraid exploded my contention
aboxit sheep farming and sheep management — knoAvledge which Ave did not
possess. That is only an illustration. It is also true that there may be
jDoints of law, even though the laAv in Xcav Zealand be the same as our own
law, in Avliich avc should be much the better for having assistance, and very
ghxd to have assistance. I do not think any matters of importance in regard
to laAV are left out by Counsel, and Ave find it out for ourseb^es too. I
unreservedly agree, and heartily think it Avould be a good thing, if each of
the different parts of the British Dominions, each for the hearing of their
OAvn cases, could send to us one of their distinguished judges, and I need not
add it would he a great pleasure and honour to receiA-e him amongst us.

Imi'ekial Court

OK Appeal.

(Tlie Lord

217

Then j-oii come to the next stage, wliether there ought not to be a court Seventh Day
on which not merely representatives of the particuhir part of the worhl 26 April 190:
from which the appeal came were sitting, Init whether you ouglit to have the
Privy Council of itself, consisting normally and ordinarily for all purposes of
the representatives of all, or a good many, of the dilferent parts of the
British Empire. You must rememher that that concerns not only the self- Chiinceflor!)
governing Colonies, but the Crown Colonies from which a good many appeals
come, and India from which a great many of the appeals come. Of course it
is a difficulty, though it is not an insurmountable ditliculty, but itwoidd make
a very large court. No one would say that every place should be represented
at all times, but it would mean a very considerable numl)er of jxidges sitting.
Still, if Australia, for example, or any other part of the British Empire,
desire that their cases shoidd he heard, not merely by the judges of the
United Kingdom with the assistance of their own, but also by judges from
other parts of the British Dominions, the Cape, Canada, India, and the Crown
Colonies, and those countries are willing to send us the judges, we can have
no objection. It seems to me to be a part of the autonomy of Australia or
Canada, for example, that if they wish it done, they are the persons to decide
whether it shoidd be done. It is part of what, in the familiar language of
this Constitution, is called the order and good government of the Colony.

Then comes the still further stage, the third stage, and that is the fusion
of the House of Lords into the Privy Council. It is a mere question of
jurisdiction, liecause the persons are the same substantially, with the addition
of larger nundjcrs in the Privy Cmuicil. That is a proposal the effect of which
woidd be to alter the tribunal to which P^nglish, Scotch and Irish appeals
have always gone — English appeals from time innnemorial, and Scotch
appeals since the Union in 1707, and Irish appeals since ISUO. lu
the same way as the cpiestion of constituting a different tribunal for Australia
could not l)e done without delilieration in Australia, so this could not be done
here without being fully considered in the United Kingdom which it
affects.

This last stage directly affects the United Kingdom — whether they
will alter the tribunal to which they have been accustomed. I must saj' it
has hardly been discussed in the United Kingdom. We have been very busy
about many other things as you may suppose. It has never been really
discussed. It was brought forward by Mr. Chamberlain in April, 1900, and
I think a few speeches and observations were made about it, but it has never
been l)rought up since. I do not think it has been ventilated in the Press
beyond the idea, or what I would rather call, if I may, the aspiration that
there should be community of judicial authority over the whole British
Empire. The aspiration I think is felt, but it has never been thought out,
discussed, or threshed out. Therefore, I cannot help thinking myself that,
it would be a pity to make an affirmation in such general tei-ms as are
contained in the Australian proposal ])ecause I think it is premature as far
as the practical consideration of it in the, United Kingdom is concerned.
But I also feel thus : It is apparent that there is a sense in Australia that they
are not altogether at ease in regard to Privy Council Appeals. I am sure
the Privy Council is in regard to Australian cases an Australian Coiut, and
what we ought to do is to try and satisfy the people in Australia not only
that justice is done, biit that every effort is made to do it, and as cheaply
as possible.

Before I turn to the other matter which I am afiaid I must trouble you
with, may I say a word in regard to what was said about delay? No
complaint has been made, I think, liut what really has happened is this :
Since I have become Lord Chancclloi' — and I only take that as the time
because I know about it — beginning in 1906, 16 months ago, we put down

218

Serenth Day.
26 April 1907.

Imperial Court
OF Appeal.

(The Lord
Chancellor. )

appeals as soon as they are ready, and whenever there ia a sufficient
nimiber of them we sit and try them, perhaps five successive lists in the
course of a year. We had a list which we heard in February and March
1906. All that were ready were put down, and we heard and disposed of
them all before we separated. We put down a second list in March and
April. We finished every one of the cases. All those had become due since
the beginning of March. In May we had another list, and we finished all the
cases ; and we also had a supplemeatarj^ list of those cases which had become
ready while we were sitting in the month of May. They were set down for
hearing after the list of the May sittings had been closed, and .one of them I
think was heard. In Jime and July we proceeded with aU the cases that
were then ready, and heard them all except one Indian Appeal which stood
over by order for a particidar reason, and another Indian Appeal which stood
over at the request of both sides. There were two Maritime Appeals which
stood over by order with the consent of the parties, owing to special
circumstances; We also heard one additional appeal which had been entered
after we began sitting. In October to December we resumed oiir list, and
finished all the cases except one appeal from British Guiana which stood over
at the request of the parties. In addition to that, we heard three supple-
mentary appeals which had been entered after we began sitting. In January
and February of this year we sat and heard all the appeals, and we also in
March heard four additional appeals which had been entered while we were
sitting. The Privy Comicil is now sitting, and I expect that in the course of
ten days or so we shall finish oft" every case that was ready when we began to
sit, which was eight, or nine, or ten days ago. I do not think you will find
any record of the way in which business is done which will beat us in regard
to that. As regards the point of delay, I must say I think there is a good
deal to be said for leaving it, as has been suggested in some of these different
counnunications, to the Colonial Courts themselves to regulate all the
procedures, and the time, and so forth until the case is brought and
presented to the Privy Council. After that we shall be able to deal with it
and dispose of it with the rapidity to which I have referred.

May I turn to the next resolutions, to which Dr. Jameson alluded, and
which I think he said are to a considerable extent satisfied by what has been
said. Perhaps I may go through them : " This Conference, recognising the
" importance to all parts of the Empire of the maintenance of the Appellate
" Jurisdiction of His Majesty the King in Council, desires to place i;pon
" record its opinion : — ' (1) That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects
" ' beyond the seas it is expedient that the practice and procedui-e of the
" ' Right Honourable the Lords of the Judicial Committee of the Privy
" ' Council be definitely laid down in the form of a code of rides and
" ' regulations.' " The first point is that the practice and procedure should
be definitely laid down in the form of a code of rules and regidations. That
1 think is a very good idea, and we think it is quite right, and we will
consolidate and amend so as to conform as nearly as can be to modem
circumstances and requirements, and with a view to facilitating and expediting
the hearing of appeals. 1 am sure Dr. Jameson wiU remember that our
difficulty is of a practical kind. AVhen we consolidate and amend, if we are
to send to every part of His Majesty's Dominions, that is an enormous
thing to do. Answers come back perhaps not all agreeing, and then ensues
correspondence. It is a herculean task, and takes a great time. But we will
try to do it, treating it really as consolidation, and taking upon ourselves the
responsibility. Peally, after all, practice and procedure, while imi")ortant,
does not raise vital matters of principle, and if you will leave it to us Ave will
send round to the different Colonies.

Dr. JAMESON : You might put in the words " as far as possible."

219

The LORD CHANCELLOR : It is a matter of business detail, we will Seventh Day.
try to meet you with regard to it, and I think we shall satisfy you. 26 April 1907.

The second Resolution is : " L'hat iu the codification of the rules, regard ^

" should be had to the necessity for the removal of anachronisms and ^'"^p"ArrErL'*^

anomalies, the possibility of the curtailment of expense, and the desirability

of the esta])lishment of courses of proceedure which woidd minimise
" delays." The second is of course involved in the first. The third is : " That

with a view to the extension of uniform rights of appeal to all Colonial
" subjects of His Majesty, the various Orders iu Council, Instructions to

Governors, Charters of Justice, Ordinances, and Proclamations upon the
" subject of the Appellate Jurisdiction uf the Sovereign should be taken into

consideration for the purpose of determining the desirability of equalising
" the conditions Avhich gave right of appeal to His Majesty." In every
Order in Council there are some provisions which are common to every
set of circumstances ; liut the priut'ipal variations are dependent upon the
diversity of the different countries that have to be dealt with. For instance,
the principal variations relate to the sum of money which is to warrant an
appeal. Xow that varies between '.MM. and 2,O0UZ. It is a matter upon
which each country may have different views ; but whatever a country thinks
there will be no difficulty whatever in giving effect to it. I doubt myself
whether, in a matter of that kind, it is desirable even to press for uniformity.
Perhaps uniformity in things of that kind might not be advisable.

Dr. JAMESON : The idea was that all the Premiers being together
they might effect some general agreement.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : It is a luxury to us to have unifonnity.
We shoidd be the last people to object ; ])ut, if the Prime Ministers, being
here, should come to any arrangenumt al)out that so nuich the better. The
same in regard to the limit of time for appealing as of right, and the lodgment
of security for costs. If Dr. Jameson were to say : " So far as may be
agreed upon by different parts of His Majesty's dominions " we shoidd
not make any difficulty.

Dr. JAMESON : I quite imdcrstood that. The Premiers being here, the
subject might be raised, and our idea was that the Imperial (Jovernment
might imdertake to correspond with the various States with a view to getting
luiiformity.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : I must not take upon myself Lord Elgin's
functions, and no (loul)t he will help in anything of that kind. I am only
speaking from the actual point of view of the Privy Council.

As regards the last Resolution it says : " That much uncertainty, expense
" and delay would be avoided if some portion of His Majesty's prerogative to
" grant special leave to ajtpeal in cases where there exists no right of appeal
" were, under definite rules and restrictions, delegated to the discretion of
" the local courts." I think that is quite right. It is .so in India. It is
regulated by codes of civil procedure, and it can be regulated by your own
Parliament. You niay pass in the Cape, if you like, an Act of Parliament ;
or it may be done and has been done by Orders in Council. If you should
prefer it should be done by Orders in Council it woukl be perfectly easy to
do it.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: "That much uncertainty, expense, and
" delay would be avoided if somu portion of His Majesty's prerogative to

220

Seventh Day.
26 April 1907.

Ijipekial Cockt
OF Appeal.

(Sir W. Laurier.)

" grant special leave to appeal in cases where there exists no right of appeal
" were, under definite rnles and restrictions, delegated to the discretion of
" the local courts." I would rather see that done by the central authority
than hy the judicial authority.

The LORD CHANCELLOR: I tliink Avhat it means is that leave to
appeal in a particular case — not the general rule laying down when there should
Le leave to appeal — shoid-d be put in the power of the local courts to give,
instead of litigants being obliged to come and apply to the Privy Council for
leave.

Sir WILFRID LALRIER: That could be done without legislative
authority. I know in my Province, when I was a young member, an interesting
discussion took place on this point.

The LORD CHANCELLOR: You would have to do it by Act of
Parliament. It is in the case of the Crown Colonies that we do it by Order
in Council.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Yes, and a great many members favour the
absolute abolition of the prerogative of the Crown to hear any complaints
from any subject all over the world. It was conceded that Canada under our
iVct could take away that prerogative, but the opinion prevailed at that time
that the right should not be interfered with. Whilst in some cases we have
restricted the number of appeals, no man can take away the right of appeal
to the Privy Council. If a case involves over 2,000 dollars, he can come
as of right to the Privy Council ; but, as a matter of fact, he can come to
the Crown and ask for leave to appeal. I would prefer to leave this.

Dr. JAMESON : This is made to a great extent unnecessary by the
further Resolution Avhich we have brought in in concert to-day, where we
say what we want is to have power to legislate, and then, when we form a
special court of appeal, that there shall be only certain things which shall
be capable of being the sidjject of appeal to the Privy Council, and power to
grant that leave shall be left in the hands of the final court.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER
of Parliament.

I would rather say it should be in the hands

Dr. JAMESON : It Avoidd he Parliament really, because Parliament
would legislate as to that point.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : It would satisfj- me if you -svere to say :
" That much uncertainty, exj)ense and delay woidd be avoided if some
" portion of His Majesty's prerogative to grant special leave to appeal in
" cases where there exists no right of appeal were, under definite rules and

" restrictions " leaving the rest out.

Dr. JAMESON : I am quite willing to do that. Our fourth Resolution
practically puts it in tlie hands of the local courts.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : I misapprehended the point Sir Wilfrid
was takiug. It is obvious the Privy Council cannot make laws to govern

Imperial Coort
OF Appeal.

221

the self-governing Colonies in any way. I was speaking of it, as I have Seventh Day.
been speaking of it thmughout, not, niero^ly in relation to the self-governing 26 April 1907
Colonies, but to the whole British Empire, because the Privy Council has
jurisdiction everywhere.

(The Lord

Mr. DEAKIX : Except in the United Kingdom. Chancellor.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, it has jurisdiction there too, in
respect of patents. What I meant was you could do it in the Legislatures
yourselves as you please, and it is for the Legislatures to pass your own
laws, and for the local courts to carry out the laws the Legislatures pass.
It is possible to do it by ordinance in the Colony, or Order in Council here
in the case of Crown Colonies.

May I turn now to the other supplementary points Dr. Jameson has
given us. I think his general object is the establishment of a final Court
of Appeal in Soiith Africa, with certain restrictions upon the right of appeal
from South Africa to the Privy Council, which is obviously a matter for the
South African Colonies to determine for themselves. If they pass their own
Act they can set up their own Court of Appeal in South Africa, unless they
like to invoke the machinery of the Imperial Parliament by asking the
Imperial Parliament to do it. I do not know whether they would or not.

Dr. JAMESON : I miderstand the Lnperial Parliament might use its
machinery supposing we pass such legislation at the present moment as
would deprive our own State even of the right of appeal to the Privy
Council.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: As I understand, you want to have a Court
of Appeal for the three Colonies — the Transvaal, the Cape, and Natal. In a
case which would affect you in Natal yoTi want to have a Court of Appeal
for these three parts ?

Mr. DEAKIN : And the Orange River Colony.

Dr. JAMESON : We want it for all, but, to justify us in doing that, we
must take away their right of appeal from the present Supreme Court direct
to the Privy Conncil.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : You must have legislation of the Imperial
Parliament for that.

Dr. JAMESON : Yes, that is what I am asking. We want their approval,
at all events.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : It really comes to tliis : You would set up
your own court for all the self-governing Colonies in South Africa — and
probably the Orange River Colony will have a c-onstitution in the course of a
few Aveeks— a South African court in South Africa. That would be your
work. If you wanted the auxiliary liel]) of the Imperial Parliament for
other purposes, it may be constitutional and the most convenient way of doing
it. I, for my part, greatly hope that, however the functions of the Privy
Council maylie restricted, the conn(>ction will not be severed between the
Privy Council and the courts either in South Africa or elsewhere. Hut every
self-governing portion of His Majesty's Dominions has its own right to regulate
its own affairs, and do as it thinks fit in regard to that.

222

Seventh Day.
26 April 1907.

Imperial Court
OF Appeal.

Dr. JAMESON : The point I wanted lu know about is this question of our
dejDriving ourselves of the right of appeal to the Privy Council. Do I under-
stand we could only do that by Imperial legislation or an Lnperial Order in
Council ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR : You could not do it by Imperial Order in
Covincil because it would be interfering with your own affairs. By the
Imperial Parliament it could be done if the Colony asked that it should be
done — and it would be done. It is rather a novel point. My present
irapression — and I am sure you will not tie me to it if I am Wrong — is that
the Parliament of a self-governing Colony with the Royal Assent could
regulate that as well as anything else.

Mr. DEAKIN : Is not there power by Order in Council to restrict the
conditions of appeal ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR : When the constitution is set up the King
has no power whatever to interfere with, or derogate from it.

Mr. DEAKIN : Surely he rules in his own court ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR : Yes, the King might be advised to say
by Order in Council that he would not undertake such and such an appeal.
After all, we are now getting upon constitutional methods of carrying it out.
The machinery is not so important, after all, as the object. May I suggest to
Dr. Jameson that if he reads these three resolutions closely, he Avill find they
are not quite consistent, because if in No. 3 you keep the right of any person
to apply to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for leave to appeal
to it from the decision of such Appeal Court, and you say that is not to be
curtailed, it is inconsistent with abolishing the appeal in particular cases.

Dr. JAMESON : No, this is abolishing the appeal from the present
Supreme Courts of the various States of South Africa direct to the Privy
Coxmcil, because this would be constantly going on, and our new Court of
Appeal might have nothing to do. We want to abolish that, and, as far as
South Africa is concerned, we want this new Appeal Court to be the final
Appeal Court, except in stated cases to be mentioned in the Statute creating
the court. Then we say we know the prerogative of every British subject is
the right of final appeal to the King, and we want that safeguarded, so that,
outside of that, any subject could come to the Privy Council, but he has then
to ask for leave to appear before the Privy Coxmcil. What we want out
there is that any case nmst go to the Appeal Court in South Africa before it
can go to the Privy Council.

The LORD CHANCELI,OR : I think I see your point. Then there
are General Botha's resolutions, the substance of them having been explained
hv Dr. Jameson. I think Sir Wilfrid Laurier merely suggested an amendment
to one of the Cape resolutions : " This Conference recognising the imj)ortance
" to all parts of the Empire of the maintenance of the Appellate jurisdiction."

Dr. JAMESON : I am willing to take the words out. If they had never
been in I should not mind, but taking out something looks like weakening
the idea.

223

CHAIRMAN : Then we take oiti v.hose words. Seventh Day.

26 April 1907.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : That (>nds aU I have to say, except that

there was a reference to the fee of the Pri^y Coxincil Office. The fees ^^'o^ApprAu^''

ordinarily chargeable to a sucfessfiil appellant and respondent are about ]5l.

anti 131. respectively, and to an unsuccessful appellant and respcsident il. and

SI. respectively. It has not been suggested before that the fees are too high.

We have not received any suggestion of that kind. We will look into it.

The suggestion came from NcAvfoundlaud.

Sir ROBERT BOND : I was putting forward the views that were
expressed by the Justices of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : I think that is all I need say, except this :
that the Privy Council is very conscious of its responsibilities, I can assure
you, and is proud of being able to sit as His Majesty's Court for the different
parts of His Majesty's Dominions.

Mr. DEAKIN : Do I understand you to take exception to the resolution
of which the Commonwealth has given notice, that it is desirable to establish
an Imperial Court of Appeal ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think it is asking us in the United
Kingdom to adopt a resolution which lias not been in the least considered in
this country, and I think myself it is premature. I do not want to speak
hostilely to it.

Dr. JAMESON : You used the word "aspiration." Would not we pass
it in that form, that it is a fair aspiration ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR: I think our people would be rather
s\irprised and startled, remendjering that this is a new subject to us altogether,
if we were to commit ourselves to the idea of an Imperial Court of Appeal,
which means one court for the whole of the British Dominions, and a
reconstruction of the House of Lords and the Privy Council.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : The adoption of your resolution. Dr. Jameson,
commits those who are here present, and the Oflicers of the Crown, to an
inquiry into the present constitution of the Privy Council. It is a very ancient
tribunal. This resolution has some very good words in it — that there are
anachronisms and anomalies. There are many things wliich I think can be
eliminated. If the Privy Coimcil is reconstructed that is practically the
court. It does not matter by what name it goes. At present, this i-esolution
being adopted we must have a report, as I understand, from the Officers of
the Crown with a view to carrying out the suggestion. Then we can see
if we should go further. At present I am quite satisfied in adopting this
resolution.

Dr. JA]\I1']S0N : And after this investigation, the result of it taking
place on the part of His Majesty's Government will be such a suitable court
that it will be suitable for the United Kingdom also. Therefore, I cannot
see why we should not pass the Conmionwealth resolution as our aspiration
of the one which will be created out of the Privy Council.

224

Seventh Day. ii^._ DEAKIN : 1 do not know whetlier I should enlist Sir Wilfrid

26 April i907. Laurier's support to an amendment of this first resolution by which it would

J ^ ^, read " That the Conference recommends to the consideration of His Majesty's

OP Appeal. " Government the establishment of an Imperial Court of Appeal."

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Do you mean we should pass the resolution ?
It seems to me not particularly compatilDle.

Mr. DEAKIN : The first resolution would then be reduced to an
aspiration.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have no objection to an Imperial Court
of Appeal. I do not care what name you call it ; whether it is the House
of Lords, or the Judicial Committee, or any other body, it matters not very
much. For my part I prefer Dr. Jameson's resolution.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : Do you include General Botha's addition ?

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have no objection to that. It is not a
matter which concerns this Conference, but concerns the three Colonies
there represented.

Dr. JAMESON : If you and other members in the Conference agree,
it will help us a good deal in getting this machinery, which the Lord
Chancellor has foreshadowed as necessary, carried out.

Sir n' ILFRID LAURIER : With all my heart. You are far away, and
you want to have a Court of Appeal for South Africa which should be final
in most cases, and from which alone there can be an appeal to the Privy
Council.

Dr. JAMESON : That is exactly it.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I quite agree with that.

Sir JOSEPH ^VARD : I favour that very cordially too.

The LORD CHANCELLOR : I think everyone agrees in regard to the
resolution of Cape Colony, and General Botha's additional resolution. If the
resolution as to the Lnperial Court of Appeal were accepted, of course it
would be the committal of the United Kingdom to a variation which, as I
have said, they certainly have not considered, and which I think we ought
not to agree to.

Mr. DEAKIN : Have you any objection to our asking you to consider it
if we alter it in that way, " that the Conference reconnnends to the cousidera-
" tiou of His ^lajesty's Government the establishment of an Imperial Court
" of Appeal."

CHAIRMAN : His Majesty's Government arc represented in the
Colonies.

225

The LORD CHANCELLOR : Is nut that one of the thiug^; which relate Seventh Day.
to the order aud good governmout ol' the Uuited Kingdom ? 26 April 1907.

i\[r. LEAKIN : I am bound to a(hnit that is one of the reasons why we ^"o^Ari-L^vL""^
put this resolution forward in terms that are intentionally vague ; if it were
otlierwise it would have seemed as if we were impcjsing something upon
the United Kizigdom, though it affects us both. I am satisfied to have put
forward the proposal. 1 do not desire to place His Majesty's Govermuent in
a dilliculty. I recognise the force of the stat(Muent of the Lord Chancellor
that as yet the matter has not l:)een matured in this country,

CHAIRMAN : Would it not meet your case if we treat it in this way :
that we record this resohition as having been submitted by you and (Hsoissed ;
then proceed to say that the resolution propose/1 by the Cape (!olony has also
been discussed, and that the ('onference thought effect should be given to its
rc^conimoiidatioiis ; then make the samc^ sort of deliverance with regard to
General Botha's additional resolution. That would put your resolution on
record, but not bind us who feel a ditlirulty in the matter to any further
action.

Mr. DE.\KIN : In this Conference it is undesirable to attempt to liind
any of its memljers to that to which they take exception. ]\Iight I point
out that while I do not question the statement directly, or by implication, of
the Lord Chancellor, as to the impartial treatment of the courts, yet, in the
very constitution of the Privy Council, if my memory serves me, the enact-
ment says that the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary shall, "subject to the
discharge of their duties in the House of Lords," attend the sittings of the
Judicial Committee. That distinctly places upon the Lords of Appeal a
mandate for their consideration of their duties in the House of Lords before
their duties in the Privy Council. Again, you pointed out the very great care
with which the court of which you were a member dealt with the New
Soutli Wales case, to which reference has been made, when you said that
although four members of the Judicial Committee assembletl to hear it, you
had a re-hearing with eight members because it was an important matter.
Extremely satisfactorj^ as this: was in that case, it only emphasises the
distinction between it and a case which, from the pul)lic point of view,
was of iimnensely greater importance, alfecting so many vital constitutional
issues. Yet that case was finally decided by a court only half as large, after
an argument which, I fear, was imperf(>ct, in a Judgment dealing with
matters which, so far as the records show, do not appear to have been argued
at all. Unhappily, the members of the Board on that occasion did not seem
to perceive that the issues were specially important or tliat they demanded a
stronger Committee. I only mention tiiat by way of illustration of the risk
suitors run by not being able to secin-e the same very wise and considerate
treatment which the court gave in the New South Wales case.

Finally, while it is pericctlj- true that we have to take upon our own
shoulders the responsilulity of having accepted in our constitution those
terms out of which this judicial anouialy has arisen, it stands on record that
we did so only to sav(^ the whole constitution. It was one of those choices
which all practical politicians have to make. We made it with our eyes
open, but none the less reluctantly, regretfully, and now rememlier it
repentantly.

CHAIRMAN : My suggestion is this : that the finding of the Resolution v.,
Conference might run in this form: — That tlic i'ollowing resolution of the !'■'*"'•
Commonwealth of Australia, "That it is desirable to (^stal)lis]i an imperial

E 48668. P

226

Seventh Day. Court of Appeal," was submitted and fully discussed. The resolution
26 April 1907. submitted by the Grovernment of Cape Colony as amended was accepted as

follows : —
MPEEi^L^^^^oiTRT -'This Conference, recognising the importance to all parts of the Empire

,_,, . . of the appellate jurisdiction of His Maiesty the King in Council, desires to

(Chairman.) , ^^ ■> ^ . . . j ^ o '

place upon record its opmion : —

" (1) That in the interests of His Majesty's subjects beyond the seas it is
expedient that the practice and procedure of the Eight Honour-
able the Lords of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council
be definitely laid down in the form of a code of rules and
regulations.

■■ (2) That in the codification of the rules, regard should be had to the
necessity for the removal of anachronisms and anomalies, the
possibility of the curtailment of expense, and the desirability of
the establishment of courses of procedure which would minimise
delays.

" (3) That, with a view to the extension of uniform rights of appeal to all
colonial subjects of His Majestj?^, the various Orders in Council,
Instructions to Governors, Charters of Justice, Ordinances and
Proclamations upon the subject of the Appellate Jurisdiction of
the Sovereign should be taken into consideration for the purpose
of determining the desirability of equalising the conditions which
gave right of appeal to His Majesty.

"(4) That much uncertainty, expense, and delay would be avoided if
some portion of His Majesty's prerogative to grant special leave
to appeal, in cases where there exists no right of appeal, were
exercised under definite rules and restrictions."

The following resolutions presented to the Conference by General
Botha, and supported by the representatives of Cape Colony and Natal, were
accepted : —

" (1) That when a Court of Appeal has been established for any group
of Colonies geographically connected, whether federated or not,
to which appeals lie fi'om the decisions of the Supreme Courts
of such Colonies, it shall be competent for the Legislature of
each such Colony to abolish' any existing right of appeal
from its Supreme Court to the Judicial Committee of the Priyj^
Council.
" (2) That the decisions of such Court of Appeal shall be final, but leave
to appeal from such decisions inay be granted by the said
court in certain cases prescribed liy the Statute under which
it is established.

" (3) That the right of any person to apply to the Judicial Committee
of the Privy Council for leave to aj^peal to it ft-om the decision
of siich Appeal Court shall not be curtailed."

The Conference adjourned till Tuesday, April 30th, at 11 a.m.

227

EIGHTH DAY. Eighth D.>y.

30 April 1907.

Held at the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
Tuesday, 30th April 1907.

Present :

The Right Honourable The EARL OF ELGIN, K.G., Secretary of State

for the Colonies (President).

The Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., Prime Minister
of Canada.

The Honourable Sir ¥. W. Borden, K.C.M.G., !\rinister of Militia and
Defence (Canada).

The Honourable L. P. Brodelr, Minister of Marine and Fisheries

(Canada).

The Honourable Alfred DE^vxl^, Prinu' Minister of the Connnonwealth
of Australia.

The Honourable Sir W. Lynh, K.C.:M.G., Minister of Trade and
Customs (iVustralia).

The Honourable Sir JosErii Ward, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of New
Zealand.

The Honourable L. S. Jameson, C.B., Prime j\linister of Cape Colony.

The Honourable Dr. Smartt, Commissioner of Pul)lic Works (Capo
Colony).

The Right Honourable Sir K. Bond, K.C.M.G., Prime Minister of
Newfoimdland.

The Honourable F. R. Moor, Prime Minister of Natal.

General The Honourable Louis Botua, Prime Minister of the Transvaal.

Mr. Winston S. Churchill, M.P., Parliamentary Under Secretary of
State for the Colonies.

Sir Francis Hopwood, K.C.B., K.C.M.G., Permanent Under Secretary

of State for the Colonies.

Sir J. L. Mackay, G.C.M.G., K.C.I.E., on I.elialf of the India Oilice.

Mr. H. W. Just, C.B., C.M.G., \ r ■ , ^ , •
Mr. G. W. Johnson, C.M.G., j '^^"^^ Secretartes.

]\lr. W. A. Robinson,

Assistant Secretary.

Also present :

The Right Honourable 11. H. Asquith, M.P., (.-hancellor of the Exchequer.
The Right Honourable D. Lloyd George, JI.P., President of the Board

of Trade.
Mr. W. RuNciMAN, M.P., Financial Secretary to the Treasury.
Mr. H. K. Kearley, M.P., Parliamentary Secretary to tlu^ Board of Trade.

r 2

228

Eighth Day ^^^' ^- ^^- HAMILTON, G.C.B., K.C.V.O., Permanent Financial Secretary

30 AprU 1907. t° the Treasury.

Mr. H. Llewellyn Smith, C.B., Permanent Secretary to tlie Board of

Trade.
Mr. A. Wilson Fox, C.B., Comptroller-General of tlie Commercial,
Labour, and Statistical Department of tlie Board of Trade.

Mr. G. J. Stanley of the Board of Trade.

CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, we proceed to-day to a very important series
of Pesolutions concerning points on which we know there is difference of
opinion, but which, I have no dotibt, we shall discuss, as we have hitherto,
with an attempt to understand each other. I suppose wo shall proceed as
we have hitherto done, that is, ask those Colonies who have submitted
Resolutions to explain to us in the first place the reasons which they ■wish to
adduce. There is only one observation which I should like to make on the
matter. My two colleagues beside me have come to deal wuth two sides of
this question. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will deal with the fiscal
side, and the President of the Board of Trade with the side relating to
treaties and other matters. I assume from a study of the Resolutions that in
some of them both sides are dealt with, and I venture to suggest, as a matter
of convenience, that we should treat them separately, and that we should, in
the first place, take up the discussion of the fiscal side, on which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer will reply. I do not know whether there has
been any arrangement between those who have submitted Resolutions as to
the order in which they will speak to them, but I naturally turn, as I have
hitherto done, to Australia in the first instance, and ask if they are prepared
to open the discussion.

Mr. DEAKTN : If that is the preferal)le course to pursue, in your
opinion, I certainly will do so ; but perhaps Sir Wilfrid Laurier would prefer
to make a statement of some kind.

Prefekential PREFERENTIAL TRADE.

Trade.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, so far as
Canada is concerned, the statement which I have to make will be very brief.
Our views upon this matter have l^eeu kno-\\u for some time, and at the last
Conference they were the subject of ample discussion which resulted in the
Resolution w^hich was adopted on that occasion, and which is to be found on
page 3(3 of the Blue Book. The Resolution was in these terms, first : " That
" this Conference recognises that the principle of preferential trade between
" the United Kingdom and His Majesty's Dominions beyond the Seas would
" stinudate and facilitate mutual commercial intercourse, and would, by
" promoting the development of the resources and industries of the several
" parts, strengthen the Empire. (2) Tliat this Conference recognises that, in
" the present circumstances of the Colonies, it is not practicable to adopt a
" general system of free trade as between the Mother Country and
" the British Dominions beyond the Seas. (3) That with a view,
" however, to j)romoting the increase of trade within the Empire, it is
" desirable that those Colonies wliich liave not already adopted such
" a policy should, as far as their circumstances permit, give substantial
" preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of the United
" Kingdom. (4) That the Prime Ministers of the Colonies respectively

229

" in-i^e on His Majesty's Government the expediencj' of granting in the Eighth Day.
" United Kingdom preferential treatment to the pro(hicts and mainifactures 30 April 1907.

" of the Colonies either by exemption from or rednetion of duties now or

" hereafter imposed. (5) That the Prime Ministers present at the Con- Pi"-^e"extial
" ference nndertake to submit to their n^speetive Ciovernments at the .'^"'\'^'^'.

" earliest opportunity, the principle of the Resolution and to request them (S'r \\ilfri.l

to take such measures as may be necessary to give eflect to it. The
Canadian Government adhere to this Resolution, and have none other to
propose than that, and I intend at the proper time to move it again. As I
understand the Resolutions of Australia, they agree in substance with this
Resolution. The first three parts, I think, are verbatim the same. As to the
others, there is not much diiference between the fourth and fifth parts of
the Resolution adopted in 1902 and the Resolution proposed by Mr. Deakin.
But perhaps Mr. Deakin himself will show what dilference there is, and what
he has in mind in sul)stituting the new ilraft for what the previous Conference
concluded.

Mr. DEAKIN : ily Lord, ^Ir. Asquith, and gentlemen, our variation lies
first of all in the omission from the fourth Resolution of the words " either
by exemption from or reduction of duties," words which do not appear to
be material to the substance of that proposal, and its application to the
self-govern iug dominions between themselves. The fifth paragraph does not
mark a departure. The fifth says it is desirable that the United Kingdom
gi-ant preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of the
Colonies. That is complementary to tlic proposal included previously in
tbe third Resolution, which was that the Colonics were to give substantial
preferential treatment to the products and manufactures of the United
Kingdom. By adding the fifth Resolution it is intended to propose that
we should recommend the adoption of reciprocal preference as in the fourth
Resolution of 1902 — a preference from the United Kingdom in return for any
preference granted to the United Kingdom, or, at all events, in association
with that.

In moving these Resolutions may I, in a very brief fashion, in the first
place allude to the rather significant circumstance that from the earliest
occasion of the sunnnoning of representatives of the self-governing Dominions
to a Conference of all parts of the Empire, this very question at once pre-
sented itself as a natural and j^roper, if not necessarj', subject for consideration
as between the several Parliaments concerned. It has never been omitted
since from any of these Imperial assemblies. When the first Conference
assembled in 18S7, with that prescience for which the late Ijord Salisbuiy was
distinguished, he put in the forefront of his brief adilress to the assembled
representatives the situation as it then appeared, in these wcnxls, which appear
on page 5 of the Reports of the Proceedings of 1887*" : "I fear that wo must
for the present put in the distant and shadowy portion of our task, and not in
" the practical part of it, any hope of establishing a Customs Union among the
" various ])arts of the Empire. I do not think that in the nature of things it is
" impossil)le ; I do not think that the mere fact that we are separated by the
" sea renders it impossible. In fact, the case of Ireland, which has a Customs
" Union with England, shows that it is not impossible. But the resolutions
" which were come to in respect to our fiscal policy -lU years ago set
" any such porssibility entirely aside, and it cannot be now resumed until
" on one side or the other very different notions with regard to fiscal
" policy prevail from those which prevail at the present moment."
The Colonies at that time were as thej' are now, more or less definitelj'
Protectionist in principle. The United Kingdom was then, as it is nov»,
practically Free Trade in every detail. The prospect, therefore, of any form
of " Customs Union " — words used, of course, by the Prime Ministei-, in a

' [C. 5091].
18668. P ,3

230

Eighth Day. very general sense — had to be postponed, as lie indicated, nntil tliere should

30 April 1907. be some change of opinion. But looking through the reports of this first

_ Conference, one finds even at that date most of the salient features of the

" Trade^'*^ discussion as it has since been developed, were already present to the minds

''M- 1) ■ k' ") °'" those "who assembled here. The question of foreign bounties and how

^ ' ' ' they should be met — whether by retaliation or otherwise — was dealt with.

Sir Samuel Griffith, then Premier of Queensland, submitted an express

proposition for the granting of preferential trade, which will be found on

page 4G2 of the same book. He said : " The question that 1 should like to

submit for consideration to-day is whether that conclusion ought not to be
" carried further, whether it should not be recognised as part of the duty of

the governing bodies of the Empire to see that their own subjects have a

preference over foreign subjects in matters of trade." Lower down on the
same page he said : "I am not going to venture into the deep waters of
" Free Trade and Protection ; but I maintain that buying in the cheapest

market is not the greatest consideration in the world — that after all
" that or any other system of fiscal policy can only be adopted as a

means to an end, the end being the prosperity of the country
" to which we belong." Omitting a sentence: "If that can be best
" done by buying in the cheapest market, and insisting that that

shall be done, by all means be it so. But if buying in some other
" than the cheapest market would conduce more to the prosperity of the
" Empire, then, as in all other matters, individual liberty nmst yield to
" the general good of the whole commimity. All government, I suppose,
■' consists in a surrender of individual liberty in some particulars for the

benefit of the whole community. I am not sanguine enough to suppose
" that anything is likely to be done just now ; nor do I suggest any inter-
" ference in the least degree Avith the tariffs of any countries, or that it should
" be insisted that any country should impose a customs charge for any goods

if it does not choose to do so. But I submit for consideration this proposi-
" tion ; That if any member of the Empire thinks fit for any reason to impose
" Customs charges upon goods imported from abroad, it shoidd be recognised
" that goods coming from British possessions should be subject to a lighter
" duty than those coming fi'om foreign possessions ; or to put it in, I think,
" a preferable way, that the duty on goods imported from abroad being fixed
" according to the convenience of the country, according to the wishes of its
" legislature, as to which there should be perfect freedom, with which I would
" not in the least interfere, a higher duty should be imposed upon the same
" kind of goods coming from foreign countries." I have read rather more than
I intended, but a portion of the speech shows that even at that date the idea
embodied in jDroposals for preferential trade was quite clearly recognised by
this most capal)le Australian statesman.

Then it is notable, too, that in the course of the debate a Victorian
statesman, perhaps known by name to most present, the Hon. James Service,
who was during the whole of his career an ardent Free Trader, and to whom
this proposition appeared then to be suggested almost for the first time,
after remarking that he was a Free Trader, said at page 471 : " If
this question were to be raised now as a Free Trade and Protection
" question, I would not take anj'- part in the discussion, because I am not
" prepared to open up that whole question. I am not, however, one of
" those Free Traders who believe in Free Trade as a fetish to be worn as a
" mere phrase round our necks, and who regard it as always indicative
" of precisely the same condition of tilings that it was indicative of in the
" Cobdeu period, or hold that circumstances might never arise of an
" Imperial character which might demand a revision of our jpolicy upon
" that sulijcct." Generally, I tliink, I may say that was the attitude of the
majority of the speakers on that occasion. At all events I find myself

231

reported as having said of preferential trade, " this is one of the best Eiphth Day.
" and one of the few means of drawing closer the bonds of unity, 3o April iy07.

" and increasing, as Sir Samuel GrilRth phrased it very properly,

"the solidarity of the Empire." I went on to add: "But it is 'tka[;"e!"*^

" not for the Colonies to urge the adoption of this proposal as one .,, ^ ,". ,

" which would be a benefit to them. It is really an Imperial matter, and

" until the head and heart of the Empire here " — meaning London,

Britain — " become animated by the same feeling, and become convinced

" that this is a good means to adopt, our voices must be futile, the expression

" of our views may be considered premature." I simply placed it on

record that, so far as we were concerned, we favoured " an Imperial tariff

" which Avoiald not only demonstrate the imity of the Empire, but assist

" to make it a potent reality." So even in 1887 we were face to face with

the question which still confronts us to-day.

The next Conference, which met in 1894, in Canada, at Ottawa," and
which was referred to by one of the Canadian Ministers present as a " Trade
Conference," took this question into very special consideration. Two
resolutions were carried, either then or in 1897, the first recommending the
denunciation at the earliest convenient time of any treaties Avhich now
hamper the commercial relations between Great Britain and her Colonies.
That resolution was carried unanimously. The next was that in the hope of
improving the trade relations lietween the Mother Countiy and the Colonies,
the Premiers present should undertake to confer with their colleagues with
a view to seeing whether such a result could be properly secured by a
preference given by the Colonies for the protection of the United .Kingdom.

Perhaps, as I have not the papers at hand, I may l)e pardoned for
alluding here to a fellow proposal of a distinctive character which was made
on the first occasion in 1887 by an exceedingly able representative from
the Cape, Mr. Hofmeyr. He proposed, not nmtual tariff concessions as
between the Mother Country and the Self-governing Dominions, but — I think,
for the first time, so far as I am aware — an addition of some small percentage
(T think he suggested 2 per cent.) to every tariff' of the Empire, either in the
Mother Country or elsewhere, so as not to affect in the slightest degree the
complete freedom of each portion of the Empire in framing its own tariff",
Protectionist or Free Trade. He sought to make that levy upon foreign
goods on entering the Empire, the sum derived to be devoted to Imperial
purposes, partly to defence. Naval Defence in particular, and partly to assisting
trade and commercial development. I do not wish to detain this Conference,
and therefore hurriedly abbreviate from memory Mr. Hofmeyr's proposal,
which lie supported in a most striking and able speech. He attended, though
in ill-health, the Canadian Conference of 1 SO 1, when he again alluded to the
proposals which he had previously suljmitted, but I do not appear to have a
reference to the page. We are very much indebted to Lord Elgin for the
mass of material which he has placed at our disposal. 1 only wish it had
been within my power to reail, mark, learn, and inwardly digest it before
we resumed these discussions. But the pressure upon us is such that even
in making a note of this reference to Mr. Hofmeyr, I have evidently
mis-stated the page. Now I have the papers. In 1894 the resolution was
passed for reciprocity betwe(>n the different Colonies and the Mother (\Miiiti-y,
and also between each otlier ; and another resolution in which they asked
for a denunciation of treaties. There were treaties at that time proposed
between New Zealand and Canada, and New Zealand and South Australia,
to which, however, no effect was given ; but the making of such tn^aties
was deliberately encouraged. Then it was that Mr. Hofmeyr, referring to
his former proposal, expressed his delibei-atc judgment to this effect —
without waiting to find the reference in order to quote the exact
words tliat it was higldy necessary for the stability of the Emjiire and

• See [C. 7553].
P 4

232

Eighth Day. almost for its existence that a customs alliance of some kind should be
30 April 1307. established ; that if it were not established the Self-governing Dominions

might be expected to turn to other Powers and possibly to enter into

Prefekential treaties with them which he thought would have an injurious effect. That
Trade. seems mucli neai'er to-day. He considered by anticipation the question of

(Mr. Deakm.) i]jq effect upon food j)roducts of his proposal, and, as I remember, thought
that any increased cost of a reasonable duty upon food products other than
those from within the Empire which were brought into the United Kingdom,
would be slight and of short duration. He entertained a strong hope and
expectation that his proposal would be adopted. I do not wish to dwell
further upon this side issue, except to say that if Mr. Hofmeyr's speeches in
1887 and in 1894 at Ottawa be taken together, they form a very notable
contribution to the discussion of this question from another point of view,
though an allied point of view, to that which is touched upon in the Resolu-
tion that the Commonwealth has submitted. They seem so important that I
venture to interject them here, becaixse of the intimacy of their relation,
although they are not directly material to the proposals we have before
us. It was in 1897 at which the Resolutions, which I read as of 1894,
were passed, showing that at the third Conference Preference was still
a live question. Then in 1902 we have the resolutions which Sir Wilfrid
Laurier has read to lis this morning, and which, I am glad to hear, he
proposes to re-athrm.-'- At every Conference, therefore, this issue has been
raised in some form or another, with increasing force on each occasion and
with increasing definiteness. It would not, therefore, be quite consistent
with the course that has been followed by previous Conferences if this issue
were not dealt with, and I hope even more thoroughly, at this Conference.
For that, too, we have a special warrant. I find in a document, which
appears to be in a sense official, issued by the Lnperial Federation
(Defence) Committee, reporting very fully a deputation to the Prime
Minister of 1904, that Mr. Balfour, speaking as Prime Minister, in reply to
their request that the question of Naval Defence and Imperial Defence
generally should be pressed upon the coming Conference which was due
in 1906 — which is this Conference, postponed for a year — Avent on to
say: "As everybody is aware, the circumstance which forced iipon me
" at least the absolute necessity of calling such a Conference was the
" position in which we have been gradually brought by a controversy which
" has nothing immediately or directly to do with, though it is indirectly no
" doubt connected with, the subject which has brought you all here to-day " —
that is the subject of Defeuce. " I am not going to say a word upon that
controversy " — that was the Tariff Reform controversy. " There are gentle-
" men in this room, probably, holding very many different views upon the
" subject, and it would be quite out of place and quite improper for me to
" drag in the merits of that controversj'^ even in the most indirect manner.
" But I quite admit that though the question of closer commercial union with
" the Colonies, or though a discussion of the possibility of finding an
" arrangement for closer commercial union with the Colonies, may -be the
" occasion for the summoning of the Conference, it is impossible, and it
" would be improper, that any such Conference should be confined to that,
" or should be restricted from discussmg anything connected with the closer
" luiion of one part of the Empire with the other. It would, indeed, violate
" the very fundamental condition which I believe to be essential to the value
" of such a Conference — the condition, I mean, that it should meet with
" perfect fi-eedom, unhampered and unfettered." I quote that for the
purpose of sho^ving that the late Govermnent, which had in view the present
Conference, held that the discussion of the possibility' of finding an arrange-
ment for closer connnercial union with the Colonies was the occasion, or the
jDrime occasion, for the smnmoning of this very Conference.

• [Cd. 1299] p. 36.

233

In order to avoid enloring upon the iield of British politics, so far as it Eip;litli Day.
embraces proposals for Tariff Reform, I ch^sire to exclude its local relations 30 April 1907.

from my remarks as much as possible. We have, however, had addressed to

US in Australia, an appeal on this question, so unusual and (!manatinf:f from a 'xu^^'p^'^^

large number of representative Mendjers of the liritish Parliament, that one .^^ ' .'. .

feels under some obligation to refer to it. This was an appeal from Members '^' '" '"

of the Imperial Parliament to the electors of the Commonwealth of Australia.

It set out that in a few nionths they would Ije choosing representatives in a

Parliament of the Commonwealth, and that Fiscal Preference was one of the

questions to be submitted to them, 'iluuking this gravely affected them,

they addressed an appeal to our electors, taking the view that " there is

no offer within your power to make " — that is, within the Conunon wealth's

power — " that could compensate us for a tax upon our food." Again, they

speak of the possibility of working men being "endjittered by a sense of

the wrong done to them by a tax upon food." In conclusion, though it is

a short address, they protest in order that goodwill should be maintained

between us, thjxt " you should not encourage those among you who are

proposing to put a tax upon our food."

Mr. ASQUITH : What is the date of that ?

Mr. DEAKIN: June the 22nd, 190G. This appeal was made to the
electors of the Commonwealth of Australia, and those electors have given
their answer very decidedly. It was very much more in favour of Preference
than ever before — in favour of some degree or kind of Preference, though
doubtless dillering as to its extent. The result showed certainly a majority
of 3 to 1, and probably a larger majority. By way of comment upon their
plea, may I saj^ that we venture to hold their terminology rather inexact.
What is called a " tax " on food would be more appropriately referred to as a
duty ; and in our experience a duty is not a tax, of necessity ; it need not
raise prices. We have illustrations within our own country in which we
have imposed duties of a deliuilely protectionist character, which have not
had the effect of raising prices in our community. Of course, no statement
whatever can be made as to the effect of " duties " which would apply to all
of them, or even to many of them. They may be of any height or of any
character, apply to any part or totality of a product. There are duties some
of which would be no tax at all, some of which woidd impose a partial tax,
and some which might be wholly taxes. If I do not err, all the duties in
this country, with possibly an exception for cocoa and chocolate, which
have a slight protectionist flavour- with that single exception, so far as I
know — the duties in this country are imposed as taxes, so to speak ; that is,
with the sole purpose of raising revenue. We, on the contrary, impose duties
from mixed motives ; some purely to raise revenue ; others not only with the
object of raising revenue, but of giving a stimulus to local production ; others
to foster that production without any regard to the amount of revenue that
may accrue — these, of course, are levied in differing proportions. To take
the tariff' of the Commonwealth, or any other tariff, and analyse its duties,
would require a very elaborate scheme of classilication to discriminate
between the different effects which are either intended or achieved.

With that preliminary caution may I say that this reference to a tax on
food appears to us to be appropriate enough, considering its source, because
the phrase wa? evidently vised having regard to the British tariff. There
it is alleged that some 18,000,0O0L is levied directly, and I have seen
another estimate which said 5O,000,O00Z. indirectly, though I do not quite
xmderstand how that could be, upon food and food products,

Mr. ASQUITH: Mainly drink.

234
Eighth Day. Mr. BEAKIN : Does food include drink ?

30 April 1907.

p Mr. ASQUITH : It is a very simple matter. Our tariff consists, so far

Trade. ^^ these things are concerned, of a tax upon various forms of alcohol, tobacco,

sugar, and tea, with one or two small duties like those upon cocoa and dried
fruits, which hardly count, and practically that exhausts our tariff.

Mr. DEAKIN : I thought that physicians had settled the question
whether alcohol is a food or not.

Mr. ASQUITH : They are still disputing it.

Mr. DEAKIN : One further question which apjjears to be raised — and I
am entering into no academic discussion, — is, when a duty is a tax, who pays
that tax? I only refer to this because the subject appears to be dealt with
by a gentleman who, I understand, occupietl, and possibly still occupies, the
highest position in the orthodox sect of Free Traders. I think he was, if he
is not still, the Secretary of the Cobden Club — Mr. Harold Cox, M.P. In your
debates, which I had the opportunity of reading Avhile journeying here,
Mr. Cox's testimony on that subject is remarkably clear. He pointed out that
Canada had a substantial preferential tariff ; the duties paid on British goods
were 2,000,000L a year. That was 33 per cent, less than the duty which
would have lieen charged on the same goods if they had been foreign goods ;
if the goods had been foreign, the duties would have amounted to 3,00(),000L,
but, if he credited Canada with the 1,()00,000L she did not levy on our
goods, he must also credit her with the 2,000,000?. she did levy. We had,
therefore, in his opinion, practically to bear a burden of 2,000,0001. in order
to obtain a remission of 1,000,000?., which, he added, was hardly good
business. Mr. Cox is an authority, and when he says that the importing
British merchant had to bear the burden of the 2,000,000?. of duties, he
clearly asserts that the importer pays the whole of the tax — the whole of the
duty which he prefers to call a " tax."

Mr. ASQUITH : I do not so understand it, but I am not concerned in
defending Mr. Cox.

Mr. DEAKIN : It is very hard to put any other meaning upon it. He
said we had practically to bear a burden of 2,000,000?. — " we " being the
merchants of Great Britain — those who exported from Great Britain for the
purpose of importing into Canada. If they bear the burden of 2,000,000?. he
does not suggest, I suppose, that the Canadian people bear another 2,000,000?.
over again. That does seem to me quite a hopeful light thrown upon the
burden of duties borne by the foreigner.

The reference that was made at the conclusion of the Parliamentary
appeal to the preservation of goodwill, is one to Avhich there was and always
will he an instantaneous response. There can be no j)Ossible peril to goodwill
in this matter. There may be a strong difference of opinion as to the best
means of giving effect to that goodAvill, but certainly the sentiment would
not be diminished by the particular character of that opinion. We argue
something in this way : All trade, speaking broadly, exists for mutual jDrofit,
and is based upon mutual profit. Just as every individual who engages in it
desires to have the largest trade possible, so does every nation; Nations,
like individuals, live by their labour, their production, and their exchange.
This is so true that not only are there wars in fact which are called
" commercial wars," but trade is always sought for by aggressive means

235

and sometimes fought for with the sword in order that it may be acquired Eifrhth Day.

or retained. What wc suggest is a trade in preferences, in trade advantages 30 April 1907.

which should be conceded to each other, on the usual principle of trade,

that it shall be to the l)(>nefit of both parties concerned. So far as I am ^pJi'^^.r"'^^

aware no one has yet fathered, or is likely to father, any such proposition „ n • W i )

as that this matter of business is to be dealt with to the advantage of one of ^ ' '' '
the paities only. There is not any business of that character, or which is
assumed to be of that character. It must yield mutual advantage, and of
the value of that advantage each party must be the judge.

Mr. ASQUITH : I entirely assent to that proposition, if I may say so.
It admirably states the case.

Mr. DEAKIN : That is why the goodwill cannot he disturbed. It must
always be admitted that each of the i>arties to the bargain must be the best
judge of its own gain. We may have a strong and clear opinion as to how
the other bargainer should proceed, in his own interest, but after all that is
his affair. W(! may regret that we cannot do the l)usiuess. but necessarily we
must in eveiy case bow to his decision. So in the present instance it appears
to us to be possible for each to impose duties on a certain scale — putting
aside the advantage which may Ijc gained from those duties —granting each
other preferences under them without loss or risk of loss.

The question, as it seems to me, which foreign nations will then put to
themselves is not whether duties have been imposeil for this particular
purpose by Gi'eat Britain or by Great Britain and all her Dominions together.
What the foreign exporter seeks is the best market ; the market where he
gets the best price, the biggest market. The position of the United Kingdom
appears to us to be so unique, that it not only is to-day the l)est market for
all the world, but may easily continue to be still the best market for all the
world outside its own Dominions, even if preferences were conceded to
those Dominiojis when their goods were entering its ports. That, again,
is a business question. If the foreign producer can still sell in your market
at a profit, even thougli it be a smaller profit than now, so long as it is
a profit he will be induced to continue his trade. If, as is probably the case,
even with any duty which you would impose, Great Britain still remained
absolutely the best market in the world to him, the fact that it was not
as good as it had been would not operate. Markets vary everywhere, owing
to circumstances too many even to indicate. Merchants are accustomed to
sell, sometimes in good, and sometimes in indifferent, markets, and it does
appear to us from our point of view that we are not suggesting anything
unreasonable in the proposals we make even in respect of food stuffs and
raw materials, both of which we quite admit should be most carefully
scrutinised before they could be dealt with. The special circumstances of
this country seem to us to offer a margin in which both of those could be
dealt with, and effectively dealt with to our great gain, yet without altering the
place which the United Kingdom occupies to-day as probably the best market
for them in the world.

It is not for us to i:)ropose a new or criticise your present fiscal policy,
but we may remark that consideration for your own British industries might
lead to duties being levied, the object of which would l)e either to revive those
industries wliicli had suffered or were suffering, or to expand those already
existing. That involves another set of principles altogether, and I slioidd be
distinctly departing from the rule laid down for myself if I entered upon any
iliscussion of the merits or demerits of local protection. It ought to be clearly
understood that my reason for mentioning it is this : that when the outer
Dominions suggest a preference they not only believe that you should have
that opportunity of profit, but also that in considering any proposal for

236

Eighth Day. preference to tliem, the first obligation upon every British Parliament is to

30 April 1907. consider its own citizens, its own indnstries, and its own advantage first.
So far as you might think it right to exclude us and everyone else from your

Preferential ^-^^j^ markets in order to maintain, or I'etain, or extend any kind of production
or interest of your own, it would be impossible for us to raise one word of

(Mr. ea -in.) complaint. That is entirely a matter for the discretion of the people and the
Parliament of Clreat Britain. May I be forgiven for even mentioning this
truism, because it occasionally is inferred that the attitude we adopt is
of another character — that we are looking for same sort of eleemosynary
aid which is to be given in consideration of our youth and inexperience.
We may be youthful, but in this matter we are fairly experienced. In
our own tariffs we distinctly study our o^vn interests, and hold that the
same duty rests as seriously upon the Government and representatives
of the people of this country as it does upon us. We approach this question
of preference with that preliminary admission, it ought not to be necessary to
mention it, that of coi;rse our proposal is made, admitting that, first of all, you
should consider your owai industries, your own production, and youj own
people, and impose whatever duties you think fit in regard to ihevaJJ Only
after that should you undertake to go further and enter upon the question of
preference, when you see it to be to your advantage so to do. I use the word
"advantage" in that last connection, as going, perhaps, beyond pounds,
shillings, and pence, either in the matter of revenue received or preference
conceded. If the result of granting a j)reference is, for instance, to largely
build up the Dominions beyond the Seas, it should be remembered that
they were, are, and are likely to remain the best customers of this country.
Consequently you have a direct trade interest in multiplying their population
and increasing their consuming powder by means of preferences.

The question of preference comes in only after yoii have considered
your own interests, your own social system, your own financial system,
your own industrial system, and whatever else yovi think fit to take into
account. On this matter we have no dogmas ; our own method is to study
each industry and its needs, or each kind of production, by itself in a business
light, and to see how far it is likely to pay the country to foster it or to
ignore it. Just in ^he degree that we deem it to be a good Ijusiness pro-
position, we undertake without fear the experiment of fiscally assisting it.
If it appears to us an imattractive business proposition, we let it alone. We
are bound by no shibboleths ; we simply, to the best of our aljility, deal
with our duties as a merchant deals with his own business in his own interest.
Preference for Preference Ave hope and believe woxdd be profitable to both.
We have the strongest reasons, we think, for believing it ; at all events, we
are satisfied that it could be made profitable to us.

There is one illustration of the method we ourselves attempt to apply,
which appears to us to be practical. It is in a Blue Book published in 1904,
headed "East India Tariff's; Views of the Government of India on the
cpiestion of Preferential Tariff's." To that is annexed a general report as to
which I have nothing to say, as it relates to India. I find Enclcisurc No. 1 is
a minute of Sir Edward Law, K.C.M.G., C.S.I., Financial Member of the
Council of the Viceroy and Governor-General of India, dated 31&t August
1903. What is valuable is the manner in which the relation of India to
each country is treated. It is handled precisely as we endeavour to handle
each proposal for a new customs duty — either its increase or its decrease —
but liere it is treated in relation to the possil)ilities of retaliation. Each
country that trades with India is taken separately ; the quantum of the trade
is given ; the suliject matter of that trade defined ; its value to the customer
country is considered ; and the trade from India to that coimtry is also passed
in review. That memorandum exhibits exactly the method in v/hich in the
Conunonwoallh we endeavour to approach any such proposals. Sir Edward

237

Law complains of the deficiency of his materials, and speaks tentatively just Eighth Day.
as one Avould do undrr the circumstances, Init Avhat is pertinent in this 30 April 1907.

particular connection is his study of export and import trade and its character

and possibilities on both sides. That represents a business-like way of I'i'ekei'en'tiai,
disposing of questions of this kind, exhaustive having regard to the materials "'^^'^■.

at hand, so that I have taken the opportunity of quoting it as a l)etter ^ '""■'

illustration than any statement of the way in which we try to handle such
matters.

Before closing this argument, may I say that a good deal appears to
us to depend upon what jo\i make the unit of your consideration. I have
already achnitted that the British t;iri(T should be dealt with, taking the
United Kingdom as the unit first, and that the other units should come
afterwards. At the same time, those other units together with the United
Kingdom make up what we speak of as the British Empire. The view
that has very strongly pressed us in relation to all these questions of the
tariff and a great variety of other questions, especially such as we have
been considering at this Conference, is the future of the larger unit, the
Empire as a whole. After the United Kingdom has studied its individual
interests ; after Canada, and the Commonwealth, and South Africa, have
studied their individual interests within themselves, and in their dealings
with each other, necessarily the greater question presents itself as to the mutual
possibilities which those units possess to-day. Their fortunes are bound up
together, tlieir trade and commerce are mostly with each other. You come
then to the next stage of the question which is quite separate from the first,
because you have a great political motive for inquiring how far it is possible
for these units to assist each other by interchange. That interc-hauge
must be mutually profitable in itself, and even if it were onlj^ slightly
profitable might become of immense importance as a factor in the interests
of the group of units of the Empire considered as a whole. Whatever the
possibilities of trade may be between us, and they appear to our minds to be
considerable, we are never blind to the fact that closer relations of this
kind might play a most important part in waj's too nimierous to mention
not only in bringing us together, but in keeping us together and making us
stronger by union for national business bargains. Certainly we should then
become better eqitipped for making those bargains Avhich nations from time
to time enter into in order to preserve the peace of the world. We proceed
on the supposition, which is nmch more than a supposition to us, that it is
possible in this way to strengthen the Empire as a whole, and this becomes
one of the strongest motives we have for looking hopefully to movements
of this kind, even while we recognise that they have to begin as business
operations, and cannot succeed if they are conducted, or sought to bo
conducted, in breach of business principles.

So far as I can speak for the people of Australia, tliis motive — speaking
of them as a whole — counts for as much as an}' promise of direct material
advantage to themselves, if you can speak of direct material advanlagi; to
us, apart from that of the whole Empire. Personally, I do not think j-ou
can. United as we are, the Ijcncfit of one must Iw a benefit to all, and, of
course, the benefit of two is better than the benefit of one, and so on. But,
for the moment, speaking as if the interests could be severed, I believe a
motive qtiitc as strong and probably stronger- than that of tlic money gain
or advantage of this trade, influences the bulk of the people of Australia,
through tlie idea of having more intimate relations with their own
countrymen antl being more united with them in peace as well as in war.
They look to the operation of traile and to its great agencies, particularly
the shipping of the Empire, to uphold the proud position which it occupies
to-day. Lord Tweedmouth, -when he was with us, mentioned some very
striking figures on that point. Not the least by any means of the

238

A -I iq^7 advantages of the increase of trade within the Empire is an increase in-

^^'' ■ the strength of the mercantile marine with its general relation to naval

Peeferential supremacy, and also in itself a great means of employment and source

Trade. of national strength. Anything that multiplies the shipping of the Empire,

(Mr. Deakin.) any devices that increase its cable commimi cations and postal facilities are

all extremely valuable means of unity to be sought in themselves quite

apart from preferential trade, but where preferential trade helps them, it

is another argaunent for preferential trade to whatever extent it encourages

them. Ships and cables, and raj)id regular frequent communication in all

forms appeal very strongly to the people of Australia, perhaps' because they

are, with New Zealand, the most remote outposts. We look forward with

hope to increasing every means of inter-Imperial alliances in association with

trade, and also indej)endently of it by other and more direct means.

In the Australian attitude on this question, and I believe the attitude to be
the same in all the other Dominions, these really are very considerable motives.
Our people and the thoughtful all the world over recognise the immense
advantage of the support they gain fi'oni each other as parts of this Empire.
They cherish that union and desire to possess even stronger ties than exist
at present. They realise that the modern world is fall of critical occasions,
especially for a great world power with enterprising rivals, and are very
anxious that any means of making the Empire more distinctly seK-dependent
both in peace and war, should also be sought and used with a view to
jjossible emergencies. So, from quite a variety of what you might consider
at first sight outside considerations, they are powerfully drawn towards the
proposal which is roughly embodied in the resolutions now sidjmitted
to the Conference. Peace, education, progress, our independence, and the
maintenance of our social conditions, are all bound up with the capacity of
the empire to hold its own even against hostilities. Years ago I had occasion
to point out to those with whom I am associated in the Commonwealth,
that we owed our opportunities and possibilities to the shelter of the
position which we enjoyed under the flag, and to remind them that what we
prize in the way of liberties, institutions, opportiinities, racial relations,
and power depended upon the maintenance of this Empire and its strong
arm. Many of them share that view. That is the deepest self-interest we
have in union — an interest which we share in common with you. The
possibilities of the severance of this Empire, of its defeat and destruction, are
too painful to contemplate, and, thank Heaven ! in no prospect that we can see.
But the mere suggestioii of them and their possibilities makes us turn with
even more intense anxiety towards every opportunity, small or large, which
we can find for preparing ourselves against a day of trial and for securing
what we hold dearer x^erhaps than life. To us it appears that henceforth the
individual will become more and more dependent upon the social and national
structure in which he finds a place. It makes all the difference whether yoii
are grains of sand or the same grains compacted into solid rock. Anything
that encourages the development of Imperial organisation, which, Avithout
limiting the self-governing powers of the several parts, or unduly trespassing
on the individual liberty of the citizen, shall compact them together in
co-operative relations for the discharge of social duties, political obligations,
and industrial efforts — every possible increase of that co-operation — marks
a higher stage in civilisation, giving greater opportunities to the individual
and greater strength to the nation to which he belongs. That is a political
gospel. The nation and the individual act and ro-act upon each other, and
in the liritisli I'^mpire we think we see the greatest future at present open
to any people for that inter-action affording the fullest free play to individual
energy and (enterprise, and at the same time by willing consent uniting its
peoples togi'ther for their i^reat connnon ends of one national destiny.

239

Coming down from gpnoral consirlorations to the proposals omborlied in Eifrlnli Hay.
this Kesohition, while the motives l)y which we are attracted are ot: that 30 April 1907.
general nature, they are supported by reasons of a much more precise 7

character. I see to-day in one of your leading newspapers, an article Trade.

by Mr. John Holt Schooling, a well-known writer, whose diagrams elucidate ^j^ Di-akin.)
so manj" problems. He furnish(>s several tables, one relating to India, which
are devised on a new plan of taking .yearly averages during each decade.
The general result of his examination of the Indian figures is that tlicy
show a continuous fall of imports from the United Kingdom as compared
with imports froni all countries. Then we come to the Australian Counuon-
wealth, and commencing with the year 1880, when the imports from the
United Kingdom were 72 ' 7 per cent, of the imports from all the countries
into the Connnonwealth, he shows their steady decline down to lOOf), when th(^
percentage of proportion had fallen to CI ''} p(!r cent. This he tcMMus a large
and continuoiis fall. Of course, this table does not include our inter-State
trade.

Mr. ASQUITH : What do you say the figures are now ?

Mr. DEAKIN: For 190.'') he gives the imports from the United Kingdom
as 61 • 3 per cent, of the total imports from all countries. He does not take
190C.

Mr. ASQUITH : I think all the figures are not out yet.

Mr. DEAKIN: I have, I think, the 1000 figures with me. He summarises
It ill this fashion : " What has been the course of trade during 1880-1905?
" Australia's purchases from all countries have risen, and Australia's purchases
" from the United Kingdom have fallen. Tlu> latter were 24 • 3 million pounds
" yearly during the first decadf>, and 22 ' 4 million pounds yearly during the
" last decade. These two opposite courses of trade produce in combination
" the result disclosed in the last column of Table II. A large and c-outinuous
" fall has occurred in the United Kingdom's share of Australian markets.
" For example, during the first decade our share was 72 " 7/. per 100/. of
" Australia's purchases. But during the last decade our share had fallen to
" 61 • 3Z. per 100/. And the fall was continuous. Not only are we making
" less advance in foreign markets than is made liy our trade rivals, but also
" we are losing our place as a seller in the market of Ih-itish Colonies. One
" of the causes of this loss of position by us in foreign markets and in the
" markets of British Colonies is the fact that we give to each of our rivals a
" great trade advantage. We give to our rivals a fi-ee market of 43,000,000
" persons in the United Kingdom, to add to their own free market in their
" own country. For example, the United States possess an open market of
" 82,000,000 persons in the United States, plus an open market of 43,000,00(1
" persons in the United Kingdom— total, 125,000,000. But the United
" Kingdom possesses an open market of 43,000,000 in the United Kingdom,
" which, moreover, is considerably interfered with l)y the foreign goods we
" buy." His third table deals with Canada, and shows in the same way a
large and continuous fall. The ft)urth table deals with the Straits Settle-
ments, with a similar result, and the last table deals with the Cape of Good
Hope, also showing a large fall.

240
Eighth Day. Mr. ASQUITH : VVJiat do you mean by a large Ml r

30 April 1907.

Preferential

Trade, Mr. DEAKIN : In percentage.

Mr. ASQUITH : A large fall in the aggregate, or a large fall in propor-
tion to the whole ?

Mr. DEAKIN : In proportion to the whole. For instance, the percentage
in Cape Colony dropped from 80 "3 in 1880, in 65 "4 last year. It is in
its proportions that he is measuring it.

Then, looking a little more closely at the coiirse of British and Australian
trade, I find that the greater part of the goods that Australia purchases
abroad are still obtained in Great Britain, and to that country a large propor-
tion of Australian produce is exported. But thoiigh British superiority as
the chief market for Australian trade is maintained, the extent of that
superiority has distinctly diminished. Take the official figures of the
development of British trade from 1860 onwards : they represent the average
annual importations into Australia from Great Britain in each decennial
period of goods of British or Irish origin. The figures are, for the period
1860-69, omitting odd figures, 12,400,000?. ; 1870-70, 14,400,000?. ; 1880-89,
21,700,000/. ; 1890-99, 18,400,000/. ; and 1900-05, a quinquennial period,
20,800,000?.

Mr. ASQUITH : Those are British imports into Australia.

Mr. DEAKIN : The average annual imports into Australia from Great
Britain, during that decennial period, show that increase, which has then to
be measured with the general increase of our trade. It has been urged
that an important influence affecting British trade is the loss of the direct
carriage of goods produced in the continent of Europe, which formerly
were sent to Australia by way of England. Mr. Schooling did not deal
with this, but took the imports in gross, that is to say, he took all
those as English which came from England, and the balance as
foreign. It is impossible (hiring the earlier years above referred to,
to distinguish directly from the trade statistics, either of Australia or of
the United Kingdom, the amount of foreign goods imported into Australia
by way of England. But though the total of all goods not of British
origin is not known, yet a competent Australian authority has been able to
make for me a close dissection of the returns, with the results shown in the
following table. From this, it will be seen that there has been little change in
the volume of foreign exports to Australia coming by way of England during
the last 20 years. Look at the average annual imports into Australia from
foreign countries, distinguishing the value of goods coming direct or by way
of England ; in 1860-69 the direct importations were 3,200,000?. ; imported
by way of England, 700,000?.- total, 4,000,000?. ; in 1870-79, direct impor-
tations w(,'re 2,800,000?. ; imported by Avay of England, 1,140,000?. — total,
4,0(J0,000?. ; in 1880-89, direct importations, 4,900,000?. ; imported by way
of England, 2,00(),()()0?.- total, 6,900,000?. ; in 1890-99, direct importations,
5,900,n()0?. ; imported by way of England, ] ,500,000?.— total, 7,500,000?.;
and in 1904-05, direct importations, 11,300,000?.; imported by way of

241

Englaud, 2,1()0,0()0/.- total 13,7t)(J,OUO?. Having put tliesu luu general Eighth Day.
sets of ligures before you, let us now uotc the respective positions 30 Apiil l!);)7.

which Britain antl foreign countries hold in the Australian marivct. The

changes that have taken place daring the last 40 years disclose this: I'kkkkhentia!.
the average annual import into Australia in the decennial periods, Ix-ginning uadl

in 1860 and ending in 1905, that last period being live years only, C^''- L"^^"'^'")
was, for the first period, from the United Kingtlom, 12,100,000^ ; foreign
countries, 4,000,000/. ; the next period (1870-79), from the United Kingdom,
14,400,0001; foreign countries, 4,000,()OOL ; the next period (1880-89),
from the United Kingdom, 21,700,000/.; foreign countries, G,90(),(,)00/ ; the
next decennial period (1890-99), from the United Kingdom, 18,400,000/. ;
foreign countries, 7,500,000/. ; and the last quinquennial period (1900-05),
from the United Kingdom, 20,800,000/.; foreign countries. in,700,000/.
Putting it in another way, if the trade of the United Kingdom l)e repre-
sented by 100, then the foreign imports into Australia for those periods arc
represented by 32, 28, .'->2, 41, and 06 respectively, showing a verj' remarkable
growth in the latter period.

Mr. LLOYD GEOIJGE : You have not the exports to foreign
countries ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Not in this. They, too, show an increase.

Mr. ASQUITII : Foreign countries have been buying your goods and
paying for them by selling their goods to you.

Mr. DEAKIN : Buying more wool. Formerly you took nearly
all our wool, but now foreign nations take a share. Those ligures
show that a change is taking place in the character of Austi-aliau
imports, and what that change is. The most important developments in
the foreign ti-ade of our country have been those manifested tluring
the last 20 years of that period. If we use qTiinquennial instead of
decennial periods the returns of the Statistician's Ofhce in Syiluey which have
been generally relied upon in local discussions show that in 1881-85
the imports from the United Kingdom represented a value of 24,J()0,( )()()/. as
compared with 6,800,000/. from foreign countries, the latter being 28 per
cent, of the former ; in 1901-05 the respective values were 20,400,000/. and
13,800,00t)/., the imports of Australia from foreign countries being, therefoi-e,
67 ■ 5 per cent, of the imports from the United Kingdom. Put that another
way. While British exports to Australia fell away during the 20 years to the
extent of 4,000,000/., foreign exports were increased by 7,0(111,000/. Here let
me guard against a misapprehension. The develo]>ment of Australian
industries, to which in some quarters this great slnfting of our purchases has
been attriluited, cannot be pleaded as a suflieieut cause for the decline of
the British-Australian trade, because, as the iigures just citetl show, however
local production may have grown, and whatever other influence it may have
had upon our growth there has been a sul)stantial increase in the cond)ined
British and foreign imports into Australia during the past 20 years. It is not
necessary for the purpose of this argnunent to trace in detail the classes of
British goods that are being replaced by foreign-made goods, Imt, speaking
generally, and taking the year 1885 as the point of conqjarison, the trade returns
show substantial losses of British trade are caused by foreign gains in haber-
dashery and apparel, cement, earthen and china ware, cabinet ami ujiholstcry
ware, glass manufactures, hardware and cutlery, wrought and un\vrou{;lit
leather, paper, silk numufacturcs, some classes of woollens, and many other
articles of minor importance. The character of the losses of British exj^orts is

E 48668. Q

242

Eighth Day. plain — they lie in mauufactiired goods and iu classes of those goods in which
30 April 1907. our local manufacturers are not conspicuous.

i REB'ERF'NTI AL

Trade. Mr. ASQUITH : Which are the classes of your own local or native

(Mr. Deakiu.) manufacturers which you have shown in this development — wool ?

Mr. DEAKIN : We do not reckon wool as a manufacture, except as
woollen cloth.

Mr. ASQUITH : Yes. I meant yarn or cloth.

Mr. DEAKIN : Speaking from memory, there has been a growth, but
not a large or rapid growth, of wooUen manufacture. There may be some
increase in the making of aj)parel.

Mr. ASQUITH : Boots and shoes ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, some increase, but none, I think, in cabinet or
upholstery ware worth mentioning, nor in glass, hardware, and cutlery
(cutlery we do not manufacture^, nor in paper or silk manufactures.

Mv. ASQUITH : I suppose you have practically no cutleiy manu-
factures ?

Mr. DEAKIN : None. Our manufactures are still in their infancy.

To interpret these facts aright, one or two possible explanations suggested
must Ije disposed of. The expansion of the foreigTi at the expense of the
British trade with Australia is not due to anj^ superior quality or cheapness
of the foreign-made article. England can manufacture most descriptions
of exportable goods as cheaply as can any foreign countr}^, and there need be
no increase of general prices to the Australian consmner, had the Motlier
Country a larger share of the Australian import trade. Of course, some
portion of British loss of trade, has, undoubtedly, arisen from the conserva-
tiveness of British methods, but the extent of the loss thus arising has been
greatly overrated. The present position of British trade in Australia is
ahnost wholly due to the settled policy adopted by most foreign countries,
of reserving their home markets for their own produce, and reserving their
' competition for other, especially British markets, for by this policy they

are enabled, step by step, to oust Great Britain from the trade of her
possessions.

Something must be said of the manner in which foreign trade is
conducted, for this is detrimental to the interests of all the producing
States that receive their goods. It has been amply demonstrated that the
practice of " Dumping," or the placing of large quantities of produce below
cost price, tends to destroy established industries in the countries receiving
the dumped goods. This practice is at times largely employed by foreign
manufacturers to injure British trade, not only in Australia biit everywhere.
Great Britain gets nothing in return lor her gift of her markets from her
rivals. She makes them a present of it, and, so far as I have obsei"ved, does
not even secure their friendship in return.

Mr. ASQUITH : Can you give me any case of dumping iu Australia on
a substantial scale ?

243

Mr. DEAKIN : Wc have, of course, a fjood deal of what you may call Eifiliil) D«v.
casual or irregular dumping of cheap shijiloads. Those I do not dwell ni:>ou. 3o April 1907.
The chief danger that we had to cope with lately was with regard to
agricultural implements, which, from information received, were manu- '"^TuAnr^'*^
faetureil in the United States. Wc had reason to believe that these
were being brought in with the intention of being sold xmder cost in order
to cripple and destroy the local manufacture. We have dealt with that
in a very drastic fashion by an Act which will enable us to cope with the
great Trust that is understood to be behind this operation. That is the most
conspicuous case recently.

Mr. ASQUITH : Were not they let in free under your tariff ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Not harvesters, strippers, and l)inders to which I am
referring now, and w'hich were dealt with under a particidar law passed last
session.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : What is the tariff on those ?

Mr. DEAKIN : It was 12i- per cent, on the value, but now we have a
fixed duty of 121. each machine.

Mr. ASQUITH : When did that happen ?

Mr. DEAKIN : Last year. Foreign manufacturers are al)]e to attack
our market by having behind them the security of their own market with
fi'ce access to British markets, and by reason of llie conipuralive lightness
of the Australian tariff to invade Australian markets also.

Glancing for a moment at another aspect, may I notice in passing, the
extent to which foreign countries have prevented the natural increase of
British trade. In the ten years 1895-1905 British exports to British possess-
sions, including Aiistralia, increased from 91 to 134 millions, while the
exports of foreign countries increased from 51 to 103 millions. Taking goods,
the produce and manufacture of Great Britain, the export to British posses-
sions in 1905 was 113 millions, or only 10 millions in excess of the exports of its
foreign competitors. Indeed, if India be omitted from consideration, the
foreign imports into British Colonies exceed in value those of Ib-itish origin.
Now this great change has not been brought about by ordinary- connnercial
methods. The gradual exclusion of Great Britain and her possessions from
foreign markets is, of course, deliberate, intentional, and consistent. Not
onlj' do foreign countries, for the most part, reserve their home market to
themselves, as far as it has been practicable and politic for them to do so, but
by sulisidies, bounties, and trade regulations, they stimulate their own exports,
and materially restrict those of their rivals. 1 can only follow this part of the
subject a short distance, but it is a very important part, though the m(\ins used
arc much more than fiscal. The point which c'annot l)e overlooked, and must
he kept constantly in mind, is that our trade is affected very largely, and will
be injured in future b\' the aggressive policy adopted l)y foreign countries.
Australia, as a producing nation, would be vastly benetiteil if it could send its
goods everywhere on fair terms ; but our commercial rivals exclude us with
impunity from great areas which do not produce naturally the goods which Ave
could send them if these restrictions were removed. It is not possil)le, for
example, to send anything to German Colonies, for not only does their Govern-
ment subsidise its ships to cany produi'(> cheaply (the sum of 350,000/. a year
being spent in shipping bounties), but in German Colonies (ierman goods are
eillier exempt fi-om customs duti(>s entirely, or are taxed at a low sealcN while

Q a "

Preferextial
Trade.

(Mr. Deakiu.)

244

EigUth Ds.y. other goods have to pay high import duties. This is Preference carried to
30 April 1907. an extreme. It has the full effect intended by its authors of restricting
German Colonies to German commerce. But, beyond this, both on their home
Trade^^^'^ and colonial railways, German goods intended for export are carried at
almost nominal rates.

France adopts a somewhat similar position. The laws regulating the
commerce of that country with her Colonies and Dependencies are so framed
us to discriminate largely in favour of French products and French shipping.
Some little time ago an endeavour was made to open a market for Australian
produce in France ; it was then found that butter coming from 'Australia was
subject to more than twice the duty imposed on the produce of the United
States, Denmark, Belgium, and other countries, the produce of these States
being in turn subject to a considerable impost. In fact, the French market
was practically and designedly shut to our produce. Nor do our disabilities
end with duties on manufactured goods, for though few countries deliberately
put duties on raw material of manufactures, yet America levies over
50 per cent, on Australian wool, and this practically closes the American
market to the chief Australian staple. It is needless to recapitulate the
various difficulties which the Australian exporter has to contend with in all
other countries than Great Britain, especially while the Mother Country
herself will not discriminate between us. The only articles which foreign
countries seem willing to take are raw materials absolutely necessary for their
own manufactures. This is a subject which, from the British point of
view alone, might be pressed very far. Of course, that is not my business.
We have to face the facts as we tind them, dealing so far as we can with
political attacks upon trade by a political defence of trade, and undertaking
any reprisals which may be necessary to that end.

On all sides the export trade of Australia is blocked by ever increasing
barriers erected by foreign co^mtries. Europe ought to be an excellent
market lor Australian mutton and ])eef, as many European workpeople hardly
ever have meat to eat — or do not regularly have meat to eat— yet we have
practically no trade of this kind whatever with any European country except
England. Nearly every European Government has erected, in the interests
of its agrarian population, restrictions either by way of customs duties or of
regulations ostensibly in the interests of health, which elfectually prevent the
development of trade. I am indebted to Mr. Coglilan, the Agent-General for
New South Wales, who recently visited Germany, for the information that
the wliolesale price of mutton there is over Gd. per pound. That country
imposes upon meat a duty of seven-eighths of a penny per pound, with the
immediate possibility of an increase to 2kZ., which is the duty fixed under
the new tarilf. In any circumstances this latter duty is prohibitive, but in
order to make it absolutely certain that no Australian mutton can be sent to
Germany, the line of steamers trading between Germany and Aiistralia, which
is subsidised by the German Government, is expressly debarred by its
charter from bringing into Germany fi'om Aiistralia fresh or frozen meat,
butter, daily produce, and cereals. Here, again, a shijjping subsidy strikes,
and strikes hard, against British trade. As if this were not enough to prevent
importation there are restrictions, nominally in the interests of sanitation, of
the most rigorous order. It is provided, for example, that in regard to
frozen beef, the breast, peritoneum, lungs, heart, kidneys, and in the case of
cows, the udder also with the lymphatic glands belonging thereto, must be
united to the carcase in their natural arrangement. Carcases divided into
halves must be packed together, and the head of the lower jaw with the
masticatory muscles must be imported with the carcase in such a way that it
can be seen at a glance that they belong to it. This provision would exclude,
as it is intended to exclude, Australian meat from the German market,
even if there were no duty. A similar system is now being proposed,

245

I tliink, iu Sweden. Tu Fraiu'o tlic practice in regard to frozen mutton Eijjfatli Day.
and l)eef is much tlie same as in Ciermauy. The duty on mutton 30 April 1907.

is lid. per pound, with a surtax of 25s. per ton where the meat is not

imported direct from the countrj' of origin? Hence, if any Australia7i Pkffekkm'al

mutton is first sent to Enghind and then on to France, it has to pay a * ,'.

higher duty. At one time there ^vas the prospect of (;onsiderable develop- ^ '^' ^ '"'''

ment in the tinned meat trade of Australia, especially with Germany,

but the importation of this class of meat is now entirely prohibited. In

France, tinned meats are allowed to be imported ; but the duty of 4*^. per

pound" for direct shipment with the other charges on the tins and on the

cases, brings the duty to nearly l\d. per pound. The policies of other

coimtries of Europe follow on much the same lines. Where a nominal

duty is insufficient to keep out our products, the agrarian party obtains

the imposition of sanitary and port regulations which effectually prevent

any importation of meats and dairy produce whatever. These details 1

fear are rather tedioTis to you, but they are very practical to us.

Mr. ASQUITH : These are the very things we want to get.

Mr. DEAKIN : They show what we have to face in other markets.

Mr. ASQUITH : In reference to what you have been saying, let me call
your attention to two or three figures as regards Australian trade witli
Europe. The total Aiisti-alian exports to foreign coimtries in the year 189J.
were 7,725,000L ; in the year ]1X)5 they were 17,G19,OOOL ; iu other words,
they had increased betAveen two and three times. In the corresponding years
in 1891, the Australian exports to the United Kingdom were 2o,500,00UZ. in
round figures, and in 1905, 20, 700,tK )()/., an increase of -sjith. It hardly looks
as if you had been blocked out of the Eiiropean market.

Mr. DEAKIN : You have been blocked, in our opinion, from anything
like your fair share of our natural increase. Apart from the purchases
which they make from us because they are bound to make them, there was
no reason why your proportion of our trade should not have been increased
also.

Mr. ASQUITH : I was dealing with the argument that you were being
excluded from foreign markets. Take the markets you have mentioned —
Gemiany and France. 1891 seems to have been a low year, and therefore I
will not take it for Germany, but I will take 1892.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think that is wool, chiefly.

Mr. ASQUITH : I have here only the total exports.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is chiefly wool.

Mr. ASQUITH : No doubt, chiefly wool.

Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is avooI, a great proportion of which
formerly came to London for sale, and was then transferred to the Continent,
but their own steamers take it direct there now.

Mr. ASQUITH : Be it so. I only want the fact. For Germany the
total was 1,770,000/. in 1892, ami last year 5,088,000L ; for France it was
1,857,000?. in 1892, and 5,762,000/. hi 1905.

E 48668. Q 3

246
Eighth Day. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Does that inckide minerals ?

30 April 1907.

Pref^tial Mr. ASQUITH : I tliink so.

Trade.

Mr. DEAKIN : Our wool and ores are taken to Germany to be snielted.
We mine, but imfortunately do not manufacture them. If you take out the
wool and the ores, you will find next to nothing left. The German manu-
facturers are using more wool. Their woollen manufactures are growing.
They have a high standing in metallurgy, and take our ores instead of
you.

Mr. ASQUITH : You could not send all that wool here, could you ?

Mr. DEAKIN : We send about 10,000,0001 worth. Formerly that was
bought here, or a good deal of it, for them ; now they buy direct.

Mr, ASQUITH : No doubt it goes .direct there.

Dr. JAMESON : Your argument wovld be that you cordd not send that
wool here if the German manufacturers did not come liere.

Mr. DEAKIN : There is a great deal I \voiild like to say on this point,
but feel I am saying so much already.

Mr. ASQUITH : Not at all. I thought you would not mind my pointing
out, in passing, that your total exports to foreiga countries have increased
from 7,000,0d0L to 17,000,000L

Mr. DEAKIN : No doubt ; Australia is very dependent at the present
stage of its development i)n the exijort of raw materials, and these are raw
materials. These are not affected by our fiscal policy or bj^ German fiscal
policy, l^ecause it does not pay them to do it ; but if tliej'- could deal with our
wool and ores as they deal with our meat or any of our manufactured products,
none of them would go into Gerinaiij' They are taken, at the present time,
in order that their manufacturers may be supplied. They turn our wool
into cloth, smelt our ores, and manufacture them into machinery, or into
pig iron and send it oiit to us to compete with your iron. Their tariff is
framed directly in their own interest. It is to their interest to get wool and
ores, and, therefore, they take them. It is not in their own interest to take
manufactured goods, and, therefore, they do not take either yours or ours.

Mr. ASQUITH : And, as you are largely producers of raw material, you
are not injured by the German tariff to that extent ?

Mr. DEAKIN : No, but we are injiu-ed in regard to the foods which they
decline to take.

Mr. ASQUITH : What do they do with your wheat ?

Mr. DEAKIN : They take some, but not much. Germany, like France,
is otiU largely an agricultural country.

247

Mr. ASQUITH : It imports a good deal. Eighth Day.

30 April 1907.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Germany imports more tlian France. Prekerential

Trade.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes ; but botli Fraucc and Germany, in contrast with
Great Britain, are agricultural producers themselves.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : There is increased importation of wheat every
year in Germany.

Mr. DEAKIN : I should think there would be owing to the development
of their manufactures.

Mr. ASQUITH : And the increase of their population.

Mr. DEAKIN : Yes, their popidation has increased very materially with
the increase of employment.

Mr. ASQUITH : I only interrupted to clear it up as we go along.

Mr. DEAKIN : Quite so. Fiscal qiiestions interest us a great deal, and
I was rather afraid how far I should travel if I did not limit myself to one
line of argument. I am speaking now from notes.

Mr. ASQUITH : This concrete part, if I may venture to say so, is most
important.

Mr. DEAKIN : Without going further into details or multiplying proofs,
it may, therefore, be broadly asserted that Australia obtains fair play from no
foreign country. Until a different attitude is adopted by such rivals our chief
hope of expansion lies in the further development of the trade we already
enjoy with the Mother Country. Although we receive neither more nor
less consideration here than they do, it would be well worth our while to enter
into an equitable arrangement with you to do so, if only because of the
business possibilities of that trade. Your market is a veiy valuable market
and an open market, while their markets, however valuable, in great
degree, except for raw materials and only for some of those, remain closed
markets. The next question is whether we are helpless, w^hether we have no
means left to us of protecting ourselves and helping each other against the
offensive action of foreign rivals. From the latest published returns it would
appear that Britain and British possessions purchase aimually goods to the
enormous value of 800 millions sterling. Out of this sum the share of the
Mother Country alone amounts to 5G5 millions, of which, it may be said in
passing, only 50 miUious are at present the subject of any duty.

A careful analysis of the imports into Great Britain has been made for
me, and from this it would appear that, excluding wool from the 5G5 millions
just referred to, 213,000,000/. represents the value of produce which Australia
could supply wholly or in part. At the present time, the import of Great
Britain from Australia of these goods is not more than 10,000,000L, while
produce to the value of 42 millions is obtained from other British possessions.
This shows that the share of foreign countries in British trade is 100,000,000/.,
that is to say, more than IC times that obtained by Australia, and between
three and four times that of the whole of the British possessions taken
together. As I have said elsewhere, in modern markets it is the seller who

Q 4

248.

Eighth Day. js the courtier — tlie buyer is king. That is the key of the situation. The
30 April 1907. possession and exercise of this huge purchasing power furnishes a strong
instrmnent by the courageous but cautious use of which justice couhl be
"''rKu'rE'^'^' secured to British goods and to goods of the Colonies, especially if the whole
,,, ,, ,'. , Empire %vere to combine as one. We need dread no retaliation nor employ
anythmg like the whole oi the authority which our xaurchasmg power carries
with it. A mere exhibition of readiness to use it on occasion would
enormously improve our opportunities, and to our minds your opportunities,
and might most materially muUiiily ours at the same time. So far as we
must import, it would seem to be true Imperial patriotism to iavour CJreat
Britain with our custom, and so far as Grreat Britain must import, that she
should obtain her goods from her Possessions beyond the seas. This Avould
be real and efFective patriotism with or without duties against foreigners. A
decay of British trade means the decay of British power and prestige, but it
is idle to expect that individual efforts alone can accomplish either unity for
the defence of our territories or unity in the defence of our trade. Only our
several States can act effectually and to act effectively, they must act together.

Preferential trade and retaliation against foreign countries which penalise
our trade are among the several means by which the Empire can recover its
Joss of ground and prevent further loss to its material interests. So far as
Australia is concerned the advantages of receiving preferential treatment from
Great Britain are too obvious to require demonstration. Allusion has,
however, been made to the produce imported into the United Kingdom which
Australia might siipi^ly, because an extension of our export trade is absolutely
necessaiy for us in the present state of our development. The j)osition of
Australia is, in some resT>ects, imicpie. It has an immense undeveloped
territory and resources, but a small population occupying that territory, and,
consequently, a very limited honl'e market. Moreover, as the Australian
population increases very slowly in proportion to its sphere and opportunities
its home market is not expanding equally with the develoi^ment of its
industries. Out of 2,000 million acres Avithin its territory there are less than
dl millions under cultivation, and this area could be added to almost
inimitably. Its total production, both of j)rimary and secondary industries,
amounts to 128,OO0,O0OL sterling, and of this quantity not more than
71 millions sterling are required for local consumption. It is, therefore, ])lain
that if further development is to take place, especially in the primary
industries of the country, one essential factor of that development is the
opening up and maintenance of outside markets for its produce. It is also
plain that the peopling and development of Australia makes for the
strengthening of the Emj)ire in men and means, in trade and in national
power.

The first resolution recorded on this subject by the Conference of 11)02
is an emphatic recognition and declaration of this all-dominating considera-
tion. The prominent politician here who said lately that you had greater
financial interests in the Argentine than in Can